Rings of Power Howard Shore's The Rings of Power Main Title

[Monoverantus 363]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

That...wasn't exactly my point. 

Ok now I'm getting confused. I can't be bothered to find it, but didn't you present the idea that it's fitting that the Main Titles and Bilbo's Song work as the beginning and end of the LotR saga, specifically because neither exist as part of their respective scores, but outside of them?

[Chen G. 3,944]

That’s true, I did say that. But Bilbo’s Song - like this piece - does have associations for us insofar as it incorporates elements of Shire music and nature music and Fellowship music: they’re not specific associations because we haven’t actually heard that melody against any footage, but as we do hear it we can’t help but think (in very generalized, untenable terms) of the Hobbits and the Fellowship and so forth.

 

The same is true of this piece: for a Rings alum, the reminiscences of Rivendell and so forth are undeniable, and to a new listener they’re a prophecy of those melodic ideas.

 

Its still absolute music in both cases insofar as whatever associations we have for it are not specific.

[DangerMotif 1,037]

Does anyone have any ideas/theory's of what happened here? I get the sense that Howard wasn’t so pleased with his experience

[Jim Ware 526]

To answer the question about where Shore’s theme was recorded: https://www.instagram.com/p/Chfk8LltotO/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

[crocodile 7,984]

9 hours ago, Gibster said:

Does anyone have any ideas/theory's of what happened here? I get the sense that Howard wasn’t so pleased with his experience

Why would you say that?

 

Karol

[TolkienSS 405]

51 minutes ago, crocodile said:

Why would you say that?

 

Karol

 

Because literally nobody from his entourage, from PR to himself, said a word about it once released.

I think Shore's involvement was mentioned only once by Amazon.

[Richard Penna 3,673]

Perhaps he's just not a very interviewy person. McCreary is naturally very open about his work, like his blog.

[Jay 37,300]

6 hours ago, Jim Ware said:

To answer the question about where Shore’s theme was recorded: https://www.instagram.com/p/Chfk8LltotO/

 

That post isn't clear if Shore was physically present there or not

But it's nice to know it was recorded in Vienna

[Chen G. 3,944]

I think the most informative aspect of it is to learn that some of the soprano vocals we're hearing are in fact boys. Its nice that the piece also incorporates the whole basic "palette" of orchestra, men, women and boys.

[Monoverantus 363]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

I think the most informative aspect of it is to learn that some of the soprano vocals we're hearing are in fact boys. Its nice that the piece also incorporates the whole basic "palette" of orchestra, men, women and boys.

Indeed, in hindsight it's quite apparent

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I think the most informative aspect of it is to learn that some of the soprano vocals we're hearing are in fact boys. 

 

Was there ever skepticism about that?

[Chen G. 3,944]

4 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

\Was there ever skepticism about that?

 

I had discussions on "is that a boy choir we're hearing or are they women?" and the general consensus was it were women...

 

At the time of reviewing the OST for The Fellowship of the Ring, Doug refers to "The Prophecy" as an overture that doesn't just exposit melodic ideas but also the basic palette, which is very important because the leitmotives do become associated with certain colours. So to have a similar treatment here is quite nice.

[JWMike 117]

Edith Bowman just interviewed Shore for the latest episode of her podcast. They mainly discuss his recent score for Cronenberg's 'Crimes of the Future' and some other films from throughout his career. At the end Bowman brings up 'Rings of Power' and Shore responds with "Well, I think that's been covered very well in the press, so I don't really need to comment too much." Read into that what you will. Bowman asks at 42:23 in the episode.

 

 

[DangerMotif 1,037]

51 minutes ago, JWMike said:

Edith Bowman just interviewed Shore for the latest episode of her podcast. They mainly discuss his recent score for Cronenberg's 'Crimes of the Future' and some other films from throughout his career. At the end Bowman brings up 'Rings of Power' and Shore responds with "Well, I think that's been covered very well in the press, so I don't really need to comment too much." Read into that what you will. Bowman asks at 42:23 in the episode.

 

 

He clearly isn’t happy, it’s pretty sad on Amazons part that both Peter Jackson and Howard Shore aren’t happy with them

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

This is 100% a diss. Shore’s contribution has NOT been covered in the press. So something clearly went down.

 

 This is a major story. Surely someone is going to write up and share what happened. Why all this secrecy?

[Barnald 365]

3 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

This is 100% a diss. Shore’s contribution has NOT been covered in the press. So something clearly went down.

 

 This is a major story. Surely someone is going to write up and share what happened. Why all this secrecy?

 

NDAs?

 

But yeah, I'd say this definitely confirms something is amiss.

[Monoverantus 363]

5 hours ago, JWMike said:

Edith Bowman just interviewed Shore for the latest episode of her podcast. They mainly discuss his recent score for Cronenberg's 'Crimes of the Future' and some other films from throughout his career. At the end Bowman brings up 'Rings of Power' and Shore responds with "Well, I think that's been covered very well in the press, so I don't really need to comment too much." Read into that what you will. Bowman asks at 42:23 in the episode.

 

 

There's also a pretty noticeable cut between her question and his answer. A part of his response was edited out.

[Chen G. 3,944]

I tend not to read conspiracy theorem into situations like these, but yeah, something's weird.

[TolkienSS 405]

Shore is happy to talk about anything and everything related to his music, especially his Middle-Earth work. It seems to bring him joy. And why wouldn't it? He is also usually VERY kind and cooperative.

It's not like him to brush such a question off like that.

He didn't even give the usual "it's always such a pleasure to revisit Tolkien xyz".

 

This reminds me of the time he was replaced on King Kong, and nobody could or would say what happened.

 

[WampaRat 1,105]

 😳 yikes. Poor guy. I wonder what happened. I’m enjoying the show and McCreary’s work has been great. But yeah. Such a shame if the Maestro of Middle Earth was done dirty somehow.

 

I wonder since the Tolkien estate didn’t want Jackson near this show that included Shore for some odd reason? But Amazon had already closed some deal and had to wriggle out of it? (Stupid I know…I’ll see myself out now)

 

In any case, the relatively scant info regarding Shores involvement (not even a special call out on the album covers!) seems to suggest, yes, something unfortunate occurred.

[DangerMotif 1,037]

some thoughts that I have was that he was potentially offered more or his Title track was not his first version and had one with themes that got blocked, or just radio silence like PJ. Something clearly happened to make him mad

[WampaRat 1,105]

I’m trying to imagine a “mad” Howard Shore lol. He’s so soft spoken. Doesn’t mean he can’t feel that I suppose. I’m sure he’ll channel all his rage into the next Cronenberg score 😉

[TolkienSS 405]

3 hours ago, WampaRat said:

 😳 yikes. Poor guy. I wonder what happened. I’m enjoying the show and McCreary’s work has been great. But yeah. Such a shame if the Maestro of Middle Earth was done dirty somehow.

 

I wonder since the Tolkien estate didn’t want Jackson near this show that included Shore for some odd reason? But Amazon had already closed some deal and had to wriggle out of it? (Stupid I know…I’ll see myself out now)

 

In any case, the relatively scant info regarding Shores involvement (not even a special call out on the album covers!) seems to suggest, yes, something unfortunate occurred.

 

"Unfortunate" is not the word I would use. Howard Shore has an illustrious carreer in music, and is a film composer veteran; he knows the industry, he knows how people inside can be, he knows that it's a tough and sometimes backhanded business.

If Amazon or someone on the show wasn't pleased with the idea of him partaking in the scoring, he surely would have been dissapointed, but that would be a natural part of filmmaking and I'm sure he wouldn't hold any grudges against that. After all, he did write the title theme.

If the producers weren't fond of his music and politely declined, that would be "unfortunate".

 

But in order for him, as mentioned a quite soft spoken guy, to get offended or outright snarky, it would take more than just artistic difference; either broken verbal agreements/promises, or offensive statements made against him, or a general attitude of ignorance.

[mstrox 6,647]

Having not listened to any of the music outside of the show, I’ve been enjoying Bear’s music while I watch.  It was clear the first time that I heard Shore’s titles in episode 2 that Bear was obviously outclassed.

[Chen G. 3,944]

3 hours ago, WampaRat said:

I’m trying to imagine a “mad” Howard Shore lol. He’s so soft spoken.

 

He also seems a cheerful individual, and yet he's given us some of the gloomiest music of the century...

 

You never know. 

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

3 hours ago, mstrox said:

 It was clear the first time that I heard Shore’s titles in episode 2 that Bear was obviously outclassed.

 

This 100%. Some listeners might not realize at first listen (I see this on youtube specially where people were lukewarm on Shore's main title) but his main title as a track is 100% superior to any single track that Bear has written. Bear's music is good but it doesn't have the sophistication, the nuance and artistry that Shore is able to pack even just in 90 seconds. 

[Chen G. 3,944]

8 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Bear's music is good but it doesn't have the sophistication, the nuance and artistry that Shore is able to pack even just in 90 seconds. 

 

Quite. Its amazing how many of Shore's underlying melodic and orchestrational ideas for Middle Earth are exposited in that passage.

[DangerMotif 1,037]

17 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

This 100%. Some listeners might not realize at first listen (I see this on youtube specially where people were lukewarm on Shore's main title) but his main title as a track is 100% superior to any single track that Bear has written. Bear's music is good but it doesn't have the sophistication, the nuance and artistry that Shore is able to pack even just in 90 seconds. 

While that is 100% true, for some reason Shore (who should have done the show) was never offered the show. Considering the circumstances McCreary has done a phenomenal job. To creat completely original music that feels like Lord Of The Rings is not something alot of composers can do. His stuff is lightyears ahead of any of the Disney+ Star Wars stuff and better than the Djwadi House Of Dragon stuff.

Would shore even be able to Composer and Orchestrate 9 hours of music for a TV show?

 

[Chen G. 3,944]

2 minutes ago, Gibster said:

Would shore even be able to Composer and Orchestrate 9 hours of music for a TV show?

 

No, but I would haved liked him to to create some basic web of musical ideas a-la Williams for the show's composer to use; and I think to have the show's composer built on the Shore motivic ideas himself, too, would have been extraordinary.

 

Bear did try, but in the most superficial way possible: as just the basic colours of "Dwarves get grunting men, Elves get women, Hobbits get Celtic vibes." It ends up being neither fish nor fowl for me.

[michael_grig 464]

19 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Bear did try, but in the most superficial way possible: as just the basic colours of "Dwarves get grunting men, Elves get women, Hobbits get Celtic vibes." It ends up being neither fish nor fowl for me.

If you judge Bear for using those clichés, you also need to judge Shore as well, because he does pretty much the same Imo. Those clichés just work, that's why many use them and it's completely fine for Film Music...

[DangerMotif 1,037]

This situation could’ve easily been so much worse

[TolkienSS 405]

1 hour ago, Michael Grigorowitsch said:

If you judge Bear for using those clichés, you also need to judge Shore as well, because he does pretty much the same Imo. Those clichés just work, that's why many use them and it's completely fine for Film Music...

 

Shore isn't using clichėes. He's using the palette he himself created. 

McCreary's music is clichėed because he's using Shore's palette but can't handle his brush.

 

A clichėe is an original idea copied numerous times less skillfully.

1 hour ago, Gibster said:

This situation could’ve easily been so much worse

 

Well, we could have gotten themes and suites by Howard Shore and a title theme, for 5 seasons, and a competent composer adapting those into hours of relevant Middle-Earth canon music.

 

Instead, we got 90 seconds of Shore music, an apparently cut off relationship between him and the show, and no hope for any further music for any future season.

 

Not much worse.

[DangerMotif 1,037]

2 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

Well, we could have gotten themes and suites by Howard Shore and a title theme, for 5 seasons, and a competent composer adapting those into hours of relevant Middle-Earth canon music.

 

Instead, we got 90 seconds of Shore music, an apparently cut off relationship between him and the show, and no hope for any further music for any future season.

 

Not much worse.

I don’t think Amazon has the rights to use his music, I don’t even think Shore was able to use his themes. Much different that what happens in a-lot of other franchises

[HunterTech 987]

I mean, McCreary did use quite a few established themes for his Godzilla score (even going so far as to start with Desplat's work initially before switching to Ifukube in the finished product), so it most definitely would've been an arrangement he'd have been happy with if it apparently was only legal shenanigans that got in the way.

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

They didn't have the rights to his theme. Just as they don't have the rights to certain characters from LotR.

 

Of course it would have been great if Shore composed more themes for the show. But letting another composer then adapt Shore's themes in the underscore is another matter I believe and wouldn't be fair to both composers. It would not be the same like with Solo or Obi-Wan where Williams wrote 1 theme for the other composer to use.

I'm glad McCreary was able to create his own roster of themes and use them the way he wanted to, without the overseeing supervision of another composer whose themes he adapts.

 

I would've loved if Shore got to do the whole series, but the man is 75 years old. We should wonder if he would/could/want to compose this much music on his own. I'm not saying he's not able anymore, but it would be quite the undertaking.

 

I think, at this time, McCreary is the best composer out there, who on big movies/series, always puts both what fits the project and a great listening experience as equal importance. He is a wonderful composer when it comes to using instruments that are appropriate for cultures etc., and he has a lot of experience with big projects like this. I think he was/is the best choice for this series, at this moment and the follow up seasons.

 

He has done a great job on the music for this series, and even though it hard, I'm not trying to compare it to much Shore's music.

For me, The Lord Of The Rings films are a standard for the genre. Films which are almost 100% perfect. This series and everything that has to do with it, music included, was never going to be better that the films. With that in mind, it's easier to enjoy the show, and for me personally, especially the music.

[TolkienSS 405]

I have listened to the main titles only a handful of times, but I can't get it out of my head for days now. It's both annoying and wonderful.

[WampaRat 1,105]

I believe @Monoverantus has done a little breakdown of Shores theme. But was it ever determined if there are actual lyrics being sung by the choir(s)? The first statement of the A theme seems to just be accompanied by just oohs and aahs of a female choir. But the more aggressive (almost sinister) statement of the A theme around the 1 minute mark accompanied by the male voices seems to be singing in Kuhzdul(?)/Blackspeech(?) but also paired with female choir. 

[Monoverantus 363]

12 minutes ago, WampaRat said:

I believe @Monoverantus has done a little breakdown of Shores theme. But was it ever determined if there are actual lyrics being sung by the choir(s)? The first statement of the A theme seems to just be accompanied by just oohs and aahs of a female choir. But the more aggressive (almost sinister) statement of the A theme around the 1 minute mark accompanied by the male voices seems to be singing in Kuhzdul(?)/Blackspeech(?) but also paired with female choir. 

I'm pretty confident in my take on the lyrics for the development section 0:34-0:53 being from "Namarië", but the first statement is still a mystery to me. I could swear it starts on the first sentence of the poem, "Ai lau(rie lantar lassi surinen)" 0:12-0:17, but then it just falls apart. I wouldn't be surprised if the 0:17-0:22 choral sheets just read "Ee-ya-ee-ya".

Similarly, the Evil part definitely ends with "ishi krimpatul" 1:06-1:11, but the preceeding syllables don't match with "agh burzum".

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

Choir lyrics sound extremely distorted often when they are fitted to a specific meter or due to accents I feel. Fitting to a meter can alter pronunciation and clarity.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

Also can someone remind me did Shore and PJ had a falling out? And are they still on good terms?

[TolkienSS 405]

On 09/09/2022 at 3:08 AM, Gibster said:

I don’t think Amazon has the rights to use his music, I don’t even think Shore was able to use his themes. Much different that what happens in a-lot of other franchises

 

So ...?

What's your point?

That Howard Shore can't write Tolkien music without re-using 20 year old themes?

The point is that Shore and Amazon parting on bad terms rules out any future Shore contributions to this series.

 

The only thing worse than Howard Shore only doing the title music would have been not having Shore music at all for the series.

And it's 90 seconds away from that.

 

So, saying "it could have been a lot worse" is not saying anything.

It's like losing a finger and saying "what are you whining about, you could have lost a leg".

[DangerMotif 1,037]

34 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

So, saying "it could have been a lot worse" is not saying anything.

It's like losing a finger and saying "what are you whining about, you could have lost a leg".

Was referring to the quality of the music in the show, not about the relationship with shore.

[Chen G. 3,944]

6 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Also can someone remind me did Shore and PJ had a falling out? And are they still on good terms?

No evidence of a falling-out that I can recall: Shore did exit King Kong, but I don’t believe it was acrimonious.

[TolkienSS 405]

13 hours ago, Gibster said:

Was referring to the quality of the music in the show, not about the relationship with shore.

 

No, you said Shore shouldn't write suites and themes because Amazon doesn't have rights to his LotR themes.

[DangerMotif 1,037]

32 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

No, you said Shore shouldn't write suites and themes because Amazon doesn't have rights to his LotR themes.

False

[Richard Penna 3,673]

I just watched a bit of one of the clips posted at FSM and he says near the start that as of a few weeks back, he'd been working on the show for a little over a year and had been involved in negotiations/discussions for a year or two before that.

 

So the report that started this thread would've emerged a little after Bear had started writing, but after at least a year of discussions.

 

I'd suggest to those getting a bit more agitated by whatever went on, that (as suggsted above) NDAs and general sensitivity, and the fact that no one with James Horner's level of revelation is involved, we may never know exactly how negotiations went. Speculation as to what happened is not going to help things, when based on such little information.

[TolkienSS 405]

On 11/09/2022 at 4:33 PM, Gibster said:

False

 

No, correct.

 

I said we could have gotten themes or suites by Howard Shore for this show, to which you replied:

 

"I don't think Amazon has the right to his music. Howard Shore himself could not use his themes"

 

Which clearly suggests, for whatever reason, that Amazon shouldn't have hired Shore to write new music because they can't use his classic music.

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

I just watched a bit of one of the clips posted at FSM and he says near the start that as of a few weeks back, he'd been working on the show for a little over a year and had been involved in negotiations/discussions for a year or two before that.

 

So the report that started this thread would've emerged a little after Bear had started writing, but after at least a year of discussions.

 

I'd suggest to those getting a bit more agitated by whatever went on, that (as suggsted above) NDAs and general sensitivity, and the fact that no one with James Horner's level of revelation is involved, we may never know exactly how negotiations went. Speculation as to what happened is not going to help things, when based on such little information.

 

Just a very wordy expression of "Please don't question things I like".

[Richard Penna 3,673]

Nope, said nothing of the sort. I don't give a crap that you think his score's shit.

 

NDAs and contracts are probably going to limit any relevations you're after, that's all. How far you go to try to prove Shore was wronged is up to you.

[artguy360 1,843]

At first I thought the opening title theme was too slight to be interesting, but after listening to it many times, the short title music is full of Shore's LOTR touches. It's a simple melody, but gets played in a variety of rich and interesting guises in short order. 

[Monoverantus 363]

5 hours ago, artguy360 said:

At first I thought the opening title theme was too slight to be interesting, but after listening to it many times, the short title music is full of Shore's LOTR touches. It's a simple melody, but gets played in a variety of rich and interesting guises in short order. 

100% agree, it's like a perfect mouthful of Shore's LotR flavor. The more time I'm devoting to my upcoming video about, the more I've felt I need to adress the criticism directed at it. "Simple" is part of the appeal.