Rings of Power Howard Shore's The Rings of Power Main Title

[blondheim 1,157]

Oh, I love the main titles. I actually enjoy the imagery as well. 

[Chen G. 3,944]

This thread reminded me, so I did some more reading on the recording: it was a 73-piece orchestra and 48-piece chorus.

 

That's...kinda small, actually. Not that its a bad idea, being a sort of "prelude" to the whole cycle, to have the orchestration "fill-out", so to speak.

[Faleel 5,340]

[TolkienSS 405]

Not everything has to have a reason in a big picture.

I wouldn't have noticed the slightly smaller ensemble. It's not really small anyway if you consider standard orchestra size.

 

14 1st

12 2nd

10 Violas

8 Celli

6 Basses

4 Horns

3 Trumpets

3 Trombones

1 Tuba

3 Bassoons

2 Clarinets/Bass Clarinet

2 Flutes/Piccolo

2 Oboes/Cor

3 Percussionists (Timpani, Field Drum, Cymbals)

 

About that.

And overdubs of course.

[Chen G. 3,944]

Its not small for classical-era orchestras, but typically Shore scored Middle Earth with a substantially larger ensemble: 93 or more in the orchestra, 60 or more in the chorus, 30 or more boys and multiple specially instruments.

 

Certain pieces called for additional brass (I believe the charge of the Rohirrim called for eight trumpets and the Moria sequence for seven trombones and two tubas), quadruple winds, two timpanists, a lot of percussion, a pipe organ, as well as a full Gamelan ensemble and twenty didgeridoos. The choir, too, reached as many as 100-piece for SATB and 60-piece for the boys.

 

The live-to-projection concerts require a minimum of 225 musicians on the stage. So its not Mahler or Gurre-Leider bigger, but its big.

[TolkienSS 405]

I always assumed that number counted how many players were used altogether, and not in one place at one time. 

Because usually isn't there session planning going on, where they look what players are required for recording the pieces that day?

[Chen G. 3,944]

That's what I'm saying, if we count how many players were used alltogether (or rather, how many people it'll take to faithfully recreate the recording ensemble across all the scores on the concert stage) its something like:

 

16 1st

16 2nd

12 Violas

10 Celli

8 Basses
2 Harps

8 Horns (d. Tuben)

8 Trumpets

7 Trombones

2 Tuba

3 Bassoons/contrabassoon

4 Clarinets/Bass/contrabass Clarinet

4 Flutes/Piccolo/alto flute

4 Oboes/Cor/heckelphone
3 Keyboard (piano/celesta/clavichord, synth, organ)

2 Timpanists
7 Percussionists
20 Didgeridoos
14 Gamelan
12 Stage band (cimbalom, rhaita, bagpipes, hardinfelle, nay, etc)
100 SATB
60 Boys

That's A LOT of people! Not Gurre Lieder or Havergal's Gothic big, perhaps, but nonetheless very big!

[TolkienSS 405]

Are you counting The Hobbit? There's no synth in Lord of the Rings.

 

Where is a heckelphone used?

 

I recall Doug Adams telling the story about the twenty Didgeridoos with humor, I took that as having been notated as such but never materialized on stage (though there is Didgeridoo in the Hobbit).

[Chen G. 3,944]

7 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

There's no synth in Lord of the Rings.

 

Where is a heckelphone used?

There isn’t in The Lord of the Rings, but there is in Song of the Lonely Mountain…

 

and there’s Heckelphone doubling in some of Smaug’s music.

[Jay 37,312]

Having seen this opening title sequence 5 times now I'm still not sure what to make of it.

I enjoy hearing Shore's music each episode, and watching the sand swirl around, but what does it all mean?

 

If the showrunners have any sense, they will integrate the melody of this title theme in the score at certain points starting in season 2, that will cement its impact I think.

 

I wish there was any interview with Shore or anything where he talked about this piece

[blondheim 1,157]

As TolkienSS mentioned, maybe in another thread?, it is a visual representation of the Ainulindale, which is a creation myth of Middle-Earth where Eru created the world using music and sound to shape everything. Amazon’s title sequence uses a technique where sound is played under a surface which shapes the sand. I actually think it is quite clever

[Jay 37,312]

Yea it turns out an article was posted to this thread already that explains the visuals:

 

https://screenrant.com/lotr-rings-of-power-opening-credits-explained/

 

My question is, did Shore write his theme TO the visuals?  Or was he just asked to give a 90 second theme, and the visuals were adjusted to match its tempo changes after the fact?

[blondheim 1,157]

I am curious about that as well.

[Monoverantus 363]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Yea it turns out an article was posted to this thread already that explains the visuals:

 

https://screenrant.com/lotr-rings-of-power-opening-credits-explained/

 

My question is, did Shore write his theme TO the visuals?  Or was he just asked to give a 90 second theme, and the visuals were adjusted to match its tempo changes after the fact?

Here's a very sparse BTS video by the company that made it, that I found while researching my video. Between 0:18 and 0:20, you can see notebook scribbles about "interruption", "sing alone", "harmonizing groups", "woven melodies interchanging... in the darkness". This looks to me like the brainstorming of a team trying to figure out how to translate Shore's audio to visuals.

Also, a computer screen at 0:32 has the date 25/06/2022, implying that the visuals weren't completed by June, way later than Shore made his track.

 

[Faleel 5,340]

Did they use his track for the sound that moved the sand?

[Monoverantus 363]

6 minutes ago, Roll the Bones said:

Did they use his track for the sound that moved the sand?

No. You can see between 0:49-1:00 that it requires specific frequencies played for a prolonged time until all the grains have collected into place. I doubt a musical piece would create anything more than jitter.

[Faleel 5,340]

5 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

No. You can see between 0:49-1:00 that it requires specific frequencies played for a prolonged time until all the grains have collected into place. I doubt a musical piece would create anything more than jitter.

Yeah, didn't think so either.

 

Though TBF a bassline in a 80's/90's song did kill laptop hard drives

[Monoverantus 363]

2 minutes ago, Roll the Bones said:

Though TBF a bassline in a 80's/90's song did kill laptop hard drives

Hehe, you watch Adam Neely?

[Faleel 5,340]

9 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

Hehe, you watch Adam Neely?

Every once and a while.

[Chen G. 3,944]

19 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

No. You can see between 0:49-1:00 that it requires specific frequencies played for a prolonged time until all the grains have collected into place. I doubt a musical piece would create anything more than jitter.

 

According to Variety:

 

Quote

she spread the sand out on a tray and paired it with the sound of Gregorian chants. In close proximity, sound vibrations at various frequencies cause the sand to form patterns. When Crawford filmed the effect in slow motion with her iPhone, they knew it was the right way to introduce Tolkien’s vision to a modern audience. They continued to experiment with a variety of materials from fungal power to pigments to learn more about behaviors of particle size and density, as well as how to control the process. Though the finished visuals would eventually be paired with Howard Shore’s main title theme, they played with opera music, Gregorian chants and musical instruments like the ocarina, steel triangle and guitars.

 

According to this, Shore oversaw the recordings from New York. I think James Sizemore was present, though.

[Monoverantus 363]

Another wonderfully vague article. Can we assume "Would eventually be paired with" to mean the title sequence we got wasn't made with Shore's music in mind, or do they just mean that they used a lot of other sounds while they were still experimenting?

Also, I guess I failed to take into consideration what substances they were working with. While the heavy grain used in the example I referred to required some time, a fine sand like what's used in this video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3oItpVa9fs forms comprehensive patterns way faster. So I guess it depends on the musical piece and on the substance.

 

[Chen G. 3,944]

2 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

Can we assume "Would eventually be paired with" to mean the title sequence we got wasn't made with Shore's music in mind

 

That's how I read it.

[Monoverantus 363]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

That's how I read it.

If true, then considering the notes I alluded to earlier, did they use a temp track? Or even more pressing, did Shore have to compose his piece in the likeness of a temp track?

[TolkienSS 405]

Well, it would certainly be like this show to have a Middle-Earth story, hire the Middle-Earth composer, have 16 hours of Middle-Earth music to choose from, and then have him stick to a temp track of gregorian chants.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

I don't think so. I think you guys are reading too much into it.

 

I think Shore was given a brief and composed his music to that. The main title concept might have been pre decided. But Shore didn't score a finished sequence.

 

He delivered his piece and the new sand sequence was adjusted to his score.

 

There isn't a whole lot of syncing between the music and the visuals so both could develop independently.

[Monoverantus 363]

With practically 0 info from either Shore or Amazon, there's really no way of telling.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

Well it's Occam's Razor then, isn't it?

[artguy360 1,843]

It's a good intro, both musically and visually. I love when the men's choir enters and the first time the main motif plays on strings. 

[Jay 37,312]

I like the music a little more each time I hear it.  The visuals are OK.

 

I wonder if they will use the exact same music and visuals for Season 2, or change one or both

 

And I really wonder if Bear will integrate Shore's theme into any cues for season 2

[blondheim 1,157]

I sincerely hope Shore and Bear’s material stays separate. I don’t think Bear’s way of composing would engender itself well to Shore’s own. I think it would make both composers sound worse.

 

I’d be happy with a different Main Title every year from Shore. That would be neat. Then I could at least end up with a short little Middle-Earth EP.

 

However, if they stop using Shore altogether, I may stop watching the show entirely. That decision would be one stone too heavy in terms of being able to agree to disagree with the showrunners. The ice would break

[Chen G. 3,944]

Yeah, I would be upset if they ditched Shore's composition going forward. If they can get Shore to make a new composition for the next season, that'd be interesting.

 

I would like to hear Shore's theme sneak into the underscore, though: I don't assume there are legal issues surrounding that, short of Shore not giving his consent to it. By hearing it, or bits of it, attached to Bear's melodies and set against the show's visuals, it could gain a whole new degree of emotional resonance.

[Faleel 5,340]

16 minutes ago, blondheim said:

I sincerely hope Shore and Bear’s material stays separate. I don’t think Bear’s way of composing would engender itself well to Shore’s own. I think it would make both composers sound worse.

 

I’

How would a score you don't listen to, make a cue you do listen to sound worse?

 

It won't matter anyways, once Bear is replaced with Tim Jones for season 2

[blondheim 1,157]

6 minutes ago, Roll the Bones said:

How would a score you don't listen to, make a cue you do listen to sound worse?

 

It won't matter anyways, once Bear is replaced with Tim Jones for season 2

Unfortunately, I do listen to it if only in the context of the show each week. I don’t want Bear mutilating the only music I like in the show. I think it would cheapen Shore and do nothing for Bear’s work because it’s the way he composes that I don’t like. So it would be moot, might as well not happen.

[Faleel 5,340]

How does a person's usage of anothers themes, cheapen that other person?

[blondheim 1,157]

1 minute ago, Roll the Bones said:

How does a person's usage of anothers themes, cheapen that other person?

 I guess it doesn’t really. It’s just not a thing I personally want to hear. Shore filtered through a second-rate composer. I wouldn’t want to hear Bear adapt any theme I like. Shore, Williams, Elfman, Horner, Poledouris, Goldsmith, etc.

 

He could probably handle Giacchino though, without lowering the quality level too far.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

There's no rights issues with using Shore's main title in the score proper in ROP because Amazon owns it.

The bigger question is - what could it be used for?

 

Since it opens every episode it would have to be something important?

 

It can't be the rings of power because Bear already wrote a theme for that.

 

So I think there's nothing Shore's theme can be used for. And as such I don't think it will find its way into Bear's score.

Which is just as well - I don't think Bear should feel burdened to include anything. He's doing well on his own. So I will be content if Shore's main title remains just for the main title. That would be totally fine by me.

[Jay 37,312]

I guess it could be used as sort of an "end of the second age" theme?

[jpmatlack 29]

I’d like to see Shore completely cut loose from this. It was obvious his involvement was just one more attempt to make connections with fans between RoP and Peter Jackson’s films. It has backfired wildly in that the main theme has nothing to do with anything and Just sort of sits there on its own. And provides fodder for the overly dramatic teenagers who want to complain about every element of the show…
 

I DO suspect that music in season 5 will blur the lines between Shore’s original themes and Bear’s originals. We may even hear direct riffs. That would be cool. 

[mstrox 6,647]

I wouldn’t want them to lose the main theme - it’s so good!  I like what I’ve heard of McCreary’s score well enough, but I still am of the opinion that Shore’s intro is the most interesting theme of the series.

[Richard Penna 3,674]

I skip past the main theme when I watch each episode. It's mainly because I don't find the visuals interesting at all and the whole thing is very slow. Losing hearing Shore's main title every week... I can live with it.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

I do like the Main Theme (as I like Bear's work), but to be blunt, as much as I enjoy it, I don't think Shore's theme is in any way crucial to the show, and it doesn't add anything except music to an (uninteresting) opening titles sequence most people frankly skip.  Especially since, as far as I know, Bear isn't building on it with his own score.

 

Bringing Shore on board was always a gimmick to lend credibility to the show, but given that they're not doing anything with it, I think it was probably a mistake to do so. Again, it's a lovely piece of music, and it's nice to have a little coda to Shore's Middle-Earth work, but I think Bear should have been given the opportunity to make the project totally his.

[Jay 37,312]

3 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

as far as I know, Bear isn't building on it with his own score.

 

You should check out Bear's blogs on the score, they are all great

 

https://bearmccreary.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-appendices-part-1/

https://bearmccreary.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-appendices-part-2/

https://bearmccreary.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-appendices-part-3/

https://bearmccreary.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-appendices-part-4/

 

Basically the timeline is:

 

-Bear gets the call in late 2020 to see if he's interested in scoring the show, he virtually attends meetings with the showrunners in the ensuing months

-In the summer of 2021 they official hire him; He gets sent rough cuts of the first 2 episodes, and the scripts for all 8

-He spends six weeks exclusively writing the themes he would need for the show

-He then scores 15 minutes worth of various scenes from the first 2 episodes using some of the themes

-He plays demos for the showrunners and producers and they approve of everything

-He now spends 9 months (July 2021 -> April 2022) writing the scores to all 8 episodes; By November of 2021, they are starting to record the scores in Europe for the earlier episodes while he continues to write the later episodes at home in LA

-He hears a mockup of Shore's theme for the first time in early 2022, as he is writing the score for episode 6

-In April 2022 he finishes writing the score for episode 8, then flies to London to conduct it, the only episode he was able to conduct

 

So while I suppose it is technically possible he could reference Shore's main title in episode 8, it doesn't seem likely since he didn't even hear it until episode 6, and architected the entire season's score many, many months before he ever heard it.  It definitely isn't referenced in any way within the first 7 episodes.

[HunterTech 987]

November of 2001? Now the naysayers are going to be extra pissed that they didn't use the time travel to get the Shore from then to score the show!

[Jay 37,312]

Typo fixed

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

 

You should check out Bear's blogs on the score, they are all great

 

https://bearmccreary.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-appendices-part-1/

https://bearmccreary.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-appendices-part-2/

https://bearmccreary.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-appendices-part-3/

https://bearmccreary.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-appendices-part-4/

 

Basically the timeline is:

 

-Bear gets the call in late 2020 to see if he's interested in scoring the show, he virtually attends meetings with the showrunners in the ensuing months

-In the summer of 2021 they official hire him; He gets sent rough cuts of the first 2 episodes, and the scripts for all 8

-He spends six weeks exclusively writing the themes he would need for the show

-He then scores 15 minutes worth of various scenes from the first 2 episodes using some of the themes

-He plays demos for the showrunners and producers and they approve of everything

-He now spends 9 months (July 2021 -> April 2022) writing the scores to all 8 episodes; By November of 2021, they are starting to record the scores in Europe for the earlier episodes while he continues to write the later episodes at home in LA

-He hears a mockup of Shore's theme for the first time in early 2022, as he is writing the score for episode 6

-In April 2022 he finishes writing the score for episode 8, then flies to London to conduct it, the only episode he was able to conduct

 

So while I suppose it is technically possible he could reference Shore's main title in episode 8, it doesn't seem likely since he didn't even hear it until episode 6, and architected the entire season's score many, many months before he ever heard it.  It definitely isn't referenced in any way within the first 7 episodes.

 

Impressive. Most impressive.

 

While my feelings about the show itself are well known, I can't help but respect the passion, talent and commitment Bear has put into this project. He was an obvious choice for the score, and even though he wouldn't have been my first choice (among the prospects they could have realistically hoped to get), it's hard to think of many other composers who could put out such a solid body of work under such demanding constraints. You could argue simply the scope of what he's doing is historic in terms of TV scores.

[Jay 37,312]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

You could argue simply the scope of what he's doing is historic in terms of TV scores.

 

The only thing I can think of that comes close is LOST by Giacchino, though that of course had no choir, invented languages, or particularly exotic instruments.  Plus all the themes are for individual characters, or broader things like love and death - no themes representing entire cultures or anything.  LOST does have have more themes though (even in just the first season), although he didn't come up with concert arrangements with full A,B,C sections and bridges

[mstrox 6,647]

56 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

 

-Bear gets the call in late 2020 to see if he's interested in scoring the show, he virtually attends meetings with the showrunners in the ensuing months

-In the summer of 2021 they official hire him; He gets sent rough cuts of the first 2 episodes, and the scripts for all 8

-He spends six weeks exclusively writing the themes he would need for the show

-He then scores 15 minutes worth of various scenes from the first 2 episodes using some of the themes

-He plays demos for the showrunners and producers and they approve of everything

-He now spends 9 months (July 2021 -> April 2022) writing the scores to all 8 episodes; By November of 2021, they are starting to record the scores in Europe for the earlier episodes while he continues to write the later episodes at home in LA

-He hears a mockup of Shore's theme for the first time in early 2022, as he is writing the score for episode 6

-In April 2022 he finishes writing the score for episode 8, then flies to London to conduct it, the only episode he was able to conduct

 

What’s really missing from that timeline is: when was Shore brought onboard and under what circumstances?   I doubt we’ll ever know, but presumably after Bear was involved (based on the timeline of delivering 90 seconds in early 2022), and it seemed a few months ago like Doug had his feathers ruffled generally about the thing…

[Jay 37,312]

Yep, that's a great question.  How and why and when was he brought on board, how long did he spend writing it, what was he given as criteria, etc.  I'd love to know!

 

We don't know even know when it was recorded, only where (Vienna)

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

I still want to know what really happened between Shore & Jackson on King Kong.

[Jay 37,312]