Rings of Power The Rings Of Power APPRECIATION thread

[Jay 37,346]

Hello!

 

Lately, it has become very difficult for a large number of JWFanners who enjoy watching this show, and want to discuss it each week, to do so in the existing show thread.  This is largely due to a steady stream of negative opinions being posted in that thread, often the same criticisms over and over again.

 

This has led to some JWFanners feeling like they cannot even post their thoughts at all, as they will only see them picked apart and made to feel like they have to defend their opinions.

 

To combat this problem, I am creating this appreciation thread, where those of us who like the show, and want to discuss it freely without the haters ruining the flow of conversation, can do so.

 

This does not mean that only extremely positive commentary is allowed here; I want people to free to share what they like and don't like about individual episodes.  But you should be overall getting enjoyment out of the show to post in this thread; if you are hate-watching this show, and want to spend effort posting all the ways it disappoints you, you can still do so in the existing thread (as long as the forum's rules are adhered to).

 

Any posts that go against the spirit of this thread will be delt with swiftly!  Nobody is being censored here, the original thread exists for you to share your hate!

 

Those of us who like the show, have at it!

 

 

[jpmatlack 29]

Thank you for posting this!  I've found the season slow but overall enjoyable.  I AM a little worried how they're going to pull this together in any sensible way in 1 hour remaining, unless the season finale will be longer?

[Jay 37,346]

The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power 1x07 The Eye

 

I liked this episode a lot, because much like episode 5, it checked in with every single storyline and character, which is real nice.  Additionally, most of the storylines progressed in good an interesting ways, and set up the potential for a pretty good finale!

 

The Harfoots - Was this apple grove supposed to be the end of their migration, or just a stop along the way? I thought it was interesting that a lava bomb from Mount Doom reached the grove; Have they been marching right towards Mordor this whole time!?  It's so interesting that The Stranger doesn't seem to understand his own powers still, since he thinks he can heal the grove and does whatever it takes to do so, but it doesn't look like it works, but then it does.  I am very curious how Sadoc knew about a different part of the world's constellations - unless he made it up and sent The Stranger on a wild goose chase?  The Mystics are so interesting!  It's clear they are hunting The Stranger, and I can't wait to find out why; But damn, that was cold that they burned up the Harfoots entire caravan instead of just disappearing and heading out.  I want to know how the village is going to survive this, but with all the main characters of this squad setting out to find The Stranger, I wonder if we'll learn how they will before next season?

 

Elrond, Durin IV, Durin III, Disa - This continues to be my favorite part of the show along with the Harfoots.  The debate about whether or not to mine mithril to help the elves is so interesting because both sides present their case so well; Durin III understandably wants to protect his kin and not risk their lives mining it, and thinks nature has chosen to end the time of the elves and who is to mess with nature?  Durin IV views Elrond as much of a brother as his actual ones and doesn't want to see him die when he knows they can help him, and his entire race.  I thought it was interesting that just being in proximity to mithril cured the leaf from the tree; maybe the small amount of mithril they already have is enough to save the elves?  I liked the balrog tease at the end; how away are we timeline-wise from the dwarves digging too mightily and greedily and having the balrog chase them out?

 

Isildur - OK, so the show has a freaking volcano explode near a village where every human main character is at, and apparently every single one survives.... except why are they making us think Isildur is dead, when he's the one we all remember from the movie prologue!?  I don't get it!  I liked that his horse refused to get on the boat and is presumably going to be the key to somehow getting someone to free Isildur from the rubble but... I don't get this side story here

 

Miriel - Damn, that's crazy she lost her eyesight.  I liked that she promised to return to the Southlands after regrouping in Numenor, and that that made Elendil break down.

 

Halbrand - Something about the way everyone thought he was dead, then he showed up with a wound that needed elven magic to heal seemed suspicious to me, but I don't really know why I think that.  I still can't tell if he really wants to be king or not.

 

Galadriel and Theo - I like that Theo turned out to be good after all, not corrupted by the magic hilt -- and he, he even gets to upgrade the hilt for an Elvish sword!  Pretty good trade!  I'm a bit confused why Elendil seems to think Galadriel is to blame for all this happening; If she had never gone to Numenor and convinced Miriel to send troops here, wouldn't Adar and his orcs still have defeated the village and activated the volcano anyway?  I'd get it if he was resentful that Numenor died because of her, but it seemed like he was made about the whole even in general.  I dunno.

 

Adar - Ok, the ending of this episode was honestly goofy; Was there any viewer of this show that hadn't realized The Southlands was Mordor and the volcano that exploded was Mount Doom?  Why did they have to spell it out with a subtitle on screen?

 

Really looking forward to the finale this week!

[WampaRat 1,105]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

Miriel - Damn, that's crazy she lost her eyesight.  I liked that she promised to return to the Southlands after regrouping in Numenor, and that that made Elendil break down.

I loved how they revealed this. At first I thought “that was odd with the branch there…” and then… “ooooohhh. I get it..”

 

Yes. The Southland/Mordor reveal seemed a bit superfluous. I guess it was for people who were in no way familiar with what was going on (?) 

 

Thus far, with one episode left, I feel the series is a very solid four stars for me. It hasn’t been the cultural phenomenon that I think Amazon was hoping for. But I’ve enjoyed visiting new takes on Middle Earth each week.  Rest up Bear! Looking forward to season 2!

[mstrox 6,651]

The more they drift Halbrand’s characterization away from “is he Sauron?” the more I suspect that he actually will be.

[WampaRat 1,105]

2 hours ago, mstrox said:

The more they drift Halbrand’s characterization away from “is he Sauron?” the more I suspect that he actually will be.

They were theorizing/joking on The Rings of Power Wrap Up podcast that perhaps they’re gonna pull a Deathly Hallows/ horcrux situation and have “bits of Suaron” in various characters,  (The Stranger, Halbrand, anyone else we suspect)😆 I certainly hope that isn’t the case.

 

I just want the reveals of the little mystery boxes to happen sooner rather than later. At LEAST who the Stranger is in this season. There’s lots of other pertinent stuff to get to and set up.

[Pellaeon 593]

6 hours ago, Jay said:

how away are we timeline-wise from the dwarves digging too mightily and greedily and having the balrog chase them out?

 

Hmm.

 

SA 750 The Noldor learned that mithril had been discovered in Moria

SA 1000 Sauron chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold

SA 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring

SA 3209 Birth of Isildur

SA 3441 End of the Second Age

TA 1980 A Balrog appears in Moria

 

So it depends how you look at it. The present storylines are from that SA 750-1000 period. But the show obviously compresses all Second Age events to be within the lifetime of Isildur, so that puts things a few millennia closer together.

[Faleel 5,345]

Funny thing I noticed: the most recent episodes (as of this writing) of this and Andor share the same title.

[Jay 37,346]

8 hours ago, Pellaeon said:

SA 750 The Noldor learned that mithril had been discovered in Moria

SA 1000 Sauron chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold

SA 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring

SA 3209 Birth of Isildur

SA 3441 End of the Second Age

TA 1980 A Balrog appears in Moria

 

Thanks, I hadn't realized that Khazad-dum doesn't fall until the third age! So by the end of this show it will still be strong and mighty

[Pellaeon 593]

Honestly, I’d say it’s on the table to include it, if the Tolkiens permit it. Chekhov’s gun and all that.

[Jay 37,346]

15 hours ago, WampaRat said:

I loved how they revealed this. At first I thought “that was odd with the branch there…” and then… “ooooohhh. I get it..”

 

Yup!  That was well done.  We both noticed the branch and were like bracing for impact on the couch lol

 

I liked that it was revealed by her asking "when will the smoke clear".. damn

 

15 hours ago, WampaRat said:

Yes. The Southland/Mordor reveal seemed a bit superfluous. I guess it was for people who were in no way familiar with what was going on (?) 

 

I just can't imagine anyone watching didn't understand.  But who knows.

[eitam 364]

On 10/10/2022 at 3:52 AM, Jay said:

This does mean that only extremely positive commentary is allowed here

 

 

I'm guessing you're missing a negative here.. which is in keeping with the spirit of this thread 

[Jay 37,346]

Typo fixed

[Jay 37,346]

So what is everyone's hopes, dreams, fears, and predictions for tonight/tomorrow's season finale?

 

 

For me it is most important that they reveal who The Stranger is in the episode and don't push that reveal to season 2.

 

I also really need to know why The Mystics are pursuing him.  I think I'd be OK with not really learning much about who the Mystics are yet, as long as we understand their pursuit

 

Durin's relationship with his father and whether he's next in line or not.... I think I'd be OK with this not being resolved until season 2.

 

I also expect that we'll see Isildur found alive in this episode, and I hope we come to understand exactly what his "call to the West" is all about.  Is it his dead mother's voice that was calling his name from the sea?  How? Why?  What is the purpose of writing things so that he remains in the Southlands while everyone else goes back to Numenor?

 

I'm also curious if the season ends with Galadriel having the exact same personality she had all season, or if something happens that indicates she'll act differently next year...

 

Prediction time...

 

The Stranger - he could be so many things: one of the blue wizards, Radagast, Saruman, Gandalf, a random other Maiar, Sauron, Tom Bombadil...... I just think the most likely scenario is that he's Gandalf.  Which is a bit disappointing because that will reveal will ONLY mean something to us the viewer, and not mean anything to the Harfoots.  I dunno

 

Halbrand - I don't even think the show has set up much of a mystery about who this guy is, once he revealed he was the hidden king of the Southlands.  But everyone everywhere is speculating about who he really is: Sauron, just a guy but he eventually becomes the Witch King, just a guy but he eventually becomes the King of the Dead........ I think what is most likely is that he'll be revealed to the audience to be Sauron after he gets healed by the Elves and is hanging out there, and goes and tells Celebrimbor that he knows how he can make the rings REALLY special... and that none of the other characters will figure it out this season.

 

The Mystics - if The Stranger is Gandalf, maybe they are other Maiar?  What I most think is that they think The Stranger is Sauron, but he isn't.  So maybe they are just followers of Sauron with magic powers they got somehow?  I dunno.

[jpmatlack 29]

I also hope to find out who the Stranger is. The Mystics are a race from the East that were written about but never shown on screen before, so I’m sorry of still thinking of them as a sort of Man. They definitely aren’t Maiar. I’m still not even sure they are “evil”… 
 

Halbrand being Sauron would be epic but I would be extremely surprised.
 

I’d like to see Celebrimbor and Gil-Galad recast next season. They about the heck out of me. 
 

i don’t actually mind Galadriel’s attitude, and I think going back and watching the previous episodes with the revelation sit Celeborn might make people more sympathetic. Anyway, I don’t mind her attitude or character as much as the other elves. 

[Jay 37,346]

Random question... 

 

Do we think the hilt was designed to make Mount Doom erupt? 

 

Or, 

 

Is it possible it was only a key to make the dam release all its water, and Adar knew that and had orcs dig tunnels to send the water into the volcano, but the was never something whoever built the dam and key expected to happen? 

[Faleel 5,345]

Most likely it was always the plan.

[WampaRat 1,105]

Finished it. Enjoyed it. Solid 4 stars.

 

I like that they didn’t leave their mystery box reveals (Who is Sauron? Who is the Stranger?) for later seasons. That was my biggest wish for this last episode and it was granted. We can get on with some really great events coming up now. 
 

The Fiona Apple Song will take another listen or two for me to appreciate. I confess it seemed a bit silly/clunky. Not sure why. I love Bear’s music. And the lyrics are pure Tolkien. But the marriage of the melody and the lyrics didn’t quite mesh for me…

[mstrox 6,651]

I liked it!

 

I think Halbrand was the obvious Sauron, but I don’t think it’s a bad thing.  Anyone else would have been a swerve that betrays the narrative being told at this point.  In hindsight, I think it was a wise choice to give him, essentially, the familiar Aragorn character arc - to appear in a fairer form not just to the characters onscreen but to the viewers as well.

 

I wonder if the structure of the series will be - Season 1 - the forging of the elven rings. Season 2 - the dwarf rings.  3 - the mankind rings.  4 - the one ring, and 5- the ensuing war.
 

I’m less invested in the wizard/harfoot storyline, tbh.  It’s fine.  Ready for the season 2 of Assuming the Wizard is Gandalf before it twists its way to somebody else.

 

Overall the show is pretty good.  I’d hesitate to call it peak TV in the time of Peak TV, unless we’re rating on production values alone.  But as a fantasy TV show, it’s great and probably the best of its kind (before people want to get into what appears to be the zeitgeisty debate, GoT’s fantasy was meted out so deliberately, at least in the first few seasons, that I don’t consider it to be a fantasy show in the same vein, and I’m not gonna watch the prequel). 

 

I need to hear it on album when I get the CDs today, but I’m very pleased with how loud and proud Bear’s score is, orchestral and largely avoiding the modern trappings.  I don’t care for a few of the themes I’ve picked up on including Galadriel’s which is all over the place, but that’s just personal taste.  I do like the ring theme and the end song though.

 

I actually kind of have the urge to go back and read the books, which I’ve read twice and didn’t care for.  So let the dweebs say what they want, but this series ultimately increased my interest in Tolkien proper.

[crumbs 14,306]

12 hours ago, Jay said:

The Mystics - if The Stranger is Gandalf, maybe they are other Maiar?  What I most think is that they think The Stranger is Sauron, but he isn't.  So maybe they are just followers of Sauron with magic powers they got somehow?  I dunno.

 

Spoiler

Ten points to Gryffindor!

 

[Knight of Ren 789]

I quite enjoyed the season! It's true that the first 5 episodes developed at a slower paced that I was hoping for, but I think the build-up was worth it since these last three episodes have offered many answers to the mysteries rising in that first part of the season.

 

Withouth a doubt my favorite storyline was the Khazad-dûm one, with Durin and Elrond's relationship, but I also enjoyed a lot the Southlands storyline, and how the Númenor storyline gets mixed in thanks to Galadriel and Halbrand, culminating in that epic battle sequence in episode 6. Also, Adar's character was really interesting and I hope we get to see more of him in future seasons. The Harfoot storyline I think wasn't as strong as the other ones, but the resolution in this final episode was great and it even made me a bit emotional!

 

I hope they are able to continue the show with more seasons, because I think the show has the potential to be better and more polsihed, and I really hope they can achieve that promise in future seasons!

[JNHFan2000 2,957]

My thoughts exactly.

 

To be honest. The Harfoot storyline made me shed a tear this episode. Did not expect that. 

[WampaRat 1,105]

Yes. Some terrific emotion on display there. The little goodbye handshake between Nori and her Dad was oddly effective and my wife let out an audible “awww”. 

Im very excited to go through all the season albums on Spotify today and make my ideal playlist 😊 I’ll use the Season Sampler as the main structure but supplant a handful of tracks from each episode album. There will be a pretty stellar 3-4 hours worth of music to be had! 

[Stark 312]

There are some pacing issues with this show, some lore changes that are just too much, and an intolerable amount of fake-outs… but as a whole I still quite like this show. A solid 8/10, and it succeeds at more than I expected, particularly in immersing us in Middle Earth.

[WampaRat 1,105]

Yes there were some slow bits. The pacing is one of the main things that keeps me from giving it 5 stars (Im not steeped enough in the lore to know what has been tampered with). I’m trying to think what I would have cut to keep things moving along? There isn’t an entire episode that I thought was superfluous. More like a scene here or there or bits of redundant dialogue I guess (The Balrog bit, while cool to see, probably didn’t need to be there in this instance even though it will eventually wreck shop later on.) Perhaps there’s an entire episodes worth of cuts that could be made that would have helped it cruise along. But  I’ll leave it to some ambitious fan editor to whittle things down. 
 

While the story is in no way resolved, I like that I didn’t feel left dangling at the end of this season. Only eager to see what’s next. 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

5 hours ago, mstrox said:

I wonder if the structure of the series will be - Season 1 - the forging of the elven rings. Season 2 - the dwarf rings.  3 - the mankind rings.  4 - the one ring, and 5- the ensuing war.

 

I think its Season One: creation of Mordor and the three Elven Rings.

Season Two: The War of Sauron and the Elves

Season Three: The Downfall of Numenore

Season Four and Five: The Kingdoms in Exile and War of the Last Alliance

[Richard Penna 3,683]

Nice episode - none of the storylines lost me this time, and overall the direction, performances and visuals were excellent. Just a bit of dodgy writing here and there. I loved how several sections near the end were left almost entirely to Bear's score.

[crumbs 14,306]

4 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Nice episode - none of the storylines lost me this time, and overall the direction, performances and visuals were excellent. Just a bit of dodgy writing here and there. I loved how several sections near the end were left almost entirely to Bear's score.

 

The showrunners clearly have a much better understanding of the role and power of music than anyone working on Disney's Star Wars shows.

 

It's a fascinating contrast between the two approaches. One show embracing the musical heritage that inspired it, the other doing everything in its power to escape the "shackles" of John Williams.

 

The results speak for themselves.

[Stark 312]

I think their understanding of the power of music is higher than that of almost anyone in any production at the moment!

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

On 12/10/2022 at 11:58 PM, Jay said:

I liked the balrog tease at the end; how away are we timeline-wise from the dwarves digging too mightily and greedily and having the balrog chase them out?

 

Slightly less than 4,000 years…

 

On 12/10/2022 at 11:58 PM, Jay said:

Halbrand - Something about the way everyone thought he was dead, then he showed up with a wound that needed elven magic to heal seemed suspicious to me, but I don't really know why I think that.  I still can't tell if he really wants to be king or not.

 

And considering the wound needed Elvish medicine, it's rather harsh of Galadriel to expect him to gallop with her. But he didn't seem to mind…

 

On 12/10/2022 at 11:58 PM, Jay said:

I'm a bit confused why Elendil seems to think Galadriel is to blame for all this happening; If she had never gone to Numenor and convinced Miriel to send troops here, wouldn't Adar and his orcs still have defeated the village and activated the volcano anyway?  I'd get it if he was resentful that Numenor died because of her, but it seemed like he was made about the whole even in general.  I dunno.

 

I think it's about Numenor getting involved and suffering a loss, and his belief that he lost his son. It's just so clumsily handled…

On 13/10/2022 at 7:23 AM, Roll the Bones said:

Funny thing I noticed: the most recent episodes (as of this writing) of this and Andor share the same title.

 

Well, there's an actual Andor in this show, too… though they haven't used the name in the series I think.

 

On 13/10/2022 at 3:44 PM, Jay said:

Thanks, I hadn't realized that Khazad-dum doesn't fall until the third age! So by the end of this show it will still be strong and mighty

 

Closed off though, if they go by the source material.

 

On 14/10/2022 at 8:15 AM, WampaRat said:

The Fiona Apple Song will take another listen or two for me to appreciate. I confess it seemed a bit silly/clunky. Not sure why.

 

It caught me off guard; it's not what I expected or wished for. But I was fascinated by how it sounded not so much like a song, but more like an incantation, which ultimately fits the Ring poem very well.

On 14/10/2022 at 1:59 PM, mstrox said:

I wonder if the structure of the series will be - Season 1 - the forging of the elven rings. Season 2 - the dwarf rings.  3 - the mankind rings.  4 - the one ring, and 5- the ensuing war.

 

That would be annoying, because the Three were the peak of Celebrimbor's project and the mightiest of the Rings, save Sauron's own (forged ten years after the Three, by the book). The Seven and Nine were just other Rings of Power along the way to crafting the Three; stronger than lesser rings that were part of the project (and never mentioned more specifically in Tolkien's writings, as far as I know), but weaker than the Three. It was Sauron who give them to Dwarves and Men - there was no specific division between the two sets (7 and 9) as far as I know, the numbering just comes from how Sauron chose to distribute them.

[Edmilson 7,432]

Tolkien fans of JWFan, would you answer some questions from this non-Tolkien reader?

1. What are those Black Flags on Númenor? Are they something from the books or were they just invented for the show? 
2. Why Sauron/Halbrand killed orcs and almost killed their commander Adar on S01E06? Aren't they, like, on the same team? The season finale implies he was resentful of Morgoth and wanted to leave his past as his soldier behind, but still that doesn't explain why he was slaughtering his former "brothers-in-arms".
3. If Sauron's help managed to save the Elven race, why is that a "bad" thing? What exactly was his endgame there? Was he trying to enslave the Elves through the rings they forget together?
4. Why the hell would the show tease a Balrog if he won't attack the dwarfs for a few millenia? What exactly is a Balrog and what is he doing on the Dwarves' mountain?
5. So Gandalf was just a amnesiac dude who fell from the sky and those Mystics thought he was Sauron?

[WampaRat 1,105]

37 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

What are those Black Flags on Númenor? Are they something from the books or were they just invented for the show? 

I’m working through a rewatch of the whole season currently. But those black flags I believe are to show mourning for the passing of the King in the Tower (Muriel’s Dad) Not sure if they were invented for the show or not .

 

37 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Why Sauron/Halbrand killed orcs and almost killed their commander Adar on S01E06? Aren't they, like, on the same team? The season finale implies he was resentful of Morgoth and wanted to leave his past as his soldier behind, but still that doesn't explain why he was slaughtering his former "brothers-in-arms".

I think they’re creating some tension between the two for the sake of drama. Sort of a “not all bad guys are on the same side” sort of thing. Adar is shown to be ruthless but caring for his “children” while Sauron is 100% selfish and uses people as a means to an end. No doubt there’ll be some sort of uneasy alliance and an inevitable betrayal at some point with those two. I can dig it. 

 

37 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Why the hell would the show tease a Balrog if he won't attack the dwarfs for a few millenia? What exactly is a Balrog and what is he doing on the Dwarves' mountain?

Yeah. Cool but unnecessary tease I thought.  

[Pellaeon 593]

4 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Tolkien fans…

If Sauron's help managed to save the Elven race, why is that a "bad" thing? What exactly was his endgame there? Was he trying to enslave the Elves through the rings they forget together?

 

First note that in the books the point of the Elven Rings was not to forestall the Elves’ fading but rather to shape paradisiacal lands in Middle-earth (like Lórien): “They had refused to return into the West, and they desired both to stay in Middle-earth, which indeed they loved, and yet to enjoy the bliss of those that had departed.” And, “Those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.”

 

Now to your question: “While [Sauron] wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them. But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought.”

 

Quotes from The Silmarillion, ‘Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.’

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

11 hours ago, Edmilson said:

1. What are those Black Flags on Númenor? Are they something from the books or were they just invented for the show? 

 

They're clearly meant to be a sign of mourning for Tar-Palantir, father of (still) queen Tar-Míriel. I don't remember if Tolkien ever described those events in detail, and I don't recall him ever describing Numenorean mourning flags. Using real world black flags *may* be a bit of a goofy choice because as far as I remember, the Numenorean royal banner used a black field.

 

11 hours ago, Edmilson said:

1. Why Sauron/Halbrand killed orcs and almost killed their commander Adar on S01E06? Aren't they, like, on the same team? The season finale implies he was resentful of Morgoth and wanted to leave his past as his soldier behind, but still that doesn't explain why he was slaughtering his former "brothers-in-arms".

 

Sauron was in disguise,so it might just be that Adar & his Orcs were not aware of him and Sauron himself didn't mind sacrificing them for his goals. Adar is a confusing figure for me - he was (I think) entirely invented for the series and I have no idea where they're going with him, or which of his claims to take seriously.

 

11 hours ago, Edmilson said:

1. If Sauron's help managed to save the Elven race, why is that a "bad" thing? What exactly was his endgame there? Was he trying to enslave the Elves through the rings they forget together?

 

That's literally the point of the One Ring (which has yet to be forged): To master and dominate all the other Rings. Sauron joined the Ring project (which as @Pellaeonmentioned was created by Celebrimbor not to "heal" the Elves (an absurd invention of the series), but to stave off decline and preserve the world as it was (and, perhaps with some hubris, even shape it to make it closer to Valinor) - the struggle with a declining world experienced from a lengthy/theoretically endless life has always been the major issue of the Elves, and to me the core of Tolkien's entire invention). And because the Three were forged after Sauron left the project and were never touched by him, they were even successful in that endeavour, to an extent. Lothlorien in LOTR appears as it does only (golden trees and everything) only by the power of Galadriel's Ring, and after she left Middle-earth, it slowly lost its heightened properties and gradually become just a regular forest. Without the Three, Sauron probably couldn't have been defeated - but then, without him forging and *losing* his own One Ring, he probably wouldn't have been either (a mistake later repeated by Voldemort).

 

11 hours ago, Edmilson said:

1. Why the hell would the show tease a Balrog if he won't attack the dwarfs for a few millenia? What exactly is a Balrog and what is he doing on the Dwarves' mountain?

 

Well, too deeply and too greedily digging for mithril ultimately was what reawakened the Balrog. That's why I didn't really mind them briefly teasing it on the show, although I would have preferred a dormant one. As for the time aspect - sadly the show has a very twisted (and confusing) approach to Tolkien's timeline - like the PJ films, but much more so (then again, they're dealing with millennia, when in PJ's case it was mostly just a couple of decades). Something that takes a couple of hundred years in Tolkien's "reality" might be compressed to a few days in the show.

 

What a balrog is: A Maia corrupted by Morgoth - i.e. of the same "original" class as Sauron (though he was higher up in the hiearchy and more powerful than the balrogs) and the Istari. Which is why in LOTR, Gandalf was "officially" the only member of the Fellowship who stood a chance of fighting the balrog of Moria. Most (or all?) of the Balrogs were either killed during the First Age (one was famously slain in Gondolin by Glorfindel - the famous Elf who died in that battle, was reincarnated and lived in Rivendell in the TA, where he aided the Fellowship in getting Frodo safely across the ford of the Bruinen, although Bakshi replaced him with Legolas and PJ with Arwen), or at the end of the First Age, when Morgoth was defeated and most of the area of Middle-earth that was relevant to the First Age (a huge area west of the Blue Mountains) was flooded by the sea. I don't recall if Tolkien says where Durin's balrog came from, but he does indicate that he fled to the roots of Caradhras and remained there, dormant, until the Dwarves accidentally awoke him.

 

11 hours ago, Edmilson said:

1. So Gandalf was just a amnesiac dude who fell from the sky and those Mystics thought he was Sauron?

 

As I mentioned above, Gandalf (and the other Istari) also was a Maia. The three Mystics I think were invented for the show (unless they come out of some of Tolkien's very extended writings), probably from the East or far South, which Tolkien hardly ever wrote about (it's where the two Blue Wizards went). As such, it probably makes sense that they were somehow allied with Sauron, and if they were looking for him (Sauron had been in hiding since the end of of the First Age), it seems at least not entirely off that they might sense his similar power and mistake him for Sauron.

 

That Gandalf appears like Yvaine in Gaiman's Stardust is an invention of the show. I always understood that the Istari arrived by ship out of Valinor, although I don't remember if that is ever explicitly mentioned. Aside from that, given Gandalf's affinity to fire, his Mr Fahrenheit style entrance seems at least partly inspired, and allows them to have him wake up among the Halflings and thus explain their close bond to them. That he appears before the forging of the Rings (and rather early in the Second Age, when the Valar wouldn't yet officially leave Middle-earth to its own fate for 2,000 more years) is one of the show's biggest contradictions to canon.

[Holko 9,516]

32 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I always understood that the Istari arrived by ship out of Valinor, although I don't remember if that is ever explicitly mentioned.

Gandalf immediately gets his Ring from Círdan who rules the Grey Havens, that's as close to explicit as it gets I think.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Just now, Holko said:

Gandalf immediately gets his Ring from Círdan who rules the Grey Havens, that's as close to explicit as it gets I think.

 

Does he get it immediately, or is that only conjecture on our part? It certainly is the main reason (or at least the one I remember) for my thinking that he naturally arrived via ship at the Grey Havens, but I haven't gone back to verify the exact wording. If it's just (as I seem to remember) that he received the Ring from Círdan when he "first arrived" at Middle-earth, there's at least some lee-way that would allow him to meet up with Círdan in the next few years (or even decades I assume), although the main problem with the current presentation is of course that Círdan doesn't even have a Ring yet because they were not yet created on the show when Gandalf arrived. That still bothers me, probably more than anything else.

[Pellaeon 593]

“They came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores.… Last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.”

 

From Unfinished Tales, ‘The Istari’

[Jay 37,346]

The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power 1x08 Alloyed

 

Well that was a decent finale; I thought the Stranger and Halbrand payoffs were pretty decent, as was the conclusion of the character arc they built for Galadriel this season.  I was quite underwhelmed with how things ended with all the Numenor characters, and was surprised not to see the Durins, Adar, Arondir, Bronwyn, or Isildul at all!  In retrospect I guess episode 7 wrapped up all those guys' stories for the season, but it sure didn't feel like it at the time!

 

Eärien - Man I just don't understand why the writers came up with this character or what purpose she serves.  It seemed like this episode was finally going to explain it by having her find the palantir, but then any further reveals are kicked down the road to next season.  Weird.

 

Númenor - I liked the touch of Elendil and Miriel returning home to find black flags up, letting them know the King has passed.  Now this I don't mind being a setup for next season; With the king dead, it will be curious to see how Miriel and Pharazôn squabble for power, and what roles Elendil, Eärien, and Kemen will play in it - and if Isildur's brother will show up

 

The Stranger - I liked the fake-out of revealing The Stranger to be Sauron right away in the show's second cold-open, only to have an actual reveal of the truth later.  However, they sort of screwed that up by having Galadriel give curious looks at Halbrand for 30 minutes in between the reveals, with completely gave everything away.  As much as I don't really see the need for having Gandalf be part of this second age show instead of inventing some other magical being to play a similar role, Daniel Weyman's performance once he was fully "awoken" was pretty great, he was like partially channeling McKellen's Gandalf while also doing his own thing.  I think there's a lot of potential that he'll be a cool character to follow next year.

 

The Mystics - These guys turned out to be a pretty decent secondary villains!  I liked that the Eminem-looking one could make herself look just like Nori and later The Stranger, and the big battle to defeat them was decent enough (if paced a little weird).  I don't know enough about the lore to understand where these guys come from, why The Stranger wants to go there now, or why they turned into moths when they died (?), but they were pretty cool.  I wonder if they are truly dead?

 

Harfoots - It was sad that Sadoc had to die, but I guess they had to have some stakes somewhere.  I liked the dynamics Nori had with Poppy and the rest of her village, but a one-season story of her having an adventure with Gandalf could be decent too.  We'll see!

 

The Sauron reveal - somehow they managed to pull this all off in a way that didn't seem goofy or forced to me!  It's kind of fun that Galadriel spent centuries looking for a trace he was still alive, thought she found proof in The Southlands when an old weapon of his turned it into Mordor, only for that to really be Adar's doing seemingly without the assistance of Sauron at all (?), then to finally realize she had been a companion of his without realizing it during that whole adventure.  He ended up being so tricksy you don't even know if he truly was into Galadriel or just wanted her Elven power, and don't really understand which things he did this season were part of his grand plan and which were not.  I thought the only strange part was that after Galadriel doesn't fall for his schtick and he leaves Eregion, we saw him still looking like Halbrand in the final scene.  I thought for sure that was a temporary disguise, and he'd look completely different from now on.  Oh well.

 

Galadriel - I really dug her journey in this episode.  Her slow realization about how she had been tricked was pretty good, and I liked that she quietly asked that other elf dude to get confirmation instead of angrily confronting Halbrand.  Then, the magic spell or whatever that was that he put her under where she got to re-experience life with Finrod and previous experiences with Halbrand was pretty nifty, and I like that in the end she decided not to tell the other elves that she had been working with Sauron and brought him right into Eregion because... yea.  I see potential for a nice change in her personality and characterization next season.

 

The rings - I don't think I really understood all of this stuff.  I understood the aspect that the elves will die without bathing in the light of mithril (let's put aside for a second whether or not that makes sense or not), but didn't really understand how taking some mithril and making an object out of it saves the entire race?  Now that the mithril is spread out among 3 rings, what are they supposed to do, walk around from Elven town to Elven town letting each elf see its glow for a hot minute or something?  Basically I don't know if I'm not understanding something I'm supposed to, or if the real explanation is coming in the future?

 

Likewise, i don't really understand what role Sauron played in their creation.  Like when he decided to disguise himself as Halbrand and wait for Galadriel on a raft, did he already know Mithril existed?  If so, how?  Does he already have a plan to control all of the world via a ring, or will that come later?  Did her fake an injury on the battlefield to get Galadriel to bring him into Eregion, or was that random happenstance and not part of his plan?  Once he was there, was he just genuinely trying ot help Celebrimbor figure out how to make his rings, just because he's a smith and enjoys the work?  Or do the elven rings fit into Sauron's plan?  Or would they have if Galadriel hadn't figured him out, but now that she did and they were made after, they are free of his evilness he would have put in them somehow?

I feel like I shouldn't have this many questions at the end of the season, but here we are...

[Faleel 5,345]

I think Halbrand/Saury was just trying to get to any forge/group of smiths

 

All I got was Earien just doesn't want her brother and father to die in battle, she might have a more sensible role in later seasons with the persecution of the faithful and the Fall of Numenor.

 

I guess the magic energy in the Rings feeds back into itself amplifying it, and the Elves can infuse it into their works.

[Pellaeon 593]

It seems more and more likely to me that the Stranger is one of the Blue Wizards.

 

1. Tolkien decided that the Blue Wizards arrived in Middle-earth in the Second Age. This nugget of information is not in any of the more well-known sources, but it is from Tolkien, so. If you were writing this show, you would jump at that opportunity.

 

2. They were active in the East / Rhûn / Rómen. That’s where the Stranger is headed, no? There was something about a constellation resembling an “R” rune.

 

3. One of the only things known about the Blue Wizards is that Pallando was the helper of Alatar. Another name for him is Rómestámo — East-helper. There was something about him being “the other Istar.” Alatar has preceded him.

 

4. “Follow your nose” — well, the Blue Wizards were servants of Oromë the Hunter. Sounds like a hunter’s instinct to me. Maybe Gandalf learned it from the Blue Wizards.

[Jay 37,346]

23 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

It seems more and more likely to me that the Stranger is one of the Blue Wizards.

 

1. Tolkien decided that the Blue Wizards arrived in Middle-earth in the Second Age. This nugget of information is not in any of the more well-known sources, but it is from Tolkien, so. If you were writing this show, you would jump at that opportunity.

 

That's interesting...

 

23 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

2. They were active in the East / Rhûn / Rómen. That’s where the Stranger is headed, no? There was something about a constellation resembling an “R” rune.

 

Yes, the Mystics specifically used the word "Rhûn", and later The Stranger said specifically that was where he was going.

 

23 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

3. One of the only things known about the Blue Wizards is that Pallando was the helper of Alatar. Another name for him is Rómestámo — East-helper. There was something about him being “the other Istar.” Alatar has preceded him.

 

I don't know what any of this means

 

23 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

4. “Follow your nose” — well, the Blue Wizards were servants of Oromë the Hunter. Sounds like a hunter’s instinct to me. Maybe Gandalf learned it from the Blue Wizards.

 

I took that line to be a direct reference to Gandalf's line in PJ's Fellowship movie, to confirm to anyone watching that it was Gandalf.  

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

26 minutes ago, Jay said:

Eärien - Man I just don't understand why the writers came up with this character or what purpose she serves.  It seemed like this episode was finally going to explain it by having her find the palantir, but then any further reveals are kicked down the road to next season.  Weird.

 

My theory is that her character was created to give us a sympathetic character to witness and die in the eventual Downfall of Numenor. The palantir business annoys me, it seems like the show takes the limited & one-dimensional portrayal of the remaining stones as devices of Sauron from PJ's LOTR and applies them to the palantiri at the peak of Numenor's power, when they were uncorrupted and used, essentially, as video communication devices.

 

26 minutes ago, Jay said:

The rings - I don't think I really understood all of this stuff.  I understood the aspect that the elves will die without bathing in the light of mithril (let's put aside for a second whether or not that makes sense or not), but didn't really understand how taking some mithril and making an object out of it saves the entire race?  Now that the mithril is spread out among 3 rings, what are they supposed to do, walk around from Elven town to Elven town letting each elf see its glow for a hot minute or something?  Basically I don't know if I'm not understanding something I'm supposed to, or if the real explanation is coming in the future?

 

The "Elves are dying" thing aside, the power of the Three Rings is canon: They were used to create and preserve a glimpse of Valinor in Middle-earth. The golden Mallorn trees in Lothlorien are an example, and they endured as long as the Rings had power. After the destruction of Sauron's Ring, everything created by them slowly decayed, coinciding with the last remaining Noldor leaving Middle-earth.

 

The mithril component is a plot device of the show that probably just makes everything more confusing and inconsistent. In Tolkien's writings, the two are unrelated.

 

26 minutes ago, Jay said:

Likewise, i don't really understand what role Sauron played in their creation.  Like when he decided to disguise himself as Halbrand and wait for Galadriel on a raft, did he already know Mithril existed?  If so, how?  Does he already have a plan to control all of the world via a ring, or will that come later?  Did her fake an injury on the battlefield to get Galadriel to bring him into Eregion, or was that random happenstance and not part of his plan?  Once he was there, was he just genuinely trying ot help Celebrimbor figure out how to make his rings, just because he's a smith and enjoys the work?  Or do the elven rings fit into Sauron's plan?  Or would they have if Galadriel hadn't figured him out, but now that she did and they were made after, they are free of his evilness he would have put in them somehow?

 

Going by the canon, Sauron joined Celebrimbor and the smiths of Eregion deliberately to be a part of the Rings project, and was essential in its success. His plan was all along to secretly make his own Ring to dominate the others, as he did in the end. The One had direct control of the sixteen Rings Sauron helped create (the Seven and the Nine), but not over the Three, whicih Celebrimbor created alone and which were never touched by Sauron.

 

I find it curious that the show never uses Sauron's assumed name at the time: Annatar. Maybe it's not part of the material they're allowed to use (I don't recall if it comes up in the Appendices).

 

[Faleel 5,345]

12 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

 

 

I don't know what any of this means

 

Alatar is the other Blue Wizard.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

13 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

4. “Follow your nose” — well, the Blue Wizards were servants of Oromë the Hunter. Sounds like a hunter’s instinct to me. Maybe Gandalf learned it from the Blue Wizards.

 

That, more than anything else, seemed to be to be the official confirmation that Mr Fahrenheit is indeed Gandalf, much though it annoys me in context. I think the Mystics turning into moth swarms under his spell was another hint - and another one that annoys me, because Gandalf's curious affinity to moths is something that already bugged me in PJ's films.

 

I think Tolkien mentioned somewhere (probably also in the Istari essay published in Unfinished Tales) that Gandalf spent an extended period of his early Middle-earth days in faraway lands as well?

[Faleel 5,345]

5 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

My theory is that her character was created to give us a sympathetic character to witness and die in the eventual Downfall of Numenor. The palantir business annoys me, it seems like the show takes the limited & one-dimensional portrayal of the remaining stones as devices of Sauron from PJ's LOTR and applies them to the palantiri at the peak of Numenor's power, when they were uncorrupted and used, essentially, as video communication devices.

 

 

 

Isn't  it just using them as depictions of the folly of trying to divine the future instead of living in the present?

[Jay 37,346]

8 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

My theory is that her character was created to give us a sympathetic character to witness and die in the eventual Downfall of Numenor. The palantir business annoys me, it seems like the show takes the limited & one-dimensional portrayal of the remaining stones as devices of Sauron from PJ's LOTR and applies them to the palantiri at the peak of Numenor's power, when they were uncorrupted and used, essentially, as video communication devices.

 

Yea I didn't really understand why the palantirs were introduced midway through the season as being dangerous to use; I thought the whole point was that they were once perfectly fine, but they only became dangerous when Sauron rose to power in the third age.  If I was writing a show set in the second age, I'd go out of my way to show how different things are compared to the third age, instead of constantly making things similar...

 

8 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

The "Elves are dying" thing aside, the power of the Three Rings is canon: They were used to create and preserve a glimpse of Valinor in Middle-earth. The golden Mallorn trees in Lothlorien are an example, and they endured as long as the Rings had power. After the destruction of Sauron's Ring, everything created by them slowly decayed, coinciding with the last remaining Noldor leaving Middle-earth.

 

The mithril component is a plot device of the show that probably just makes everything more confusing and inconsistent. In Tolkien's writings, the two are unrelated.

 

I think you missed the point of what I said.  Again, I'm not talking about whether or not the Elves dying without mithril makes any sense, I'm trying to figure out how within the world of the show, putting mithril in rings gets that mithril to every elf out there.  Because I thought in an earlier episode it was said that every elf would have to bathe in its light to be saved.  But maybe I missed something.

 

8 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Going by the canon, Sauron joined Celebrimbor and the smiths of Eregion deliberately to be a part of the Rings project, and was essential in its success. His plan was all along to secretly make his own Ring to dominate the others, as he did in the end. The One had direct control of the sixteen Rings Sauron helped create (the Seven and the Nine), but not over the Three, whicih Celebrimbor created alone and which were never touched by Sauron.

 

Again, I do understand that is how it works in the books, I'm trying to figure out in the show, which parts of this was Sauron's plan and which was not.  In the show, does he ALREADY plan to make a ring later?  In the show, was he HOPING to have a direct hand in making the 3 elven rings?  Come to think of it, when he left I think they were still planning on making a crown...

 

8 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I find it curious that the show never uses Sauron's assumed name at the time: Annatar. 

 

I think that literally the only reason was that if he called himself that instead of Halbrand, every book-reader would know from moment one that he was Sauron.

[Faleel 5,345]

4 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Come to think of it, when he left I think they were still planning on making a crown...

 

I thought they had moved on to the two circles at that point.

 

Also don't  forget he was influencing Celebrimbor "Power of Flesh, where did you hear those words?"

 

So I think he was using Celebrimbor to figure out the process of Magical Ringmaking.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

4 minutes ago, Roll the Bones said:

Isn't  it just using them as depictions of the folly of trying to divine the future instead of living in the present?

 

Either way they seem to be presented as "evil" or at least ominous, when they were more than anything else just tools (created by the Elves of Valinor, no less) for long distance communication.

 

[Faleel 5,345]

3 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Either way they seem to be presented as "evil" or at least ominous, when they were more than anything else just tools (created by the Elves of Valinor, no less) for long distance communication.

 

Personally, I interpreted it as more a depiction of the misuse of or overreliance on those tools.

 

I guess.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

I think you missed the point of what I said.  Again, I'm not talking about whether or not the Elves dying without mithril makes any sense, I'm trying to figure out how within the world of the show, putting mithril in rings gets that mithril to every elf out there.  Because I thought in an earlier episode it was said that every elf would have to bathe in its light to be saved.  But maybe I missed something.

 

I fear there's just not enough logic to the changes the show makes (in contrast to the very strict logic in Tolkien's original). The Rings as such have the power to hold entire realms in temporal suspension (there's that other curious aspect of Lothlorien where time passes more slowly within its borders than in the rest of the world), so whatever effect they have can probably reach every Elf who dwells within their spheres of influence.

 

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

Again, I do understand that is how it works in the books, I'm trying to figure out in the show, which parts of this was Sauron's plan and which was not.  In the show, does he ALREADY plan to make a ring later?  In the show, was he HOPING to have a direct hand in making the 3 elven rings?  Come to think of it, when he left I think they were still planning on making a crown...

 

Well, if Amazon's Sauron just happens to stumble across some smiths making powerful Rings instead of having planned it all along, he's a very cheap imitation of the genuine article.

 

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

I think that literally the only reason was that if he called himself that instead of Halbrand, every book-reader would know from moment one that he was Sauron.

 

Another victim of having everything happen so quickly then, I guess. Otherwise he could easily have at least acquired the name while working (for years, or even decades) in Eregion.