Question about copyright

[RLP 1]

Hi. I am new to this forum. I am trying to find out some information and this place seemed like the best first step. 
My 11 year old son is gifted musically. He creates music with computer apps, adding in his own keyboard melodies, and uses instruments in the apps to enhance it. 
He created one melody that sounds great, added some animation, etc and hopes to one day produce all of the songs he creates. 
While playing one of his most recent songs, his aunt pointed out that the beginning sounds a lot like the song from Schindler’s list-a movie he has not yet seen and barely heard of. Now he is worried that he cannot produce it because people may think he’s stealing the song. 
Any advice? I told him I think it’s okay because the rest of it is different. So I told him I’d try to find out. 
Thanks in advance it anyone who has any ideas! I’m clueless!

[Bespin 8,480]

The "15 Second" or "8 Bar" Rule... is an urban legend.

 

The reailty is if you use a piece of a composition or sound recording that is copyrighted, you will need a license.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

19 minutes ago, RLP said:

Hi. I am new to this forum. I am trying to find out some information and this place seemed like the best first step. 
My 11 year old son is gifted musically. He creates music with computer apps, adding in his own keyboard melodies, and uses instruments in the apps to enhance it. 
He created one melody that sounds great, added some animation, etc and hopes to one day produce all of the songs he creates. 
While playing one of his most recent songs, his aunt pointed out that the beginning sounds a lot like the song from Schindler’s list-a movie he has not yet seen and barely heard of. Now he is worried that he cannot produce it because people may think he’s stealing the song. 
Any advice? I told him I think it’s okay because the rest of it is different. So I told him I’d try to find out. 
Thanks in advance it anyone who has any ideas! I’m clueless!

 

That would entirely depend on how similar it is. Temp music is used in just about every film score in existence, where the composer is required to write music similar to what the director/editors edited the film too. For example a lot of people often bring up the similarity between Williams' Star Wars theme and the theme from King's Row, with the first several notes starting off exactly the same.

 

If it's just a few notes, or sounds vaguely similar but not exact, then not only is it perfectly fine, but in the music industry this is literally part of the job of a film composer, to emulate other composers' work, as ridiculous as that may sound. 

 

5 minutes ago, Bespin said:

The "15 Second" or "8 Bar" Rule... is an urban legend.

 

The reailty is if you use a piece of a composition or sound recording that is copyrighted, you will need a license.

 

I don't think that quite applies here. And that's not entirely true, copyright in this case is kind of a gray area.

[QuartalHarmony 542]

The details vary from country to country, depending on the legal system and how aggressive the lawyers pursuing you want to be. Sometimes accidental plagiarism (as you seem to be describing) is acceptable to a jury, sometimes it isn't.

 

There seems to have been a lot of plagiarism cases in the UK recently in the pop music arena - google Harry Styles Plagiarism, for example. It's possibly a result of pop becoming more homogenized and market-driven ('give us a song which sounds like...') but I've read of some songwriters who are keeping a camera running whilst they write so that any later claims of deliberate plagiarism can be refuted. Whether this will work or not is a very different question!

 

Mark

[GerateWohl 4,343]

Two points on this. 

For such a famous tune like the theme from Schindler's List I wouldn't let count not having seen the movie. That tune plays on the radio, on tv, on YouTube, probably in the shopping mall. But it is not such an out of this world tune that it couldn't just be a coincidence.

 

But as someone who is writing songs privately for himself since almost 40 years, having experienced such similarities more than once, I would give the advice to change the tune. Shouldn't be so hard to do. Apart from the copyright question your son should ask himself, If he wants his composition to be associated by his audience with the holocaust.

Williams said once or twice, music consists of three elements: the composer (in this case your boy), the performer (here the computer) and the audience. So, the reception and experience of the audience should always be counted in, when writing or performing music. That is where such similarities might pay in more than any copyright question in my view.

 

In general such copyright issues should be avoided. If you discover, that a tune is already taken, change it. That is another leaning from about 40 years writing tunes. Not taking the first idea, but then try to make it something really unique and individual, this is where the real fun begins when it comes to composition.

John Williams also said, that these famous recognizable tunes are something He spends very much effort in. The first idea is rarely the best.

[Archive Collection 214]

None of this is legal advice:

 

There's a very good chance that your son has heard the theme from Schindler's List, even if he's never seen the film. It's a very popular piece, and most people have experienced it through osmosis, just like the theme from Star Wars, Jaws, Indiana Jones etc. Either way, this isn't a particularly relevant factor in accessing whether his piece infringes Williams copyright.

 

There's a very complicated framework surrounding music copyright, without a clearly defined threshold regarding what is and isn't stealing. A few borrowed notes can be considered "plagiarism" if they were essential to/recognisably part of the original piece. That being said, there are only so many possible combinations of notes, and there are always some points of overlap between musical pieces.

 

Keep in mind also that there are several Williams pieces which evoke/sound like other classical pieces. This isn't to say he is stealing - but a composers' work naturally reflects their influences. The ultimate question is: how similar is your son's piece to Williams' theme? If it's only a few notes at the start, he's probably okay. If its a few bars, then a case may be made for plagiarism.

 

Perhaps you can upload the song, and we can give you an opinion...

 

If the Williams theme you're referring to is the main violin melody, then the opening interval of Williams' theme (a descending perfect 5th) is one of the most common in melodic writing. With the exception of the minor sixth, all of the other notes in the first bar or so of Williams' theme are part of the underlying harmony/chord.

 

In simpler, non-musical terms, all but one of the notes in the first part of the melody are the most "obvious" to use. This isn't a criticism of Williams - these intuitive decisions are part of what makes a melody strong. It sounds good. For this reason, it is equally possible that your son's piece has intuitively used these same building blocks of melody to the same effect, without having any intention of copying Williams.

 

Upload the part that sounds like Williams' theme & a few extra bars to contextualise it, and you'll get a consensus from JWFan whether it is original enough or too close to Williams' piece.

 

 

[karelm 2,903]

Lots of great tips in this thread already, I'll just add, why not connect your son to a composition teacher who can teach him how to adapt something he might have heard musically...creating something more original through composition even if he knowingly adapted something from somewhere else.  For example, the guitar riff from "Smoke on the Water" how the famous riff is Beethoven backwards.

 

 

[Jay 37,322]

11 hours ago, RLP said:

the song from Schindler’s list

 

[SilverTrumpet 638]

Maybe they mean Oyfn Pripetshik?

[TolkienSS 405]

In order for someone to sue you or order a cease and desist, someone would have to recognize a similarity first, and as a general rule, I think 95% of audiences are too deaf to hear such short similarities once they're taken out of their original instrumental context.

And of the 5% who would notice, a big part doesn't care.

In order for an actual legal person to take notice, you'd have to become big enough for them to even just notice you exist.

Much hoopla about nothing.

[ciarlese 248]

It depends what your son wants to do with it, especially considered his very young age.
Also, his aunt may be wrong...

[Stark 312]

Could OP post the allegedly similar segment?

[TolkienSS 405]

3 hours ago, ciarlese said:

It depends what your son wants to do with it, especially considered his very young age.
Also, his aunt may be wrong...

 

His aunt is a buzzkill.

[RLP 1]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I really appreciate them.  I attached the song below. I think it’s different enough that it’s fine but my son wants to make sure he’s not using someone else’s work as his own. He might just scrap it or change it but I’m curious what the consensus is. It’s not too long. Thanks!

[Martinland 357]

Sounds fine to me...

 

...it's only the intervals between the first five notes that are similar (2x fifth down and then a half tone up), the remainder is vastly different and doesn't remind (me) of "Schindler's".

 

*thumbs*up*

[GerateWohl 4,343]

Thanks for sharing.

For me it sounds at least "inspired by".

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

On 03/10/2022 at 8:35 AM, Jay said:

 

It has the yearning lyrical quality of a song 

[Datameister 2,037]

3 hours ago, RLP said:

Thanks everyone for your responses. I really appreciate them.  I attached the song below. I think it’s different enough that it’s fine but my son wants to make sure he’s not using someone else’s work as his own. He might just scrap it or change it but I’m curious what the consensus is. It’s not too long. Thanks!

 

I'm no expert but I doubt he'd run into legal trouble with this. If he wanted to really play it safe, he could change the highest part of the melody, which does bring Schindler's List to mind again.

[RLP 1]

Thanks so much everyone for your feedback!