Rings of Power The Rings of Power show discussion - spoilers allowed for all aired episodes

[Chen G. 3,940]

2 hours ago, Bilbo said:

I did like this Elendil. He seems like a decent guy doing his best for his family, country, and honour.

 

Also their take on Elrond - minor the 80s hair - is excellent, and Peter Mullan makes for a superb Dwarf.

 

The others...yeah. Dishonourable mention to Clark's overly-angry Galadriel and to Walker's pompous Gil-galad. It honestly feels a little bit like Attack of the Clones in this particular regard, with Clark playing the teenage Anakin and Walker playing Mace Windu.

 

Oh, and speaking of Isildur...

 

Look, he found himself a little Southlander squeeze to make Valandil et al with.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

there's something to be said for seeing the "Golden Age" of mankind in Numenore, of Elvendom in Lindon (the latter sadly reduced to Lorien-lite) and of Dwarfdom in Khazad Dum before it all goes to tatters

No, there’s really not…i.e., nothing to be said for it. Such a “golden age” is better imagined, not seen. Or at least, seen best by the mind’s eye.

 

It’s almost impossible to satisfactorily realise something like this on the screen once it’s been mythologised. I won’t say it can’t be done, but it would require a lot more talent than this lot has.

[Holko 9,491]

They already managed to ruin Valinor and the Two Trees minutes into the first ep.

[Chen G. 3,940]

8 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Such a “golden age” is better imagined, not seen. Or at least, seen best by the mind’s eye.

 

It’s almost impossible to satisfactorily realise something like this on the scree

 

I certainly think that's true of some aspects of the show: Valinor, most notably. The power of that final scene of The Return of the King - as filmed or told in prose - is precisely in that we're left to imagine the place that Bilbo and Frodo are going to. And that's something that a lot of late in the game sequels miss, too: that what happens after Indy rides into the sunset, after Luke defeats the Emperor, after Sauron is defeated, etc - is best left to the imagination.

 

I don't think, on the whole, depicting Numenore or Lindon falls into either of those categories. Depicting Valinor, yes. Depicting why Mithril is Mithril (WHY!?) yes. Depicting why Mordor is Mordor, yes. In retrospect, depicting the creation of The Rings of Power - yes. But putting Numenore on the screen? I think that's perfectly doable, and a few quibbles aside, the show did it fairly well.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 But putting Numenore on the screen? I think that's perfectly doable, and a few quibbles aside, the show did it fairly well.

Hmmmm. Somewhat surprised to hear you say this. 
 

The establishing shots of Numenor were pretty enough. Enough. They were…OK. But the street level shots were claustrophobic and uninspired. To say nothing of the Numenoreans themselves, who, when they didn’t look like generic background fantasy extras (or weren’t part of the main cast), were portrayed as an angry mob of xenophobic thugs. Just as I’m sure Tolkien imagined.

 

The portrayal of Numenor was one of the most disappointing parts of the show for me. Though unsurprisingly so. The great Dwarf realm of Khazad Dum also felt…small.

[Chen G. 3,940]

20 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

The establishing shots of Numenor were pretty enough. Enough. They were…OK. But the street level shots were claustrophobic and uninspired. To say nothing of the Numenoreans themselves, who, when they didn’t look like generic background fantasy extras […] The great Dwarf realm of Khazad Dum also felt…small.

I was thinking of the establishing shots. When we cut to street level, it’s a lot less impressive, mainly because of Kate Hawley’s lackluster costume design, but also the absence of any wider streets.

 

Khazad Dum also suffers from being greystone, which makes it look drab.

[Bilbo 3,709]

RoP season 2 won’t face any disruption on account of the writers guild strike.

 

ChatGPT isn’t in the WGA. 

[Bilbo 3,709]

Bear McCreary must be a big fan of the books because there’s no way the show inspired him to write some of this music. 
 

The Galadriel we see in screen absolutely does not justify that theme which I’ve found to be a real war worm. 
 

I think the vocals are where he falls down though. The Wandering Day or whatever it’s called is a bit too much of a pastiche. It sounds like someone bought a CD of Irish McIrish ballads in Carroll’s in Dublin on holidays and this is their knowledge of an Irish ballad. I don’t much care for it. His Celtic touch in general sounds too much like an American’s interpretation and suffers. I don’t care for Where the Shadows Lie either. It would make a great theme but I think the singer really struggles to match the lyrics with the vocals and I don’t care for her voice either which kinda sounds like a Shirley Bassy parody. 
 

But in general the score is very enjoyable. I would definitely buy a complete release of season 1 on CD if ever it were to be released. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

21 hours ago, Bilbo said:

RoP season 2 won’t face any disruption on account of the writers guild strike.

 

ChatGPT isn’t in the WGA. 

That’s not fair. 
 

ChatGPT would be a step up.

[Servant of Morgoth 20]

4 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

That’s not fair. 
 

ChatGPT would be a step up.

Sadly it's true

[Monoverantus 363]

On 03/05/2023 at 7:16 PM, Bilbo said:

I think the vocals are where he falls down though. The Wandering Day or whatever it’s called is a bit too much of a pastiche. It sounds like someone bought a CD of Irish McIrish ballads in Carroll’s in Dublin on holidays and this is their knowledge of an Irish ballad. I don’t much care for it.

A bit late to this, but this Wandering Day was composed by Plan 9, not McCreary.

[Jay 37,249]

But Bear produced and orchestrated a new arrangement after he was hired (which was after the original Plan 9 version was already sun on set when the episode was filmed)

 

https://bearmccreary.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-episode-105/

[Bilbo 3,709]

Not sure who composed matters. It’s not very good.

[Jay 37,249]

Well you made a post that was presumably about Bear's work on the show, and then spend most of the post talking about how This Wandering Day is especially bad, but since he didn't write that (and had not yet even been hired when it was written and performed), it sort of makes your entire post in retrospect not really say anything about Bear's work at all.  If that makes sense.

[Servant of Morgoth 20]

I'm the only one that thinks that Bear McCreary work's in ROP was one of the fewest  redeemable highlights or qualities of the show? Beside some wide shots like Khazad-dûm and Armenelos and some characters like Durin(both father and son) and maybe the Harfoot's storyline( which was objective good but also too much cheesy and maybe even pointless in the great scheme of things of the Second Age. All the rest at least for me was like meh, boring or infuriating 

But let me know if you agree or not guys

 

 

Also Fellowship of Fans revealed on Sunday that Shelob will be in season two of Rings of Power. I don't know if she will be a huge character or she will make just a small cameo

I really hope they won't take the path of the videogame Shadow of War when Shelob was some kind of skinchanger and she can take the likeness of a very hot chick(she was also some kind of lover of Sauron and she was betrayed by him)

But I think they won't do that. I would be ok if she will just make a cameo where she meets Halbrand/Sauron and possibly also Isildur. 

While I wouldn't mind it seems to me they are trying to check too many boxes from PJ's movies.. 

A tactic that really didn't work in season one since PJ movies fans were first in line to bash the show lol

 

On 29/04/2023 at 10:42 AM, Chen G. said:

With all that mind, going into season two, there's reason to believe:

 

Tom Bombadil and Shelob are a thing in this; there's a second Sauron actor, both for flashbacks to Adar killing Sauron AND for the Annatar scenes. The season ends with the sack of Eregion, in a siege that seems to involve the Orcs drying up a stretch of river to get to the walls.

 

So its not like the writers decided to completely change the way they were writing this...

Why again all this useless technicism? The mistery box around the creation of Mordor with the broken sword was already more than enough. About Tom Bombadil I don't know what to say. I understand they have the rights only to the characters mentioned in the LOTR, Appendices and the Hobbit but nobody asked or wanted to see a tv show with the full M.E. experience. This was supposed to be a tv show through five season mostly about the themes and the main characters that shaped the Second Age. So Sauron, Celebrimbor and above all Numenor with his rise, moral decline and fall. Harfoots, Gandalf or Tom Bombadil don't really belong here...

 

On 29/04/2023 at 11:19 AM, Chen G. said:

Its a shame, really. I do think this story is worthwhile: there's something to be said for seeing the "Golden Age" of mankind in Numenore, of Elvendom in Lindon (the latter sadly reduced to Lorien-lite) and of Dwarfdom in Khazad Dum before it all goes to tatters and we're left with the situation we find in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, of isolated isles of settlements in a sea of wilderness.

Numenor was entirely a mess in season one. I don't know how they're going to fix this. Instead of having the golden Age of mankind with gigachads numenoreans that made even the Valar tremble we got some petty human beings too afraid of a single elf stealing their jobs.. Jesus..

Elendil actor was good the problem is they remove all his background and they made him just a sea captain and a petty lord which is pretty offensive to Aragorn lineage..

On 28/04/2023 at 5:56 PM, Bilbo said:

I actually did sit down and watch this show this week to give it a fair shot. And man, my initial reactions were wrong. It’s actually worse than it looked. 
 

There’s very very little salvageable in those 9 or so hours of TV. It’s an absolute mess. For the sake of the writers I can only hope that it was butchered in the edit. There just seems to be bits missing all over the place. The pacing goes from super fast to boringly slow in places. 
 

I will say the Elrond and non canon Durin stuff was the most well done stuff but Galadriel… Christ. She bears no resemblance to anything in Tolkien or Jackson. And the show doesn’t know whether it wants to be Tolkien or Jackson. It’s schizophrenic. 
 

The money isn’t up on the screen anyway. You get a big wide vista and then cut to the corner of a room. The costumes are awful. Celebrimbor is wearing curtains and the hairstyles look they were inspired by Michael Bolton.

 

Galadriel, Elrond, Arondir, Nori, and girl Anarion all basically have the same basic character arc of “young upstarts challenge the status quo”. But the Arondir/Bronwyn storyline managed to fit every cliche in. And the Harfoot stuff was painful. It killed the momentum every time the story switched to them. And why do they have stage Irish accents? Is cringe worthy.

 

also the three mystery box characters. Adar wasn’t too bad to be fair but Sauron was painfully obvious and Gandalf is obviously Gandalf.

 

But it takes pointless liberties for no reason. It’s all squished time wise but 

 

Celeborn and Anarion are already dead? So how does Galadriel have Celebrian who in turn marries Elrond and produces Arwen and the twins.

 

Gil-Galad is also a total arsehole. He’s supposed to be a hero of reknown but he’s a total knob. 
 

But Galadriel is the worst thing about the show. For some reason the actress doesn’t move a single face muscle aside from in that awful slow motion horse ride. Another thing the show over uses is slow mo. Cheesy as hell. And Arondir’s slow mo video game stuff made was awful.
 

And it doesn’t matter that the show left New Zealand because so much of the landscape is just covered in cgi anyway. 
 

The Mordor PowerPoint thing was hilarious as fuck though. But the forging of the rings was anticlimactic. 
 

If it wasn’t Tolkien related it wouldn’t get a second season. It’s just a bad generic fantasy show that has the license to use Tolkien names. 
 

if someone didn’t make this nobody would want it to be made. 

I think Anarion will be in season two..He was mentioned in season one 

Galadriel, Elrond, Arondir, Nori, and girl Anarion all basically have the same basic character arc of “young upstarts challenge the status quo”. LOL this made me laugh but yep the're taking a very modern and light approach. Nobility, lineage and titles these are things very important in Tolkien's universe..

[Chen G. 3,940]

3 hours ago, Servant of Morgoth said:

Also Fellowship of Fans revealed on Sunday that Shelob will be in season two of Rings of Power. I don't know if she will be a huge character or she will make just a small cameo

 

What we didn't get to mention in the video is that Ungoliant will feature, if only by name. My guess is Shelob is encountered by a character (Sauron, most likely) who can distinguish her for the audience as "Shelob, spawn of Ungoliant" in dialogue.

 

Its...yeah...

 

Also Tom Bombadil.

 

Also reportedly a separate Annatar.

[Monoverantus 363]

12 hours ago, Servant of Morgoth said:

But let me know if you agree or not guys

I had apparently written a whole list of praises and grievances back after the finale that I forgot to post, so here it is, if anyone's interested:

 

Aesthetics

PROS: Basically all of it. The major locations are beautiful, the score is amazing, the casting is (mostly) great.

CONS: Short haired elves (Arondir is the only one who pulls it off)

A few kinda weird creatures/armors/costumes (troll and warg, Galadriel’s first 2 armors, the Mystics)

Some disorienting time jumps between scenes

 

Meaning

PROS: Aspirational male friendship (Elrond and Durin)

Interesting takes on Tolkien's text (The inherited sin of the Low Men, do Orcs have souls?, Sauron’s repentance)

CONS: Mangled moral messages (“Nobody walks alone”, but stragglers are left behind?, Elrond’s oath)

Weird twists on Tolkien’s text (Mithril tanning???, the gift of Gil-Galad, de-mystifying of mithril and the rings)

Unnecessarily modern tropes (numerous upstart protagonists that defy their rigid societies, endless rallying speeches)

 

Entertainment

PROS: (Mostly) good performances

Some well-written characters (Adar, Elrond/Durin/Disa)

Some scenes with good pathos (Proudfellows scene, Arondir cutting down the tree, Elrond and Durin)

CONS: Endless mystery boxes (Who is Sauron? Who is The Stranger? Who is Halbrand? Who is Adar? What are the Mystics? What is the sword? Who’s Theo’s father? What’s in the box? What’s in the pouch? What’s in the tower? Why was Halbrand injured?)

Nonsensical plots (The Stranger's amnesia, Mithril plot, Elrond’s oath, the creation of Mordor)

Badly written/uninteresting characters (Galadriel, Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, Elendil and co)

Problems with timeline/teleporting (Southlands, travel to Eregion)

Corny PJ LotR references

[Jay 37,249]

Nice list, agree with a lot of it!

 

One question though:

 

57 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

Corny PJ LotR references

 

What is this referring to, exactly?

[Monoverantus 363]

21 minutes ago, Jay said:

What is this referring to, exactly?

Corny references to Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films.

[Jay 37,249]

Right, that's what I'm asking - I don't remember any references to the films in the show

What were they, exactly?

[Monoverantus 363]

23 minutes ago, Jay said:

Right, that's what I'm asking - I don't remember any references to the films in the show

Really? I thought Elrond's "salted pork and malt beer" line and The Stranger's "always follow your nose" lines stood out particularly, almost literally winking at the audience.

[Jay 37,249]

Ah yes, I remember the nose line now!

 

What else is there?

[Monoverantus 363]

Just now, Jay said:

What else is there?

There's plenty of stuff that feel directly inspired by the movies. Sauron's armor, Nori and Poppy being a gender-swapped Frodo and Sam, the Stranger's burst of emotion in Ep 2 is very reminiscent of Gandalf's "Don't take me for a conjurer of cheap tricks" moment, The Mystics look like Ringwraiths for a moment, Galadriel shouting "Noro lim" to speed up her horse (although she otherwise exclusively speaks Quenya), Aragorn's ancestor having very close relationship to a horse (you bet Berek and Isildur is gonna re-enact Brego and Aragorn's scene from Two Towers in Season 2).

[Chen G. 3,940]

3 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

Corny PJ LotR references

 

Making a list would be fun. I'll start with what I can think of off the top of my head and update it as I go along:

 

1. The overall aesthetic is as close to Jackson's as the filmmakers legally could do.
2. Beginning with a prologue with vocals (of Galadriel's no less) over black and aethereal choir.
3. Middle Earth is filled "with strange creatures beyond count"
4. Many of the designs - Balrog, Fell Beast, Sauron in armour, Narsil, Aeglos - are as close to Jackson as Amazon could do without getting sued.
5. Others like Lindon or Durnost come across as the two-dime versions of other Jackson designs like Lorien and Barad Dur.
6. The pains of the First Age "passed out of thought and mind"
7. "What delivry is this?" - "What is this new devliry?"
8. Some shots and sequences of shots are quite similar: surely more than one Middle Earth-themed propery can have a fight with a Troll, but in the course of the fight here, there's a POV shot from one of the Elves on the ground as the Troll is about to stomp him just like Sam in The Fellowship of the Ring.
9. Both Galadriel and Arondir inherit the Legolas Superhero Moments^TM
10. I'd say the timbral resemblences Bear went for with his score count, as well.
11. A lot of filming locations from the films reappear as other places in Middle Earth: the entrance to Moria is now at the High Fells, and there's a whole travel montage of the Harfoots that seems to go from the Plains of Rohan, through Rhudaur, Midgewater Marshes, and finally the Woods of Ithilien. Greenwood is now Trollshaws.
12. All the Harfoot stuff is one big throwback, replete with cute English names (nary a Deagol to be found!) and all imbued with a kind of saccharine, derpy cutsiness. Nori, in particular, is a kind of cross of Bilbo with Luke Skywalker.
13. Elrond sitting in the tree branches recreates the way we meet Frodo in Fellowship of the Ring.
14. Magic Fireworks in Lindon
15. The basic premise: one outgoing character fears Sauron's return while the others are complacent, is exactly the same as An Unexpected Journey.
16. "You will linger here, an outcast, poisoned in dark whispers and dreams" as compared to "here you will dwell, bound to your grief."
17. The iconography of Rohan has been dispersed between the Southlanders and the Numenoreans, replete with horse-head sword hilts and a deep connection between Isildur and a horse who will invariably come to his aid, Brego-like.
18. Requisite mortal-and-immortal romance.
19. "She had passed beyond my sight"
20. The Elf ship's approach to Valinor is very much a visualization of Gandalf's "The Grey rain curtain of this world rolls back [...] and then you see it: White shores."
21. Speaking of Gandalf... 
22. "Able to birth a flame [...] as pure as starlight" (you mean, like the Gems of Lasgalen, Celebrimbor?)
23. Elrond and Durin's dynamic very much plays on Gimli and Legolas
24. "Salted pork and enough malt beer to fill the Anduin."
25. Even though its ultimately a hoax, Halbrand is played as an Aragorn-type, and Ostirith as Helm's Deep.
26. The prow of the ship at the front of the Numenorean palace.
27. The beacon that's lit when Elendil's ship enters Numenore reminds me of Amon Din.
28. Sadoc opens his speech almost exactly like Bilbo's Farewell Party Speech.
29. Halbrand's people "are scattered. Leaderless."
30. "Keept it. Token of our friendship."
31. The Palantir.
32. The creation of Mordor is someone's idea of the reverse of the destruction of the Ring.
33. The Palantir "show many visions. Some that will never come to pass."
34. Okay, this one is really stretching it, but Elrond's story of how he saved Durin FROM THREE TROLLS...
35. In remarking of the Numenorean cadets' swordmanship skills, Galadriel manages to both namedrop the Stone Giants AND have the same kind of "talking in Elvish over the head of the warriors" that Legolas and Aragorn do at Helm's Deep.
36. Although the prospect of a siege at Ostirith in the style of Helm's Deep proves to be a red herring, the battle at Tirharad still has many of the visual cues of Helm's Deep, replete with cutaways to worried women and children indoors. Also, the Numenorean cavarly charge REALLY wants to be the ride of the rohirrim.
37. Bronwyn gives Theo a speech along the lines of Sam's peroration at the end of The Two Towers.
38. "Noro lim" to the rescue!
39. Galadriel recounts the backstory of the Orcs along the same lines as Saruman did.
40. "the Secret Fire" is mentioned
41. Galadriel and Theo hides from Orcs under a tree stump bringing to mind the same shot composition as Jackson (and Bakshi).
42. While they're at it, Galadriel gives Theo a speech very much along the lines that Gandalf gives Frodo in Moria.
43. THAT BALROG!
44. Four Hobbits set out on the quest to help Gandalf...
45. When Gandalf banishes the Mystics, they managed to call-back both to the imagery of the Moth AND the Ringwraiths. Even the magic itself reminds me of Gandalf's fight with the Necromancer.
46. When Sauron tries to convince Galadriel to join him (and probably bump uglies along the way) he tells her he'll make her "stronger than the foundations of the earth."
47. "We can save this Middle Earth" is a mirror of "We shall rule this Middle Earth."
48. "Always follow your nose"

[Richard Penna 3,662]

With all those references and winks to PJ fans, what's the bet that the Stranger will come across a large, inconveniently placed monster while on a precarious bridge, and inform it that it may not proceed?

[Monoverantus 363]

Knew you'd be up to the task 

1 minute ago, Richard Penna said:

With all those references and winks to PJ fans, what's the bet that the Stranger will come across a large, inconveniently placed monster while on a precarious bridge, and inform it that it may not proceed?

Better yet, he's gonna need to cross a bridge guarded by a monster, prompting him to shout "You will let me pass!" so that everybody's gonna call it clever.

[Servant of Morgoth 20]

11 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

With all those references and winks to PJ fans, what's the bet that the Stranger will come across a large, inconveniently placed monster while on a precarious bridge, and inform it that it may not proceed?

The showrunners and the writers of ROP haven't realise yet that despite all these references, winks,callbacks, boxes checked(call them whatever you prefer) to PJ's trilogy the first in line that hated and bashed the show are the so called PJ's movies fans..

[TolkienSS 405]

Just now, Servant of Morgoth said:

The showrunners and the writers of ROP haven't realise yet that despite all these references, winks,callbacks, boxes checked(call them whatever you prefer) to PJ's trilogy the first in line that hated and bashed the show are the so called PJ's movies fans..

 

So, movie fans.

[Jay 37,249]

OK you guys are really, really reaching with some of these "references"

[Chen G. 3,940]

I'm still organising my thoughts! I may well dismiss some of them later on. But by and large I think they're mostly on-point as of yet.

[Servant of Morgoth 20]

22 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

So, movie fans.

Not only them. The book fans are second in line. I don't as a book reader really hate Rings of Power. I find it just tedious, boring, bad written(for the most part of it) with infuriating or not compelling enough characters.. And with too many unrequired changes from the source material they got the rights to see all Elendil reduced to a petty lord and a random sea captain or Numenoreans being petty instead of prideful or just the chronological order of the forging of the rings or Sauron reduced and humbled to a middle man 

2 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

I had apparently written a whole list of praises and grievances back after the finale that I forgot to post, so here it is, if anyone's interested:

 

Aesthetics

PROS: Basically all of it. The major locations are beautiful, the score is amazing, the casting is (mostly) great.

CONS: Short haired elves (Arondir is the only one who pulls it off)

A few kinda weird creatures/armors/costumes (troll and warg, Galadriel’s first 2 armors, the Mystics)

Some disorienting time jumps between scenes

 

Meaning

PROS: Aspirational male friendship (Elrond and Durin)

Interesting takes on Tolkien's text (The inherited sin of the Low Men, do Orcs have souls?, Sauron’s repentance)

CONS: Mangled moral messages (“Nobody walks alone”, but stragglers are left behind?, Elrond’s oath)

Weird twists on Tolkien’s text (Mithril tanning???, the gift of Gil-Galad, de-mystifying of mithril and the rings)

Unnecessarily modern tropes (numerous upstart protagonists that defy their rigid societies, endless rallying speeches)

 

Entertainment

PROS: (Mostly) good performances

Some well-written characters (Adar, Elrond/Durin/Disa)

Some scenes with good pathos (Proudfellows scene, Arondir cutting down the tree, Elrond and Durin)

CONS: Endless mystery boxes (Who is Sauron? Who is The Stranger? Who is Halbrand? Who is Adar? What are the Mystics? What is the sword? Who’s Theo’s father? What’s in the box? What’s in the pouch? What’s in the tower? Why was Halbrand injured?)

Nonsensical plots (The Stranger's amnesia, Mithril plot, Elrond’s oath, the creation of Mordor)

Badly written/uninteresting characters (Galadriel, Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, Elendil and co)

Problems with timeline/teleporting (Southlands, travel to Eregion)

Corny PJ LotR references

 

About the aesthetics the things that I didn't like the most are: most of the armors( not just because it's plate armor but because some pieces looked very poor crafted see Numenor's armor or the cerimonial armors of Galadriel and the rest of her company and most of the wigs.

Also not really the biggest fan of this Jackson concept of city-state

The kingdoms overhall seems very small..

2 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

I had apparently written a whole list of praises and grievances back after the finale that I forgot to post, so here it is, if anyone's interested:

 

Aesthetics

PROS: Basically all of it. The major locations are beautiful, the score is amazing, the casting is (mostly) great.

CONS: Short haired elves (Arondir is the only one who pulls it off)

A few kinda weird creatures/armors/costumes (troll and warg, Galadriel’s first 2 armors, the Mystics)

Some disorienting time jumps between scenes

 

Meaning

PROS: Aspirational male friendship (Elrond and Durin)

Interesting takes on Tolkien's text (The inherited sin of the Low Men, do Orcs have souls?, Sauron’s repentance)

CONS: Mangled moral messages (“Nobody walks alone”, but stragglers are left behind?, Elrond’s oath)

Weird twists on Tolkien’s text (Mithril tanning???, the gift of Gil-Galad, de-mystifying of mithril and the rings)

Unnecessarily modern tropes (numerous upstart protagonists that defy their rigid societies, endless rallying speeches)

 

Entertainment

PROS: (Mostly) good performances

Some well-written characters (Adar, Elrond/Durin/Disa)

Some scenes with good pathos (Proudfellows scene, Arondir cutting down the tree, Elrond and Durin)

CONS: Endless mystery boxes (Who is Sauron? Who is The Stranger? Who is Halbrand? Who is Adar? What are the Mystics? What is the sword? Who’s Theo’s father? What’s in the box? What’s in the pouch? What’s in the tower? Why was Halbrand injured?)

Nonsensical plots (The Stranger's amnesia, Mithril plot, Elrond’s oath, the creation of Mordor)

Badly written/uninteresting characters (Galadriel, Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, Elendil and co)

Problems with timeline/teleporting (Southlands, travel to Eregion)

Corny PJ LotR references

Agreed

Instead of losing time with the creation of Mordor show Halbrand travelling across Middle Earth winning the allegiance of many powerful warlords and different folks, using the rivalry between the different lords of the Easterlings for example to his advantage or if you wanna show his moment of repentance showing him teaching men differents skills in agriculture or crafting or smithing.. 

Aspirin Mithril pills subplot  was also awful.. Not the biggest fan of Gil Galad. He is a jerk and also I don't understand why they made him the only one who can decide who is worthy or not of  going back to Aman.. 

[Chen G. 3,940]

2 hours ago, Servant of Morgoth said:

Also not really the biggest fan of this Jackson concept of city-state

 

 

That's not totally fair to Jackson. Inasmuch as we don't see another major Hobbit settlement beside Hobbiton, we see a lot of countryside that's part of the Shire and some isolated Hobbit homes or wind mills and tended fields across it. And we're told about settlements like Hardbottle and Frogmorton.

 

Gondor is mostly centered in Minas Tirith, but we do see Osgiliath, Harlond, a glimpse of Pelargir, Henneth Annun, the beacons and lots of ruins that suggest Gondor's past reach, as well as forts that had been wrested from Gondor like Minas Morgul; and again we're told about further settlements like Cair Andros.

 

Rohan is perhaps the most expansive: we see Edoras, Dunharrow, Helm's Deep, at least one village, and lots of the countryside.

 

The Woodland Realm is mostly just Thranduil's halls, but we see the Elven gate, and road the remains of a bridge, and there are Elvish paths all alongside the forest river, too.

 

Meanwhile, Erebor is just one mountain, but it has all the variety of an entire country: it has big, chiseled halls alongside large veritiginous spaces of flying walkways and parts that are live rock, as small as smaller quarters and corridors, not to mention all the outside part of the mountain.

[Monoverantus 363]

2 hours ago, Servant of Morgoth said:

Instead of losing time with the creation of Mordor show Halbrand travelling across Middle Earth winning the allegiance of many powerful warlords and different folks, using the rivalry between the different lords of the Easterlings for example to his advantage or if you wanna show his moment of repentance showing him teaching men differents skills in agriculture or crafting or smithing.. 

Apart from Celebrimbor/Elrond (which I’ve already ranted enough about) Halbrand is IMO the show’s single most misguided idea. Every single step of his season-long journey is a contrivance built on another contrivance.

- He needs to meet Galadriel, so they both end up on a random-ass raft in the middle of the sea purely out of chance (as far as we know).

- He needs to bond with Galadriel on her quest to the Southlands, so:

  1: though he spends the whole season unwilling to talk about his past, he for some reason tells her exactly the amount of information that she needs for the plot to happen (a hint that her worries about Sauron’s return aren’t unfounded).

  2: he just happens to have found (and kept!) a pouch with a sigil that causes Galadriel to be suspicious of his identity.

  3: she then goes to a library to learn exactly the amount of information that she needs for the plot to happen (that the sigil is proof that he is the King of the Southlands)

- Then, after she’s convinced him to follow her to the Southlands (which I’m honestly okay with) and fought the battle, he needs to be in Eregion so he can be part of the forging of the Rings, so he gets a wound that is simultaneously so bad that he needs elvish medicine, yet not bad enough to prevent him from making the 6-day ride to get there.

- Then he needs to influence Celebrimbor, so he just happens to wander into his forge and meet him after one quick scene of healing.

- And then, she needs to learn who he actually is, so she goes to another library to learn exactly the amount of information that she needs for the plot to happen (proof that he isn’t the King of the Southlands).

No matter how interesting the core idea of exploring Sauron’s possible redemption is, this baffling series of contrivances soaks all the intrigue and meaning out of it. It even affects the other storylines, like the completely unnecessary “Is the Stranger Sauron?” plot, which only exists to not make it 100% obvious that it’s Halbrand.

[Chen G. 3,940]

I Just think the show is, as of yet, a little too slow, a little too nerdy and a little too demystifying. There's reason to believe pace would be less of an issue in season two, but as for the other two...I'm less hopefull.

[Jay 37,249]

Good points there, @Monoverantus

[Bilbo 3,709]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:45 PM, Jay said:

Well you made a post that was presumably about Bear's work on the show, and then spend most of the post talking about how This Wandering Day is especially bad, but since he didn't write that (and had not yet even been hired when it was written and performed), it sort of makes your entire post in retrospect not really say anything about Bear's work at all.  If that makes sense.

I dislike all the music associated with the Harfoots regardless of who wrote it. It’s twee and a cheap imitation of Celtic music.

 

The rest of the score I rather like. Working through it I definitely don’t need every note of it like I do a Howard Shore or Horner, or Williams score that I really like and maybe the OST (minus a couple of tracks) might be enough but it is something I will definitely revisit over the years. Unlike the show.

[Chen G. 3,940]

52 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

It’s twee

 

as is all the Harfoot stuff, from their Harry Potter-ish names (nary a Deagol in sight!) to their adorbs derpiness, to the fact that basically nothing happens in their storylines until the last 90 minutes of the season and how its in a bubble all by itself compared to the other storylines. Also, its by far the storyline that relies most on magic - The Stranger cast more spells this season than all the magic in all the six Jackson films combined - and the one most intent on bottling the "LOTR-feels" in terms of the outdoors-iness of it, and the "look, four Hobbits setting out on a quest!"

 

And while I actually think its very well performed, the degree to which Nori is wide-eyed and curious adds to the cloying nature of the Harfoot storyline. I've never seen a reluctant hero who spent more time talking about how she's a reluctant hero (I could swear Nori said something to the effect of "I'm just a little Harfoot" a good five times).

 

These Harfoots are basically Middle Earth Ewoks, in a way that the Hobbits of The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit were not.

[Jay 37,249]

Yea I'd like to craft some sort of 3CD or 4CD length "best of" season 1 with all the best underscore cues + all the concert arrangements.  Maybe some day

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

On 10/5/2023 at 7:53 PM, Chen G. said:

And while I actually think its very well performed, the degree to which Nori is wide-eyed and curious adds to the cloying nature of the Harfoot storyline. I've never seen a reluctant hero who spent more time talking about how she's a reluctant hero (I could swear Nori said something to the effect of "I'm just a little Harfoot" a good five times).

 

To a certain extent every major character in ROP has the same template...i.e. the "misunderstood outsider" who is smarter and more courageous than the rest of their people, who thinks differently and transcends their culture's “limited” thinking, whose notions draw deep scepticism, only to be ultimately proven correct.  

 

Galadriel...misunderstood outsider.

Nori...misunderstood outsider.

Elrond...misunderstood outsider.

Arondir...misunderstood outsider.

Durin IV...misunderstood outsider.

Bronwyn...misunderstood outsider.

 

Did I miss anyone? Every one of these individuals is at some point rejected, separated or ostracised from their own people because of their supposedly rebellious or unconventional nature. I think in some ways you could apply this to Isildur and his smarter-than-everyone-else sister as well.

 

It's embarrassing...lazy writers who haven't experienced any of life projecting their own sense of self onto their characters. These characters reflect the sensibilities of the writers and "creators" of this show more than they do anything Tolkien ever wrote.  I wonder if they even realize the degree to which they've done this.

[Chen G. 3,940]

Its very stock Hollywood writing: the small indvidual against the "machine." Its also why the authority figures in the show (except Miriel) are rather unpleasant: ESPECIALLY Gil-galad. He's like...well, Mace Windu basically!

[Bilbo 3,709]

Gil-Galad is an awful w⚓️

 

The writing is the show’s biggest flaw (aside from the costumes). The show runners and writers… you would wonder how these people with limited experience or success got these jobs in the first place. I’m still not willing to rule out the whole thing being a money laundering exercise!

 

[Barnald 365]

1 hour ago, Bilbo said:

Gil-Galad is an awful w⚓️

 

The writing is the show’s biggest flaw (aside from the costumes). The show runners and writers… you would wonder how these people with limited experience or success got these jobs in the first place. I’m still not willing to rule out the whole thing being a money laundering exercise!

 

 

The showrunners seemed to me the first indication that Amazon just wanted malleable people in place. That stuff about them rejecting notes from Bezos (or let's say higher ups of some sort)... yeah right.

[Chen G. 3,940]

On 12/05/2023 at 5:21 PM, Barnald said:

The showrunners seemed to me the first indication that Amazon just wanted malleable people in place.

 

I don't buy the studio collusion angle on this. Take a look at the Harfoots: on the face of it, that entire storyline would seem like one huge studio mandate. In a way, it was: myself and Fellowship of Fans interviewed one of the prospective showrunners that Amazon auditioned, and he was adamant that they wanted Hobbits in the story.

 

However, looking at the Harfoot storyline in the show, the one thing it doesn't do is play out like some studio dictate. It seems to me that its more accurate to say that rather than Amazon choosing people they can control, they chose people who were innately sympatico with the company's vision for the show from the outset.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I don't buy the studio collusion angle on this.

 

I'd frankly prefer it to be "studio" (i.e. Amazon) collusion. Because at least if there were studio collusion you could blame the awfulness of the show on people that sell toasters for a living rather than the supposed "creatives" who are running it.

 

Though I think "interference" is a more apt word here than collusion.

 

EDIT: Though maybe "collusion" is the right word after all...

 

Quote

Collusion

noun

kə-loo͞′zhən

1. A secret or crafty understanding for unworthy purposes.

1.  

 

 

[Bespin 8,472]

I've just finished the series.

 

I loved it.

 

And... and... and... I think I understood everything.

[Chen G. 3,940]

Good!

 

...

 

What did you like? And what did you think you understood? 

[Bespin 8,472]

Having only seen the movies (as I can't read Tolkien), I had never really grasped this whole Rings thing... why the elves, dwarves, and men had them, and why Sauron's ring controlled them all. In short, this series helped me understand the deception Sauron created in wanting to conquer Middle-earth with the aid of the unseen, rather than the physical force of purely military forces.

[Schilkeman 951]

5 hours ago, Bespin said:

as I can't read Tolkien

Is it a language thing, or are you saying he's hard to read? I'm the world's worst reader, and I can parse it just fine.

[A. A. Ron 1,736]

13 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

Is it a language thing, or are you saying he's hard to read? I'm the world's worst reader, and I can parse it just fine.

 

I assure you, I know many worse readers personally.

[Chen G. 3,940]

12 hours ago, Bespin said:

I had never really grasped this whole Rings thing... why the elves, dwarves, and men had them, and why Sauron's ring controlled them all. In short, this series helped me understand the deception Sauron created in wanting to conquer Middle-earth

 

Good!

 

For my part, I never had that desire to know: Jackson interperates the Rings as giving their wielders power of domination. Tolkien explains their power is one that preserves Middle Earth for the Elves. But to get more into the mechanics of it... its one of those things that ultimately boils down to "its a thing because we need it for the plot to happen."

 

For me, whatever successes the show does contain - and they are limited successes in my mind - is in places where it succesfully illuminates and explores concepts, visuals and story elements not explored in other Tolkien adaptations: The hyper-urbanism of Armenelos and Eregion, and a slightly different take on the Orcs, most notably.

 

But hey, horses for courses!