Jerry Goldsmith's HOLLOW MAN (2000) - NEW! 2022 Intrada

[Bespin 8,479]

On 01/11/2022 at 9:18 PM, Jay said:

Roger says:

 

"(...) We're still investigating, but most likely they're something you'll have to live with. Like me, things generally don't get better with age.

"

 

Living with the clicks, oh yeah! 

[Jim Ware 526]

It's not possible to reconstruct the end credits from other material on the set either - the credits use the film version of Linda & Sebastian which isn't present elsewhere.

[crocodile 7,984]

Listening to this now. This score is really really good. Very elegant blend of synth an orchestra.

 

Karol

[Romão 2,274]

I was a fan of the original album, but this is definitely a worthy upgrade. 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

The score in complete form is great, more quiet and sneaky cues make the listening experience less violent and intense and more hypnotic and insidious instead. Douglas Fake's master is as amateurish as the cover art.

 

Look at this: You see the first ten seconds from two different tracks. In both cases you hear rather calm pizzicato strings, it's basically the same notes and the same volume. However: The amplitudes in the screenshot differ conspicuously! I'll tell you why: The first track will get very loud and the second track will remain quiet. And instead of just leave that as is, the second track is kinda normalized on the Intrada release, so that the maximum amplitude equals the maximum amplitude of the louder piece. This bullshit is applied throughout the whole release, which makes for a very inconsistent and unnatural volume railcoaster. There is no volume compression within the tracks, but the tracks are compressed towards each other. Not the first time for Intrada to do this and I'm afraid it won't be the last time.

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

That's just how Doug does things. They really should hire an actual mastering engineer like every other label does for their releases, but they won't, so here we are.

[Holko 9,499]

Are there also performance edits that overlap too long and phase with each other?

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Don't know and I honestly don't wanna know. The issue I described is not easy to ignore and restricts the listening pleasure considerably, but it can also get fixed fairly easily.

 

11 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

That's just how Doug does things. They really should hire an actual mastering engineer like every other label does for their releases, but they won't, so here we are.

I wonder, how much longer they want to provide us with mediocre products and stay away from quality checks. Is it an economic issue to hire people like Mike Matessino and Jim Titus?

[Holko 9,499]

Well, it's not like Mike is low on jobs/projects, he likely even has a chance to pick and choose which releases he wants to do because he's involved in quite a lot of them, and obviously they're not all done in a week or two. I got the feeling that Doug just likes doing it himself, too bad that results in what it is.

[blondheim 1,157]

I think Holko’s right: he likes doing it so it’s going to keep happening. I try not to let it get me down or turn me away from releases I really want, even though it is something I notice and am bothered by on almost every release.

 

I try not to be toooo negative on here 

[Bespin 8,479]

To each sound engineer his working method, considering the source material he have in his hands. For me there's no problem at all. Calling this a "mediocre work" is typical JWfan.

 

I don't hear the problems that seems to irritate you. The problem is that you don't hear them either, you have to use spectograms to show us the differences between two masterings.

 

Beyond your tools and without two versions to compare, you have nothing to say basically. But that's okay, that's a part of the experience, but that's not eveything!

 

BTW I tried to reconstitute the OST, I think I have picked the right versions.

 

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

On 30/12/2022 at 6:53 AM, Bespin said:

To each sound engineer his working method, considering the source material he have in his hands. For me there's no problem at all. Calling this a "mediocre work" is typical JWfan.

 

I don't hear the problems that seems to irritate you. The problem is that you don't hear them either, you have to use spectograms to show us the differences between two masterings.

 

Beyond your tools and without two versions to compare, you have nothing to say basically. But that's okay, that's a part of the experience, but that's not eveything!

You have no idea what you’re talking about. This is EXACTLY the kind of issue that YOU DO HEAR without ever looking at a spectrogram. That’s the whole point of the complaints. One of the biggest goals in audio mastering is to make a product that maintains as much dynamic range as possible while also compressing the volume just enough that the listener doesn’t have to adjust the volume constantly during the playback. Doug’s “method” IS mediocre because he consistently fails to achieve this most fundamental of audio mastering goals.

[blondheim 1,157]

1 hour ago, Bespin said:

To each sound engineer his working method, considering the source material he have in his hands. For me there's no problem at all. Calling this a "mediocre work" is typical JWfan.

 

I don't hear the problems that seems to irritate you. The problem is that you don't hear them either, you have to use spectograms to show us the differences between two masterings.

 

Beyond your tools and without two versions to compare, you have nothing to say basically. But that's okay, that's a part of the experience, but that's not eveything!

 

BTW I tried to reconstitute the OST, I think I have picked the right versions.

 

Yeah, I never look at spectrograms and I can hear a difference between Intrada and other labels. I’ve noticed releases with Malone, Bulk and Matessino sound relatively excellent across the board. At first, I thought I was crazy but then I read that others were hearing it too

[Brundlefly 2,385]

57 minutes ago, Bespin said:

To each sound engineer his working method, considering the source material he have in his hands. For me there's no problem at all. Calling this a "mediocre work" is typical JWfan.

 

I don't hear the problems that seems to irritate you. The problem is that you don't hear them either, you have to use spectograms to show us the differences between two masterings.

 

Beyond your tools and without two versions to compare, you have nothing to say basically. But that's okay, that's a part of the experience, but that's not eveything!

That is not true at all. You hear the volume dips very clearly without any spectographs. It's like you turn the volume knob up and down troughout. The two screenshot just serve as an illustration of what is clearly audible. A quiet piece should be quiet after all, and not have its volume beefed up to the limits.

 

Besides, this kind of relativism of "each sound engineer" having "his working method", regardless of how flawed the result is, doesn't make any sense. There are objective measures for mixing and mastering an orchestral recording. Pizzicato strings playing at the same volume in two different tracks just shouldn't have that much volume difference on the final product.

 

1 hour ago, blondheim said:

I think Holko’s right: he likes doing it so it’s going to keep happening. I try not to let it get me down or turn me away from releases I really want, even though it is something I notice and am bothered by on almost every release.

 

I try not to be toooo negative on here 

I bought the release and I'm very happy about it, but I also wished it had been done properly. I will fix the volume differences myself and that's that.

 

However, I find it important to at least complain about the issue. After all, complaints are not the negative and destructive phenomenon that many people think it is.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I have to manually change volume on several files on some intrada releases. Congo comes to mind. I think i mentioned it other time. The ambient noise is so audible on the supposedly quiet passages that it is impossible not to notice.

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

That’s definitely my least favorite part about the soundtrack community. Anyone who mentions literally any flaw in a product we purchased is told to just shut up and be grateful. God forbid we have any standards.

 

A great example of this occurred when Disney released the Star Wars “demasters” a couple of years ago. Some guy on FSM at the time went out of his way defend those albums and insist that all the problems people brought up about them were just in their heads. As far as I’m concerned, that’s not just blind loyalty to the labels. It’s behavior that borders on outright gaslighting.

[Jurassic Shark 12,029]

I'll take ambient noise over that score!

[Brundlefly 2,385]

3 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

That’s definitely the worst part about the soundtrack community. Anyone who mentions literally any flaw in a product we purchased is told to just shut up and be grateful. God forbid we have any standards.

Sometimes it's like that and other times it's people putting their lust for complaints over their enjoyment of the release or score they've got. Complaints can be a great chance for change and improvement, but sometimes they are applied in a very hostile fashion - not excluding myself from that reproach.

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

Well sure, but my point is that there are always people who whine about the whiners and end up acting even more toxic than those who got them riled up in the first place.

[Bespin 8,479]

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

That’s definitely my least favorite part about the soundtrack community. Anyone who mentions literally any flaw in a product we purchased is told to just shut up and be grateful. God forbid we have any standards.

 

A great example of this occurred when Disney released the Star Wars “demasters” a couple of years ago. Some guy on FSM at the time went out of his way defend those albums and insist that all the problems people brought up about them were just in their heads. As far as I’m concerned, that’s not just blind loyalty to the labels. It’s behavior that borders on outright gaslighting.

 

I don't ask people to shut up, just to explain... and that's what you all did. I'm satisfied.

 

BTW, both OST and the new Remastered Score Presentation have an average DR of 13, it's not like if the new expansion featured an "in your face" mix.

 

I just ask if it's not a bit exaggerated to use "mediocre" to qualify a product or a way a sound engineer work (except if you are talking about the Star Wars Demasters), that's it!

[1977 1,743]

3 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

I will fix the volume differences myself and that's that.

 

Would you mind posting a brief guide on how to achieve this? Do you use Audacity or some other application? Thanks.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

I use Adobe Audition and when I try to fix those kinda issues, I check the sound by ear and by eye. In the end, it is relevant what it sounds like, but the visuals of Audition and Audacity can help you to objectify the evaluation of the sound.

 

I can post the ups and downs of the volume levels I have applied to the tracks, as soon as I'm done.

[Yavar Moradi 2,589]

Here's a cover alternative for iTunes/media player use, made by Spinmeister at FSM a few years ago when the title was still thought to be controlled by Varese in perpetuity... though it didn't end up being one of their Deluxe Editions, perhaps some folks might still like to use it?

 

[1977 1,743]

So is this remaster at Peggy Sue Got Married: DE level brickwalling? 

 

Did DF also master Intrada's Willow? If so, I might never unseal it

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Here's a cover alternative for iTunes/media player use, made by Spinmeister at FSM a few years ago when the title was still thought to be controlled by Varese in perpetuity... though it didn't end up being one of their Deluxe Editions, perhaps some folks might still like to use it?

 

I do already use it. Maybe he is going to remove the Deluxe Edition banner at some point...

 

1 hour ago, JTWfan77 said:

So is this remaster at Peggy Sue Got Married: DE level brickwalling? 

 

Did DF also master Intrada's Willow? If so, I might never unseal it

There is no actual brickwalling. As I've stated:

19 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

There is no volume compression within the tracks, but the tracks are compressed towards each other.

This means, you can fix this by just changing the amplitude of each track.

[Jurassic Shark 12,029]

1 hour ago, JTWfan77 said:

Did DF also master Intrada's Willow? If so, I might never unseal it

 

Would you anyway?

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Here's the cover with picture noise reduced and without the Deluxe Edition banner:

 

The more you look into the master issues, the worse it gets. There are cues combined in tracks that have wildly different volume levels and there is also clipping on a few tracks.

[1977 1,743]

16 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

There is no actual brickwalling. As I've stated:

This means, you can fix this by just changing the amplitude of each track.

 

So the opposite of normalising?

[Brundlefly 2,385]

3 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

So the opposite of normalising?

Nope, they normalized the tracks (at least it seems like this is what they just did with the quiet tracks), so that the loudest part of each track almost equals the amplitude peaks of all the other tracks (regardless of whether the peak is a slight string crescendo or a forceful orchestral outburst).

Trying to paraphrase it in abstract manner: When the volume of a track ranges from 1 to 10, it's fine and left as is. When the volume of a track ranges from 1 to 5, on this Intrada release they raised the volume, so that the volume reaches from, let's say, 6 to 10. The result of this madness is that pieces that remain quiet for their entire running time are now unnaturally loud. This can be fixed by just lowering the volume level of the affected tracks. The cues itself are not compressed and have great dynamic range.

However: There are some tracks that combine several cues at different volume levels, so these need to be seperated first, before you can change adjust their volume. After that you can put them together again.

[thestat 344]

It's the least of JG's Verhoeven scores but that is a high bar to attain in any case. The main theme is a gem as is the Isabella music, but I do find the crash-bang-wallop action a bit too uncoordinated. Which is strange since Jerry's crash-bang-wallop, especially in the 1990s, was so clearly detailed and structured. I should give the score another listen but was not massively impressed back in 2000.

[Jay 37,287]

Finally was able to purchase this release since its back in stock.  Looking forward to finally checking it out.  I guess I should see the movie again too; I haven't seen it since it was in theaters.

[crocodile 7,984]

Fantastic score.

 

Karol