Rings of Power The Rings of Power show discussion - spoilers allowed for all aired episodes

[Chen G. 3,940]

Yeah, I don't object to backstory: I do object to those kinds of backstories that demystify more so than illuminate. Creation myths tends to almost always do the former.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

That was part of the problem with the Star Wars prequel trilogy...the Jedi order, the Clone Wars, etc. we're all spoken of as myth and legend in the OT. There was no way the on-screen portrayal was going to be able to live up to whatever people conjured in their imagination while watching Star Wars....and it didn't. At least for me.

 

Shows with contemporary settings, and that are more character driven, especially psychologically complex characters like those in Breaking Bad, are more suited to a "backstory", IMO. How Saul got to be the person he becomes is interesting and even relevant, whereas portraying how Mordor became Mordor just takes away from the magic.

[Chen G. 3,940]

57 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

That was part of the problem with the Star Wars prequel trilogy...the Jedi order, the Clone Wars, etc. we're all spoken of as myth and legend in the OT.

 

The Star Wars prequel trilogy doesnt spring to my mind is particularly demystifying. At least, not in the same way that The Rings of Power is: the only equivalent to that may be the whole Midichlorians thing: its something Tolkien himself referred to as "scientifying" fantasy. But, really, the equivalent of what The Rings of Power is doing would have been to show us the genesis of the Force or the creation of the Jedi Order, etc...

 

Also, showing us Valinor: I think the power of the Grey Havens scene is exactly in that where Bilbo and Frodo go to is left to the imagination of the viewer. Now, appearantly, its this rather-bouldery grassy plain where Elf-children get bullied and where, en route, Frodo would have to hear Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn do some vocal exercises because reasons...

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

Myth

 

Demystified

[Chen G. 3,940]

Well, that's just the prequels being stupid.  You could concievably show a realization of the Clone Wars that wasn't stupid and a depiction of the Jedi Order that didn't make you want to reach into the screen and exterminate them yourself.

 

But something like Valinor or the creation of Mordor or the genesis of Mithril (who the hell even asked for that?! Never ever even crossed my mind!), that was going to be demystifying even if the realization weren't stupid (which it is).

[TolkienSS 405]

To be fair, there are so many great artworks done of Valinor, that I really wanted it on screen.

 

The writings of Tolkien are so strong and evocative that the myth reading it can't be teinted.

 

What is demystifying Valinor way more than that short image of it with the trees is Galadriel's awful journey there. The mystique of Valinor comes greatly from the fact that there are accounts of people going there and leaving it, but as a sort of metaphor, and you're left imagining how you actually get there. Since they are clearly marked as lands, but it's also a place of myth. 

Showing an actual divorcing wall is just a very dumb idea.

When Theoden says he's going to the Halls of his fathers, of course you don't show him knocking on a huge wooden door. It's metaphorical.

Just like in every movie telling Jesus Christ's life and death, you show him crucified, and not flying up the sky in big fluffy clouds until he hears harps playing.

I'm very grateful the writers don't have the rights to the Silmarillion, otherwise I swear they would take the phrase "Halls of Mandos" and show actual halls of Mandos.

 

I'm angry now.

 

How can you be so stupid as a writer?

I swear, sometimes you just look at people and know they're the reason there need to be instructions printed on shampoo bottles.

[jpmatlack 29]

51 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

How can you be so stupid as a writer?

I swear, sometimes you just look at people and know they're the reason there need to be instructions printed on shampoo bottles.

I think you’re being utterly silly and over dramatic, but really this is gold. Well played. 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

But something like Valinor or the creation of Mordor or the genesis of Mithril (who the hell even asked for that?! Never ever even crossed my mind!), that was going to be demystifying even if the realization weren't stupid (which it is).

I think it’s pretty cool so… now what? I suspect that all the bits I hated most about episode 6 (the blood and stupid action) are the bits you like most. So… now what? Is there enough room in this world for different opinions?

[TolkienSS 405]

53 minutes ago, jpmatlack said:

I think you’re being utterly silly and over dramatic, but really this is gold. Well played. 

 

I'm a fan of Tolkien, of course I'm more angry at it than the regular TV watching bloke.

 

But this is just baffling, that there are people, professional writers, who clearly (hopefully) read Tolkien's works, and apparently do not get the simplest of essences from it.

That's why I am still convinced these writers are not fans of Tolkien in any sort of way, but rather fans of the idea of taking a famous book and using it to tell their stories and ideas through it.

[jpmatlack 29]

Are you measuring your Tolkien love by outrage/anger? I really can’t make any sense of what you’re saying seeing as how the Internet seems filled with Tolkien fans who are generally enjoying the show, myself included. Unless you’re holding out your form of Puritanism as the only “real” appreciation for Tolkien?

[Faleel 5,326]

Shouldn't Valinor technically be reachable without having to go all green flash, since the only reason Valinor was hidden was because of the Numenor situation?

[A. A. Ron 1,736]

That's what I would've thought, yeah.

[TolkienSS 405]

The Valinor Vortex reminded me of Star Trek Final Frontier in a bad way.

[Pellaeon 593]

I haven’t been watching, but is it fair to say that nothing that has happened in Season One is from Tolkien?

 

I might start watching a later season if people say it gets good, but seems like this season is going to be a no-brainer to skip.

[Chen G. 3,940]

11 hours ago, Pellaeon said:

I haven’t been watching, but is it fair to say that nothing that has happened in Season One is from Tolkien?

 

[jpmatlack 29]

11 hours ago, Pellaeon said:

I haven’t been watching, but is it fair to say that nothing that has happened in Season One is from Tolkien?

 

I might start watching a later season if people say it gets good, but seems like this season is going to be a no-brainer to skip.

Well, seeing as how only like 3 things have happened, that seems fair… 

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

13 hours ago, Pellaeon said:

I haven’t been watching, but is it fair to say that nothing that has happened in Season One is from Tolkien?

 

I might start watching a later season if people say it gets good, but seems like this season is going to be a no-brainer to skip.

 

You have not seen what I have seen.

 

Spoiler

...count yourself lucky!

 

[A24 4,322]

The action is pretty good, so is the main villain.

 

However, the actress who plays Galadriel can't act and I can't stand the forest people.

 

 

And I'm sure Drax is mind-boggled about this guy's hair.

[Jay 37,249]

Who?

[Faleel 5,326]

15 hours ago, Pellaeon said:

I haven’t been watching, but is it fair to say that nothing that has happened in Season One is from Tolkien?

 

Some things have "happened" that are mentioned in the Appendices

 

Pages 1057-1058

Spoiler

Noldor learned Mithril had been discovered in Moria

Spoiler

1700 Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Numenor to Lindon

Spoiler

1000 Sauron....chooses Mordor as a land to make  into a stronghold

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

6 minutes ago, Roll the Bones said:

Some things have happened that are mentioned in the Appendices

 

Pages 1057-1058

  Hide contents

Noldor learned Mithril had been discovered in Moria

  Hide contents

1700 Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Numenor to Lindon

 

 

Spoiler

Mordor is created with a broken magic sword by an old man

 

Spoiler

Greedy Elves steal Numenorean blue collar jobs

 

[Faleel 5,326]

Just now, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

  Hide contents

Mordor is created with a broken magic sword by an old man

 

Spoiler

Mordor is made by some wacked up invented modern fantasy shit

 

[Pellaeon 593]

5 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

You have not seen what I have seen.

 

I have seen my share. But seriously, I think from now on whenever anyone mentions Russians, I am going to say evilly, “We prefer Russkie.”

 

5 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

...count yourself lucky!

 

I count myself among the Wise… like the real Galadriel.

 

2 hours ago, Roll the Bones said:

Some things have "happened" that are mentioned in the Appendices

 

As good an answer as could be hoped for!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

2 hours ago, AC1 said:

And I'm sure Drax is mind-boggled about this guy's hair.

 

Ugh, who keeps casting this jerk in everything.  One of the most repellant faces to ever grace a screen.

[Jay 37,249]

You've seen that guy in more than 2 things?

I've only seen him in GOT and LOTR

[A24 4,322]

To be honest, he does look like an elf.

[Chen G. 3,940]

I think he does marvellous work as Elrond, for what its worth.

[Richard Penna 3,662]

I think all the actors do a good job, it's just the material they're given is occasionally extremely dull.

[Chen G. 3,940]

It varies. I'm not feeling Benjamin Walker as Gil-galad: too self-conscious. Also Arondir is played too stoic by Cruz-Cordova, and Galadriel too beligerent by Clark. Can't stand the Brandyfoot parents.

 

But Elrond is a revelation! Now, if only he wasn't embroiled in a project involving getting Mithril Indoor Tanning...

[A24 4,322]

13 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I think all the actors do a good job,

 

They do, except for Galadriel. There is nothing behind her eyes and that's where most of the acting should take place. 

[Richard Penna 3,662]

She's definitely the actor with the least to do at the moment.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

You've seen that guy in more than 2 things?

I've only seen him on GOT and LOTR

 

I didn't really care for him as a young Eddard Stark, I just couldn't see it.

 

I do however, like him as Elrond. 

[Jay 37,249]

Yea on GOT he was nothing at all like Sean Bean's take on Ned, so it was weird

 

On LOTR he's nothing like Hugo Weaving's take on Elrond, but that's fine

[Chen G. 3,940]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

On LOTR he's nothing like Hugo Weaving's take on Elrond

 

Is he not? I feel he hits a lot closer to the mark than does Clark as Galadriel.

 

Perhaps closer to the sagacious Elrond of An Unexpected Journey rather than the grump of The Fellowship of the Ring, though.

[Jay 37,249]

Well keep in mind I've only seen 4 episodes so far.

I also haven't seen the Hobbit or LOTR films in quite a number of years, now!  I am planning on rewatching the LOTR trilogy this winter though for sure

[Chen G. 3,940]

I'm planning on it once the season is done, almost as a little "cleansing" ceremony.

[jpmatlack 29]

I highly recommend you watch one of the superb fan edits of the Hobbit. Never go back to the disaster of the trilogy…

 

There’s a video on YouTube with deepfake versions of Cate Blanchet and Hugo Weaving de-aged. They actually highlight how good the new actors portray these two characters in line with the films. 

[Chen G. 3,940]

1 hour ago, jpmatlack said:

I highly recommend you watch one of the superb fan edits of the Hobbit. Never go back to the disaster of the trilogy…

 

I love the movies as-is. At worst, I may fast-forward through a grand total of some three-four minutes' worth of little beats that I don't care for.

 

At any rate, I'm not a fan of fan-edits: I feel like they're more an outlet for budding editors than anything else, and I think there's only so much you can do without extensive access to alternate takes and trims. For instance, even though I think The Rings of Power needed to lose some storylines and to get to the point A LOT sooner, I would either watch it as-is or not at all, rather than watch someone's edit of it.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

I'm generally not a fan of fan-edits, but I make an exception for The Hobbit. I personally love the one-film M4 edit of The Hobbit, which has become my go-to version. The similar Maple Films version is also quite good, though the latter retains the Smaug cat and mouse game with the Dwarves that I can't stand, along with the unfortunate fight with the orcs during the barrel escape.

 

Both edits are quite professionally done and cut out most of the unnecessary bloat and silliness from those films and create a coherent, though imperfect, film that hews more closely to Tolkien's book.

 

Rings of Power has in fact caused me to reappraise The Hobbit films in a somewhat more positive light...just not enough to sit through all the Dol Guldur and other associated nonsense again. I still wonder WTF Peter Jackson was thinking when he actually filmed a scene where the Laketown survivors turned into a mob and try to commit murder. A horrible scene that's so antithetical to Tolkien that it would not feel out of place in Rings of Power.

[Chen G. 3,940]

44 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

I wonder what Peter Jackson was thinking when he actually filmed a scene where the Laketown survivors turned into a mob and tried to murder someone.

 

I know you dislike that scene, but within the circumstances in which its set, I thought it felt very convincing.

 

I do think comparing the two projects can be helpful: I always had a problem with the pacing of An Unexpected Journey: I think the other entries clip along quite nicely, but the first film moves at fits-and-stops really until we leave Rivendell. If Jackson himself recut it like he said he wants to do with King Kong (still his most glacial movie), I'd be game to watch it.

 

But The Rings of Power takes this to a completely new level: it takes five hours and twenty minutes out of some 8.5 hours - funnily enough, the equivalent to when the company leaves Rivendell - for the plot to really be set into motion, and then the event towards which it was set into motion (thwarting an attack on the Southlands) is resolved within one episode in a skirmish that's, honestly, a little on the small side, with two episodes still to go.

 

For all its bravura about practical effects in the marketing, I've yet to see a set of The Rings of Power that's as expansive as Laketown or Dale, and I would also contend that Khazad-Dum with its greyish colour scheme and many scenes set in dusty, squarish closed spaces, has nothing on the opulent grandeur of Erebor.

 

Then there are our characters: for me an illustrative comparison is the way Galadriel conducts herself in Numenore compared to how Thorin conducts himself in Rivendell. Thorin has a beef with the Elves (admittedly, not these Elves but still) that Galadriel doesn't have with the Numenoreans as such; and he's tricked into going to Rivendell, whereas Galadriel is rescued by the Numenoreans; and whereas the Numenoreans don't treat Galadriel poorly from the outset, Thorin is actually proven remarkably accurate in his suspicion of Elrond when he overhears him later.

 

Nevertheless, a few snide comments early on notwithstanding, Thorin doesn't treat Elrond with an ounch of the disdain that Galadriel exhibits in the Numenorean court, and he certainly doesn't come close to fighting with Elrond's guards or pointing knives at anyone. In fact, at Gandalf's advice, he shows Elrond the map that even the sagacious Balin doesn't want shown to the Elf. So while both characters are pigheaded, only one of them is sensible.

 

And lastly we have how the two function as prequels: for one thing, the fact that The Hobbit is made by the same filmmakers and the same creative team counts for a lot in my book as far as references and things go: they get to reference their own work, in a way that McPayne don't. But even beyond that, there are no creation myths dramatized in The Hobbit: if it functioned like The Rings of Power does, the prologue would start with the Arkenstone being used by Thrain I to raise Erebor from the ground and an explanation on the origins of Dragons and so forth.

[Edmilson 7,367]

6 episodes in, and I'm having mixed feelings so far.

 

The scale of the show and production values are truly impressive, but despite that, the narrative is a bit slow. I feel that the show has so many characters and locations that, despite the episodes being over an hour long, the plot has moved very little. Compare this with GoT S1, which also had many characters but the plot had an urgency that I think it's lacking here.

 

I like the Southlands part of the show mostly because it's the one where you can feel an urgency - these poor farmers are in danger with orcs threatening their lands. The rest I'm mostly indifferent towards, and the story is moving so slowly that I have the feeling the producers planned this season to be kind of a prologue for the story they actually wanted to tell. This is a really risky move, in my experience most of the movies or shows who set their first installment to be just a prologue ended up flopping later.

 

That said, I surely don't hate the show, and will watch the next episodes and the upcoming season. Bear McCreary's music is rather impressive, the kind of epic score that is an endangered species these days. It'll be extra sad if he loses the Emmy next year to another synth sound design-y score.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

Counterpoint to the idea that you shouldn’t continue watching something if you don’t like it…

 

I gave this show an honest go and over the last three episodes it has now completely lost me, however I will keep watching it

 

The reasons for this are twofold. Firstly, I am very interested in the discourse around this show and I do not like speaking from a place of ignorance, so it is important to have experienced the material in question. Secondly, I am a fan of the LOTR universe and am curious to see where things go

[JohnTheBaptist 57]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

But The Rings of Power takes this to a completely new level: it takes five hours and twenty minutes out of some 8.5 hours 

The plot starts about 30 seconds into the first episode, when Galadriel sets out to find Sauron...

[Holko 9,491]

5 hours ago, Chen G. said:

But The Rings of Power takes this to a completely new level: it takes five hours and twenty minutes out of some 8.5 hours

And in perfect prequelitis fashion, in the 3 hours that I've seen it gave me absolutely no reason to care about any of its characters or places or events other than attempts like "ooh remember this from LotR? Ooh she's in LotR! Wow, they go here in LotR too! Ooh he's like someone in LotR! Neat, isn't it, they will be the folks you know from LotR!"

[Chen G. 3,940]

5 hours ago, JohnTheBaptist said:

The plot starts about 30 seconds into the first episode, when Galadriel sets out to find Sauron...

 

Every story, in a sense, has a central endeavour that the main character has to undertake, and the plot can be divided into seting out on the endeavour, the endeavour proper, and arriving at the destination at its end. That's also the idea behind the three-act structure.

 

In some film, the characters sets-out on two "quests": Luke Skywalker  sets out to look for R2, but his real quest is only when he agrees to go with Old Ben to Aldeeran. The same with Galadriel here: she's on a quest to find and destroy Sauron, but her actual endeavour for the purposes of this season - the end of the setup - is when she leaves with the Numenorean fleet to assuage the Southlands.

 

Again, relatively speaking, its like a version of An Unexpected Journey where Bilbo only left the Shire at the point in the runtime where they leave Rivendell, instead! That's crazy long for a setup!

[Richard Penna 3,662]

7 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

The reasons for this are twofold. Firstly, I am very interested in the discourse around this show and I do not like speaking from a place of ignorance, so it is important to have experienced the material in question. Secondly, I am a fan of the LOTR universe and am curious to see where things go

 

I'm not 'fan' of Tolkien in any respect and have never read the books, so I'm watching really as an 'interested party' in the universe.

 

However, during the early-middle part of the season (3/4/5) when it was focusing more on Elrond and Durin it was losing me a bit, and it was primarily Bear's music that was keeping me afloat. Thankfully episode 6 got things back on track with some solid action and tension and hopefully it stays that way for the final two hours.

 

Ultimately though, it's the score that keeps me watching in detail as I want to hear the music in context before I hear the album.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

11 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Then there are our characters: for me an illustrative comparison is the way Galadriel conducts herself in Numenore compared to how Thorin conducts himself in Rivendell. Thorin has a beef with the Elves (admittedly, not these Elves but still) that Galadriel doesn't have with the Numenoreans as such; and he's tricked into going to Rivendell, whereas Galadriel is rescued by the Numenoreans; and whereas the Numenoreans don't treat Galadriel poorly from the outset, Thorin is actually proven remarkably accurate in his suspicion of Elrond when he overhears him later.

 

Nevertheless, a few snide comments early on notwithstanding, Thorin doesn't treat Elrond with an ounch of the disdain that Galadriel exhibits in the Numenorean court, and he certainly doesn't come close to fighting with Elrond's guards or pointing knives at anyone. In fact, at Gandalf's advice, he shows Elrond the map that even the sagacious Balin doesn't want shown to the Elf. So while both characters are pigheaded, only one of them is sensible.

 

Yes, it's a good observation. Thorin has more reason than most to distrust the Elves, and this distrust (and his own stubbornness) is the root of his demeanor towards Elrond.  But it's never taken too far. Yes, Thorin is stubborn and distrustful, but not unreasonably or aggressively so (well, perhaps somewhat unreasonably), and he never veers into the outright hostility that the character Amazon is calling Galadriel does.  I get where they're going with Galadriel, they want us to write off her hostility to this obsession with Sauron, but it just doesn't work. Jackson wisely never makes Thorin unlikable to the extent Amazon does (and credit to Armitage for playing these scenes deftly), and I don't trust the writers of ROP with the deftness to redeem her character.

 

In fact, for all of my complaints about The Hobbit, Richard Armitage's performance as Thorin is not one of them. While far from the book Thorin, Armitage realises Jackson's tragic-hero vision of the character perfectly.  One scene in particular has always stood out to me. When the Dwarves are having dinner at Rivendell, Elrond explains the storied history of Orcrist to Thorin, and concludes by handing the Elvish blade back to Thorin saying "may it serve you well."  The nod of acknowledgement that Thorin gives Elrond in this moment is played brilliantly by Armitage. It's a subtle moment, but to me conveyed several things at once...surprise on Thorin's part, because he may have feared Elrond would want to reclaim such a fabled weapon back for the Elves (and perhaps rightfully so, given Thorin found it in a troll hoard), along with respect...respect for the gesture, and mutual respect for the respect Elrond afforded him as one leader of his people to another. It's a brief, subtle moment in what is otherwise not a great dinner scene, but remains one of my favourites in those films.

[Chen G. 3,940]

49 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

along with respect...respect for the gesture, and mutual respect for the respect Elrond afforded him as one leader of his people to another. It's a brief, subtle moment

 

Thorin actually does this a lot where, stubborn as he is, he will relent to someone's better judgement, including:

1. Taking up Bilbo in the first place: "Very well, we'll do it your way."
2. Admitting that they survived the Trolls thanks to Bilbo's "nous" - when Gandalf points this out, Thorin gives a kind of "okay, fair enough" nod.
3. Taking-up Orcrist to begin with, when Gandalf points out "you could not wish for a finer blade."
4. Agreeing to into Rivendell. "We have questions that need to be answered", points Gandalf, and Thorin gives a kind of "okay" nod.
5. Agreeing to show the map to Elrond, which even Balin is apprehensive about.
6. Agreeing to go into the Mountain after Bilbo to rescue him from Smaug after Balin urges him to do so.
7. Almost agreeing to Bard's terms at the urging of Gandalf and Balin before Dain shows-up.
8. Agreeing to Bilbo's suggestion to retreat from Ravenhill.

Good luck convincing this Galadriel to change her mind like this...

[JohnTheBaptist 57]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

The same with Galadriel here: she's on a quest to find and destroy Sauron, but her actual endeavour for the purposes of this season - the end of the setup - is when she leaves with the Numenorean fleet to assuage the Southlands.

By the first episode she's already travelled the entire world. It's the most insanely fast paced show I've ever seen. I think kids these days just don't have any attention spans.

[Chen G. 3,940]

2 minutes ago, JohnTheBaptist said:

It's the most insanely fast paced show I've ever seen

 

It is insanely fast paced and insanely slow. Insanely fast, because the intercutting is frenetic and we never get a chance to settle down into any situation or environment. For instance, I was excited at the mention of a foray into the Northern Waste: arguably, if there's anything the films didn't give us much of its snow and ice - yes, there's Caradhras and Ravenhill but there was never something like Hoth or scenes beyond the wall in Game of Thrones or scenes in Doctor Zhivago where its just snow as far as the eye can see, and the audience can all but feel the frost biting at their face. Watching it, I was very dissappointed that the pace of the scenes never let the cold sink in: you can't build atmosphere when you're constantly busy pushing the plot forward.

 

Same is true of scenes in the high-seas - again something we didn't see before - and a sea monster that could have made for a cool sequence straight out of the Odyssey. I watched it with a young cousin of mine who went "Oh cool, sea monster!" only to be dismayed when, after one attack run, the sea monster was no more because we have to cut to other storylines and move the story forward.

[JohnTheBaptist 57]

I don't disagree, we've already burned through several seasons worth of plot. So I'm not sure how that squares with the idea that nothing has happened.