Rings of Power The Rings of Power show discussion - spoilers allowed for all aired episodes

[Jay 37,323]

‘The Rings of Power’ Showrunners Break Silence on Backlash, Sauron and Season 2

[Chen G. 3,944]

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In their Amazon pitch, Payne emphasized their show would be “Braveheart, not Narnia."

 

Right...

 

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They readily admit, for instance, that some of the first-season episodes lack the urgency fans expect from Tolkien adaptations.

"One of the big things we learned was even when it’s a small scene, it always has to tie back into the larger stakes,” Payne says. “There are things that didn’t work as well in season one that might have worked in a smaller show,” McKay agrees. “It has to be about good and evil and the fate of the world or it doesn’t have that epic feeling you want when you’re in Tolkien.”

 

Right!

 

Quote

Still, McKay notes they expect to work on season 2 for “another couple years" The first season famously racked up a bill for $700 million (including the rights), and the additional seasons are expected to cost considerably less.

 

So I guess we're getting The War of the Rohirrim before Season Two. It is interesting to see some more believable budget figures: so this cost around $400 million to make, with that budget spread across 8.5 hours. So its big, but its not that big.

[TolkienSS 405]

46 minutes ago, JohnTheBaptist said:

we've already burned through several seasons worth of plot. 

 

There is no point discussing this, but this is absurd.

 

Then I guess Galadriel should have sailed the ocean for 5 hours worth of TV straight.

[JohnTheBaptist 57]

This show is dead in the water if it takes them two years to put out another season. I don't think GoT went off air for that long until the last season.

4 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

There is no point discussing this, but this is absurd.

 

Then I guess Galadriel should have sailed the ocean for 5 hours worth of TV straight.

In the first episode alone, she grew from a child to 5000 years old, lost her brother, searched the entire world for Sauron, confronted the other elves and got exiled to elf heaven, jumped off the ship and swam across the ocean. That's at least a season worth of plot.

[TolkienSS 405]

10 hours ago, JohnTheBaptist said:

The plot starts about 30 seconds into the first episode, when Galadriel sets out to find Sauron...

 

That's a character Setup, and not a plot.

Galadriel loses her Brother to Sauron, so she vows to destroy him.

It's the equivalent of The Hobbit's prologue setting up Thorin's hate for elves and journey back to Erebor.

[JohnTheBaptist 57]

3 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

That's a character Setup, and not a plot.

Galadriel loses her Brother to Sauron, so she vows to destroy him.

It's the equivalent of The Hobbit's prologue setting up Thorin's hate for elves and journey back to Erebor.

No, it's the plot. We could have done with a lot more character setup, instead it launches immediately into her arc.

[Chen G. 3,944]

4 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

It's the equivalent of The Hobbit's prologue setting up Thorin's hate for elves and journey back to Erebor.

 

which is done more economically and, I would suggest, a lot more effectively.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

19 hours ago, AC1 said:

To be honest, he does look like an elf.

 

More like a weird off-putting gnome than an elf

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Thorin actually does this a lot where, stubborn as he is, he will relent to someone's better judgement, including:

1. Taking up Bilbo in the first place: "Very well, we'll do it your way."
2. Admitting that they survived the Trolls thanks to Bilbo's "nous" - when Gandalf points this out, Thorin gives a kind of "okay, fair enough" nod.
3. Taking-up Orcrist to begin with, when Gandalf points out "you could not wish for a finer blade."
4. Agreeing to into Rivendell. "We have questions that need to be answered", points Gandalf, and Thorin gives a kind of "okay" nod.
5. Agreeing to show the map to Elrond, which even Balin is apprehensive about.
6. Agreeing to go into the Mountain after Bilbo to rescue him from Smaug after Balin urges him to do so.
7. Almost agreeing to Bard's terms at the urging of Gandalf and Balin before Dain shows-up.
8. Agreeing to Bilbo's suggestion to retreat from Ravenhill.

Good luck convincing this Galadriel to change her mind like this...

 

So tell me this...why didn't Thorin take Thranduil's offer of help in return for the White Gems Of Lasgalen? Thorin says he doesn't trust Thranduil, and fair enough, but it seems to me he didn't have to, it was in fact Thranduil who would have to be the trusting one, by releasing Thorin without any assurance he'd live up to his end of the bargain (indeed, something Thorin failed to do with people of Laketown). 

 

None of it really made any sense from Thorin's point of view. Either spend a few hundred years in an Elf prison or be set free and then do what you please. Hmmmmm....

[TolkienSS 405]

Yeah, but according to the movie, in Thorin's eyes Thranduil helped in the massacre of his people.

That's not quite the same level as trusting Elrond to take a look at his map.

Thorin will swallow his own pride if it helps his ultimate goal, but bowing to Thranduil would have meant not only swallowing his own pride, but betraying the lives of his fellow and fallen dwarves.

[Chen G. 3,944]

2 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

So tell me this...why didn't Thorin take Thranduil's offer of help in return for the White Gems Of Lasgalen? Thorin says he doesn't trust Thranduil, and fair enough, but it seems to me he didn't have to, it was in fact Thranduil who would have to be the trusting one, by releasing Thorin without any assurance he'd live up to his end of the bargain (indeed, something Thorin failed to do with people of Laketown). 

 

Yes, I think by the time we get to Thranduil's, Thorin's decision-making proces is starting to become more than a little bit compromised (as well it should - he's a tragic hero!) but I think audiences can understand his rage and his mistrusting of the Elven king who, we learn from dialogue, refused to help Thorin's people not once but twice. We also know Thranduil is duplicitous: he tells the Orc he'd set him free and...well...

 

But I think after Thorin's brought back to the cell, its pointed out that one of his calculations was his awareness that Bilbo is still out there and working towards their release, which works to endear him to the audience again.

 

Certainly, by the time we get to Laketown, I think Thorin is in the wrong. For any number of reasons, I think Bard is making a lot more sense in that sequence than is Thorin, who is very clearly and cynically playing on the greed of the Master; and, of course, as we know, Bard is ultimately proven right.

 

Again, no such luck with Galadriel: we all know she's going to be proven right; whereas Thorin is proven wrong, and pays the ultimate price for it.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

But I think after Thorin's brought back to the cell, its pointed out that one of his calculations was his awareness that Bilbo is still out there and working towards their release, which works to endear him to the audience again.

 

I've always thought this must be the only reasonable explanation...Thorin is counting on Bilbo putting them out of the fire (again). 

 

Which I do think frankly does create some story problems given Jackson's decision to make the Dwarves more heroic, rather than bumbling oafs who constantly need saving as in the book.  In the book, it makes sense that they need Bilbo to save them, whereas it's a harder thing to sell in the films. I think at times it works, but a lot of the time it doesn't, and makes Thorin in particular alternate between looking like a heroic leading man and a less than capable fool. They probably could have used a bit more time on the script to resolve some of this, but I think mostly it's a byproduct of Jackson changing the focus of the story, and character of the Dwarves, so much. 

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Again, no such luck with Galadriel: we all know she's going to be proven right; whereas Thorin is proven wrong, and pays the ultimate price for it.

 Yep.

[Chen G. 3,944]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

makes Thorin in particular alternate between looking like a heroic leading man and a less than capable fool.

 

Again, he's a tragic character, so while he has a lot of aspirational attributes, he is also supposed to be foolish. He's cantankerous, haughty, stubborn, petty, neurotic, insomniac, isolationistic, self-deluding, secretive and all manner of very negative things, and those hamartien become more pronounced the closer he gets to his destination.

 

I mean, if you take a bird's eye view of his endeavours, they're mostly failures: he fails to repel Smaug, fails to provide anything beyond a pyrrhic victory at Azanulbizar, fails to slay Smaug. He only gets a small measure of success at the very end with the slaying of Azog, and he dies for his efforts, with Azog's aim to destroy his bloodline fulfilled. To me, that's good tragedy.

 

At the same time, he is brave, loyal, kind, willing to change his mind when pressed, and wants to do well by his people. I mean, early on he can't stand Bilbo - and its not hard to see why - but he risks his own life at least four times to save him. He's always the last to cover the others retreat. He means well.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

9 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

He's cantankerous, haughty, neurotic, insomniac, isolationistic, self-deluding, secretive and all manner of very negative things, and those hamartien become more pronounced the closer he gets to his destination.

 

Are you trying to tell us something with your Avatar, Chen?

[Chen G. 3,944]

I mean, he is the character I identify most with (not project myself upon - actually identify) in the cycle, a lot of it precisly because of these flaws.

 

Some of it is also a heritage thing: we all know Tolkien had put something of the Jews into his later conception of the Dwarves, and for an Israeli Jew, there's something very endearingly familiar both about their uprooted existence and yearning for home (honestly, The Misty Mountains ensemble may well have been the Israeli national anthem), but also in their grudges and secretiveness.

[Pellaeon 593]

On 04/10/2022 at 10:22 AM, Roll the Bones said:

Some things have "happened" that are mentioned in the Appendices

 

You make an interesting point. As I have said, I am not watching the show, but I am fascinated by how it came about and trying to determine if there is some kind of plan behind it. A little surprised to find that “the three things that have happened” in the show so far actually correspond to three consecutive points in the Tale of Years.

 

 

 

 

 

[Chen G. 3,944]

Weird, I don't see anything in there about how a Balrog and an Elven warrior poured their essences to control a tree that has the last Silmaril inside it before lightening hit the the tree and created Mithril, which is now somehow needed for every single Elf to tan in or else they'll disappear forever by spring... 

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

Don't forget putting a sword into a rock to create Mordor.

 

Usually it's pulling a sword out of a stone that causes all the fuss.

[Chen G. 3,944]

Its just such a flawed approach to prequels: to set-out to depict creation myths.

[Faleel 5,342]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Weird, I don't see anything in there about how a Balrog and an Elven warrior poured their essences to protect a tree that has the last Silmaril inside it before lightening hit the the tree and created Mithril, which is now somehow needed for every single Elf to tan in or else they'll disappear forever by spring... 

That's why it's apocryphal, genius.

[KK 3,307]

I watched the first two episodes and stopped. But then heard a lot great things about the last episode and decided to skip to it with a friend.

 

Genuinely cracked out loud at the ending...how does this kind of shit get past the writers' room?

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Weird, I don't see anything in there about how a Balrog and an Elven warrior poured their essences to protect a tree that has the last Silmaril inside it before lightening hit the the tree and created Mithril, which is now somehow needed for every single Elf to tan in or else they'll disappear forever by spring... 

 

Bhaha is this for real? Jeez...what a mess.

[Chen G. 3,944]

6 minutes ago, KK said:

Bhaha is this for real?

 

EVERY. SINGLE. WORD.

[Faleel 5,342]

20 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

EVERY. SINGLE. WORD.

Pretty sure the Balrog wasn't trying to protect the tree.

 

It was so bad even Elrond in the show was like "please don't"

[Chen G. 3,944]

59 minutes ago, Roll the Bones said:

It was so bad even Elrond in the show was like "please don't"

 

A little bit like Oscar Isaac when he had to say "somehow Palaptine returned." You can just see the gears turning in the actor's mind: "Okay, wow, we're really going with this? This wasn't like a hoax or something? Seriously?! Okay, I guess I'll give it a try and do my best to try and make it sound like a normal thing that people say. Here goes nothing!..."

[Jay 37,323]

The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power 1x05 Partings

 

I think I've figured out what it is that bugs me about Galadriel in this show: The fact that it's Galadriel!  She's such an iconic character from the book, and Cate Blanchett gave such an iconic performance of her across six movies, that's it's just impossible to watch a different actor play her SO differently, in a huge meaty role like this.  I realized last night that if everything about her role in this show was exactly the same, including the same actor, but she just wasn't Galadriel, instead a new made-up Elf for the show, almost all the criticisms about her wouldn't exist.  Yea, she'd still be abrasive and always scowling and ordering people around or whatever, but it'd be a new character, so it wouldn't be throwing us for a loop, it'd just be who she is.  Oh well.

 

This was a good episode because it finally featured every single character / plot line at once, nobody had to sit the episode out.  And they all had interesting new developments!

 

Oh, and "This Wandering Day" was a really cool song!  I loved it in the episode, Megan Richards performance was great!  I really did not enjoy the end credit version nearly as much, though; I'm glad the proper cast version is what made the Season 1 album!

 

 

Nori, Poppy, The Stranger, The Mystics - I enjoyed seeing their migration process.  The scene with the wolves was a bit wonky, but had the interesting result of more mysterious and unexplained magic from The Stranger and this time it affected Nori directly.  I'm really curious where all this is going!  The Mystics showing up at the crater where The Stranger landed was really awesome!  I think it's funny I only know to call them The Mystics due to the soundtrack release

 

The Southlands, Arondir, Bronwyn, Theo, Waldreg, Adar - I really like the whole thing they are doing with how some men will side with evil because they won in the past, and some will fight for good, etc.  Waldreg turned out to be quite the shit, and I'm curious to learn more about Adar.  I'm glad Thero FINALLY told Arondir about the sword hilt, but didn't really understand how it's a "key".  The final scenes of Adar's army marching towards the tower was pretty cool, though I didn't like that Arondir said that they were only a day, or maybe even hours away, because shouldn't it take like a month for the army to arrive from Numenor!?

 

Numenor, Pharazôn, Kemen - More division in the other area of men we've been following, with some believing Numenor should help in the Southlands, and others wanting to stay out of it - nice parallel.  Interesting that Kemen turned out to be a sabotaging little shit, and I'm not sure what Pharazôn's goals are other that taking control over Numenor to be his instead?

 

Elendil, Isildur, Eärien - Interesting that after volunteering, Elendil didn't let Isildur go on the voyage after all and he had to stow away.  I'm still a bit murky about what Isildur's dreams of the west are all about, and why he wants to go to Middle-Earth instead now.  Is it something to do with his mother drowning?  And I can't figure out what Eärien's purpose in this show is?  She sided with Kemen instead of her father and the elves in this episode, but why?  Did Kemen try to blow up the fleet to impress her?

 

Galadriel, Halbrand, Miriel - Galariel's training moment with the soldiers was pretty fun, especially supported by the fun music!  I find it hilarious that this lady washed up on this island in rags, and yet has had like 2 changes of outfits per episode since, and even gets form-fitted armor in this one  I don't really get what Halbrand is all about either; they've made him into quite the Aragorn knock-off, being the ancestor of a former king of men, but not wanting it.  So he wants to stay in Numenor instead... but what makes him change his mind at the end of the episode?  Are we supposed to know yet?  The glorious statements of the Numenor theme when the ships take off was great, especially because the episode episode ended with glorious statements of hte Numenor theme, yet Bear found a way to make it new and fresh this time.  Chef's kiss!

 

Elrond, Durin, Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad - Elrond and Durin IV continue to have the best relationship on the show, and Durin IV is easily one of the best characters!  I loved that he fooled a bunch of high elves into thinking the table was special!  I thought it was pretty cool to explain that mithril is not just a random mineral the dwarves found, but has a fantastical origin involving an ancient battle with an elf and a balrog over a Silmaril - that looked awesome.  I don't exactly understand why, now, the elves need mithril so they don't all die, but it's really no different from the invented bit in the LOTR movies where Arwen will die if they don't defeat Suaron.  Then again, maybe Gil-Galad is making this all up, and it isn't even true!  I guess we'll find out.  I thought it was a bit too quick for Durin IV to agree to talk to his father about giving mithril to the elves, but we'll see where it goes!

 

[Chen G. 3,944]

10 hours ago, Jay said:

I didn't like that Arondir said that they were only a day, or maybe even hours away, because shouldn't it take like a month for the army to arrive from Numenor!?

 

Well...

 

Movie magic to the rescue! 

 

Also, while episode 7 is not a bad episode in term of momentum, some of the things it plays around with are a hoot!

 

Spoiler

Celeborn is MIA since the War of Wrath: Galadriel is under the assumption he's dead.

 

There are three witches looking after Meteor Man. One of them takes a strand of Nori's hair and, per the preview to the next episode, uses it to assume Nori's form.

 

Isildur is MIA in the newly-created Mordor, just so they can have a scene of his horse coming to his rescue. You know, like they did in that movie way back when...

 

Theres a glimpse of Durin's Bane in the Mithril mine just before they seal it off.

 

The episode ends with a wideshot of Mordor, with a cue card that says "The Southlands" and then it changes to "Mordor".

 

[Monoverantus 363]

11 hours ago, Jay said:

The final scenes of Adar's army marching towards the tower was pretty cool, though I didn't like that Arondir said that they were only a day, or maybe even hours away, because shouldn't it take like a month for the army to arrive from Numenor!?

Oh believe me, I've kept very close track of the timeline ever since my warning bells went off at Míriel saying the expedition would leave "in 10 days", and the converging timelines absolutely do not make sense.

Still, I'm not fond of judging stuff until I have the whole picture, so I'm gonna stick to my guns and not post any review/analysis until the season's over.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

18 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

Still, I'm not fond of judging stuff until I have the whole picture, so I'm gonna stick to my guns and not post any review/analysis until the season's over.

 

Any criticism you may levy will just elicit "you need to wait all five seasons to have the whole picture!" from the ROP apologists.

[Monoverantus 363]

11 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Any criticism you may levy will just elicit "you need to wait all five seasons to have the whole picture!" from the ROP apologists.

I don't care about apologists or detractors. Waiting to form an opinion isn't a social strategy, it's how I consume art.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

10 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

I don't care about apologists or detractors. Waiting to form an opinion isn't a social strategy, it's how I consume art.

 

You consume art?

[Monoverantus 363]

You don't?

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

Well, no. I like to think I appreciate art, study art, watch, listen to and read art.

 

I guess it's just my own thing, I cringe when words like "consumer" and "franchise" attached to music, literature & film, like I'm buying a toaster or going to McDonald's. Even more so when it comes to Tolkien I guess!

[Chen G. 3,944]

I would take "consume" in this regard as the equivalent of fine dining.

[Richard Penna 3,676]

I'd guess that the suits love those words as all-encompassing terms for sticking around and watching things.

 

Episode 7 was good - you can feel the pain and suffering with more things being done practically, and this time Durin and Elrond's mini story was actually relatively interesting, if cliched.

 

[Monoverantus 363]

25 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

I like to think I appreciate art, study art, watch, listen to and read art,

All these are examples of consuming art. You either consume or produce (or technically you can do both if your consumption is what you produce, like streamers or reaction channels), and then you're free to call it whatever you want.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

So which of these applies to watching Rings of Power?

 

#4?

 

[Monoverantus 363]

We're talking about the same thing, who cares what we're calling it?

[Chen G. 3,944]

The joke around in Fellowship of Fans is that I'm pedantic... 

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

1 hour ago, Monoverantus said:

I don't care about apologists or detractors. Waiting to form an opinion isn't a social strategy, it's how I consume art.

 

27 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

 

 

[Monoverantus 363]

That's not being pedantic, that's distancing myself from your comment. You made this about the discourse, and I don't want people to assume I agree. If you had said something like "Anything positive you may say will just elicit "you're in denial!" from the ROP haters", I would've answered the same. I'm not interested in casting accusations either direction.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

16 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

That's not being pedantic, that's distancing myself from your comment. You made this about the discourse, and I don't want people to assume I agree. If you had said something like "Anything positive you may say will just elicit "you're in denial!" from the ROP haters", I would've answered the same. I'm not interested in casting accusations either direction.

 

Good grief mate. Carry on then!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

What are you, a communist?

[Monoverantus 363]

7 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

What are you, a communist?

As a self-described "consumer", I'm clearly a capitalist.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

18 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

As a self-described "consumer", I'm clearly a capitalist.

 

I know, I was asking Nick!

[Monoverantus 363]

Ah. Ignore me.

[JohnTheBaptist 57]

3 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Well, no. I like to think I appreciate art, study art, watch, listen to and read art.

 

I guess it's just my own thing, I cringe when words like "consumer" and "franchise" attached to music, literature & film, like I'm buying a toaster or going to McDonald's. Even more so when it comes to Tolkien I guess!

You do realize Tolkien sold his book, right? Like in a store, in exchange for cash money?

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

 

I know, I was asking Nick!

 

Actually, I prefer a system of government based on women (preferably watery tarts) lying in ponds distributing swords. 

 

[Chen G. 3,944]

Just now, Nick1Ø66 said:

Actually, I prefer a system of government based on women lying in ponds distributing swords. 

 

 

Padme meme: that turn green pastures into Mordor, right?

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

 

Padme meme: that turn green pastures into Mordor, right?

 

It's Blake's Jerusalem come to life!

[Faleel 5,342]

11 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Well...

 

Movie magic to the rescue! 

 

Also, while episode 7 is not a bad episode in term of momentum, some of the things it plays around with are a hoot!

 

  Hide contents

The episode ends with a wideshot of Mordor, with a cue card that says "The Southlands" and then it changes to "Mordor".

 

Spoiler

I prefer that they did it this way, instead of Adar saying "hmmmm, I know! Let's call it Mordor!" or something