Rings of Power The Rings Of Power APPRECIATION thread

[Pellaeon 593]

31 minutes ago, Jay said:

I don't know what any of this means

 

Was something said in the show to the effect that the Stranger was “the other Istar”? That’s why I was thinking he was the second of the two.

 

19 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I think Tolkien mentioned somewhere (probably also in the Istari essay published in Unfinished Tales) that Gandalf spent an extended period of his early Middle-earth days in faraway lands as well?

 

No, I don’t think so. Saruman spent some centuries or millennia in the East. Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings stated,

 

“Many are my names in many countries. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.”

[Faleel 5,340]

I guess you could introduce Annatar as a term, "he came as an Annatar, but was really an enemy"

Just now, Pellaeon said:

 

Was something said in the show to the effect that the Stranger was “the other Istar”? That’s why I was thinking he was the second of the two.

 

 

 

No, he was introduced as "the other, the istar" meaning, "he is not Sauron, he is the other guy, that Istar dude'

[Jay 37,308]

14 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I fear there's just not enough logic to the changes the show makes (in contrast to the very strict logic in Tolkien's original). The Rings as such have the power to hold entire realms in temporal suspension (there's that other curious aspect of Lothlorien where time passes more slowly within its borders than in the rest of the world), so whatever effect they have can probably reach every Elf who dwells within their spheres of influence.

 

Again you're talking about different stuff with regards to the rings than I am, but that's OK - maybe somebody else will have any thoughts on the aspects of the rings and the "must bathe in mithril" stuff I am bringing up

 

14 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Well, if Amazon's Sauron just happens to stumble across some smiths making powerful Rings instead of having planned it all along, he's a very cheap imitation of the genuine article.

 

But that's kind of my point.  If you say for the sake of argument that he has spent the second age coming up with a grand plan to have a ring forged that will let him control other ring-bearers, how does that jive with him showing up on a raft near Valinor to kick off his plan.  How does mithril being an essential components of the rings factor into his plan - how did he even know mithril existed?  How did he know meeting Galadriel and then fighting with her in the Southlands would eventually lead to her bringing him into Eregion? 

 

I'm not asking for answers from the book, I'm trying to discuss the logic of the show itself, to see if there was something I missed.

 

14 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Another victim of having everything happen so quickly then, I guess. Otherwise he could easily have at least acquired the name while working (for years, or even decades) in Eregion.

 

I guess they could find a way to use that name in future seasons, presumably in scenes where Galadriel (and now Elrond?) are not around, to tell us the audience that it's Sauron without the characters knowing it?

 

11 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

Was something said in the show to the effect that the Stranger was “the other Istar”? That’s why I was thinking he was the second of the two.

 

Yea, but doesn't the Istari refer to all 5 wizards - Gandalf, Radagast, Sarumon, and the blues?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizards_in_Middle-earth

 

11 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

to the East I go not.”

 

[Faleel 5,340]

7 minutes ago, Roll the Bones said:

I guess you could introduce Annatar as a term, "he came as an Annatar, but was really an enemy"

 

Or...

[Marian Schedenig 8,175]

17 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

No, I don’t think so. Saruman spent some centuries or millennia in the East. Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings stated,

 

“Many are my names in many countries. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.”

 

Ah. I wasn't sure if I may be confusing the two, so I was probably remembering something about Saruman. (The bit about not going to the East I should have remember of course; although it doesn't necessarily imply that he *never* went there in his early days, before he assembled his neat collection of names).

 

11 minutes ago, Jay said:

Again you're talking about different stuff with regards to the rings than I am, but that's OK - maybe somebody else will have any thoughts on the aspects of the rings and the "must bathe in mithril" stuff I am bringing up

 

But that's kind of my point.  If you say for the sake of argument that he has spent the second age coming up with a grand plan to have a ring forged that will let him control other ring-bearers, how does that jive with him showing up on a raft near Valinor to kick off his plan.  How does mithril being an essential components of the rings factor into his plan - how did he even know mithril existed?  How did he know meeting Galadriel and then fighting with her in the Southlands would eventually lead to her bringing him to Eregion? 

 

I'm not asking for answers from the book, I'm trying to discuss the logic of the show itself, to see if there was something I missed.

 

I *think* I'm talking about the same stuff, just with a different point of view: I don't think the show has that much logic. They took Tolkien's stuff and rather awkwardly simplified at lot of it to make it "presentable" to "normal audiences", and then overly complicated the simplification by putting it all in shortened, concurrent storylines. I don't think there's more logic to it than:

 

1) Elves are dying, mithril to the rescue (show invention)

2) Rings of Power have a range effect

3) Rings of Power contain mithril (show invention), so their effect [2] cures all Elves [1]

 

Likewise, the fact that the whole brand new mithril dilemma discovery is inherently tied to getting the Rings project started in the first place probably either has no planned logical bearing on the fact that Sauron was already planning it all, or reduces Sauron to a bumbling guy who accidentally discovers a means to rule the world. I fear that thinking too much about it just shifts the argument to the other thread, away from this appreciation thread. It's annoying, because there's a lot I like about the show, and stuff like this makes me feel bad about appreciating it.

[Stark 310]

1 hour ago, Pellaeon said:

It seems more and more likely to me that the Stranger is one of the Blue Wizards.

 

1. Tolkien decided that the Blue Wizards arrived in Middle-earth in the Second Age. This nugget of information is not in any of the more well-known sources, but it is from Tolkien, so. If you were writing this show, you would jump at that opportunity.

 

2. They were active in the East / Rhûn / Rómen. That’s where the Stranger is headed, no? There was something about a constellation resembling an “R” rune.

 

3. One of the only things known about the Blue Wizards is that Pallando was the helper of Alatar. Another name for him is Rómestámo — East-helper. There was something about him being “the other Istar.” Alatar has preceded him.

 

4. “Follow your nose” — well, the Blue Wizards were servants of Oromë the Hunter. Sounds like a hunter’s instinct to me. Maybe Gandalf learned it from the Blue Wizards.

I hope that the Stranger is a blue wizard, but I suspect that his affinity for fire is meant to be a precursor to Gandalf eventually receiving the ring of fire from Cirdan.

[Pellaeon 593]

Wellp, what are the odds the studio hasn’t actually decided yet?

[Jay 37,308]

I dunno guys, it was clear as day to me that he's Gandalf ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

A lot of other stuff left me confused, but not that! 

[Pellaeon 593]

The official talking point is that he’s a Wizard and otherwise it’s up in the air:

 

The showrunners: https://movieweb.com/the-rings-of-power-showrunners-say-the-stranger-identity-open-question/

A writer: https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/is-rings-of-power-the-stranger-gandalf

The actor: https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power-gennifer-hutchison-interview-sauron-halbrand-the-stranger-gandalf-wizards-istar/

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

It's typical of mystery box writing.

 

They have hedged their bets.

 

It means - they can either reveal it to be - 

 

A. Gandalf

B. A Blue Wizard

C. Not reveal at all

 

And all 3 answers would work with everything they have shown.

[Score 770]

I think the character has some aspects of all the Istars (not just Gandalf; there are also bits of Saruman and Radagast in his behavior and characteristics), so he could even be a sort of composite character that will magically separate himself into the five guys. I would not be surprised should they go down that way.

 

[Jay 37,308]

Oh damn, that actually sounds possible... 

[Score 770]

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Oh damn, that actually sounds possible... 

 

Also notice that the Mystic says "he's the other one, the Istar", not "one of the Istars". It could mean that the Istar is originally a single entity. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,175]

So Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and the two Blue guys are all Olorin?

[Score 770]

11 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

So Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and the two Blue guys are all Olorin?

 

Was the character in the show specifically named Olorin? If so, I must have missed it, and I take my hypothesis back. 

 

In any case, it's just my guess, I have no inside info on Amazon's writing processes! For sure, such a solution would significantly infuriate the die-hard Tolkien fans, so (based on the previous events) I consider it as a likely possibility 

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

3 hours ago, Score said:

 character that will magically separate himself into the five guys

 

 

There is no precedent in Tolkien for this.  This would be entirely invented and kinda not originate from the lore in any shape or form.

[Marian Schedenig 8,175]

48 minutes ago, Score said:

Was the character in the show specifically named Olorin? If so, I must have missed it, and I take my hypothesis back. 

 

No, I don't think they'd even have the rights to that name. But book-Gandalf is "officially assumed to be" the Istar incarnation of the Maia Olorin, so if they're all originally the same guy, they all would have to be him.

[Jay 37,308]

18 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I *think* I'm talking about the same stuff, just with a different point of view: I don't think the show has that much logic. They took Tolkien's stuff and rather awkwardly simplified at lot of it to make it "presentable" to "normal audiences", and then overly complicated the simplification by putting it all in shortened, concurrent storylines. I don't think there's more logic to it than:

 

1) Elves are dying, mithril to the rescue (show invention)

2) Rings of Power have a range effect

3) Rings of Power contain mithril (show invention), so their effect [2] cures all Elves [1]

 

 

So you're saying the logic of the show is that having a small piece of mithril around (the one Elrond took out of Khazad-dun) does nothing to help the elves, but as soon as it was combined with the metals in Galadriel's dagger and turned into rings, that instantly saves the elves? 

 

Does it work just by existing, or does an elf have to wear it and "activate" some power in it to spread the mithril glow out?

[Pellaeon 593]

52 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

No, I don't think they'd even have the rights to that name. But book-Gandalf is "officially assumed to be" the Istar incarnation of the Maia Olorin, so if they're all originally the same guy, they all would have to be him.

 

Olórin is mentioned in The Lord of the RIngs, so, presumably allowed.

 

Also worth noting that the show does mention Armenelos (capital of Númenor) and Sigin-tarâg (Dwarvish for “Longbeards”), neither of which name originates in The Lord of the Rings. Make of that what you will.

[Marian Schedenig 8,175]

41 minutes ago, Jay said:

So you're saying the logic of the show is that having a small piece of mithril around (the one Elrond took out of Khazad-dun) does nothing to help the elves, but as soon as it was combined with the metals in Galadriel's dagger and turned into rings, that instantly saves the elves? 

 

Well, they're saying that it's much stronger as an alloy, so I think the idea is that in Ring form, it's powerful enough to counter whatever force is killing the Elves. Making their lands, within the sphere of the Rings' influence, safe dwellings for them.

 

41 minutes ago, Jay said:

Does it work just by existing, or does an elf have to wear it and "activate" some power in it to spread the mithril glow out?

 

However any of the Rings work, I suppose. PJ has wisely never shown us *how* the Rings work (aside from granting invisibility, which is their everyday gadget trick, in a way), and at least so far the series hasn't either. With Tolkien, I always assumed that they allow the bearer's mind to accomplish stuff, including communication with the other Rings (probably what Elrond, Galadriel, & Gandalf use to stay in contact, and what Sauron abused to dominate the Rings he knew), so there's clearly a telepathic component. In the same way, I assume making Mallorns grow is a telekinetic function. Preserving and healing probably works similarly, perhaps even as a passive feature.

[Jay 37,308]

4 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Well, they're saying that it's much stronger as an alloy, so I think the idea is that in Ring form, it's powerful enough to counter whatever force is killing the Elves. Making their lands, within the sphere of the Rings' influence, safe dwellings for them.

 

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

Now I get it (I think)

 

[Holko 9,499]

1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

There is no precedent in Tolkien for this.  This would be entirely invented and kinda not originate from the lore in any shape or form.

add it to the list

 

sorry, not in this thread

[Jay 37,308]

Yea back to appreciation:

You know, I REALLY liked the Sauron reveal in this episode.  They really made "Sauron The Deceiver" come to life.  

 

I love how he got Celebrimbor on his side through sheer flattery and ego-boosting.  I love that he said "consider it a gift".

 

I love how nobody was on to him at all except Galadriel, and once she found out, I loved the mind game he played with her.

 

It's a completely different villain than a soldier on the battlefield, or a floating eye on a tower... it was just all really well done and cool!

[Faleel 5,340]

9 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

I love how nobody was fooled except Galadriel, and once she found out, I loved the mind game he played with her.

 

I assume you meant to type "everybody"?

[Jay 37,308]

Typo fixed

[Marian Schedenig 8,175]

21 minutes ago, Jay said:

I love how he got Celebrimbor on his side through sheer flattery and ego-boosting.  I love that he said "consider it a gift".

 

I didn't remember that, it's actually a nice reference to his (unused (at least so far)) alias Annatar (Lord of Gifts)!

[Jay 37,308]

More stuff I liked about the Sauron reveal:

 

All season Galadriel has been shown to be the ultimate badass - taking down the snow troll by herself, easily winning any swordfight, her awesome dodge moves on horseback, etc etc.  There was a quick moment during the reveal sequence where she lunges at him with the dagger and he just stands there and SO EASILY blocks her with his arm with what looked like almost no effort.  It really showed how powerful he is compared to her and that even if she had found him in her centuries long quest, she probably would just lost to him.  I think the combination of the show and movie makes it clear that the only reason he was ultimately defeated was that he put all his power in the one ring, lost that ring, and then focused on men, ignoring the two Hobbits that walked it right into Mt Doom

 

Another awesome moment was when they were on the raft, and at one point he uses his powers to flatten out the waves and show in a reflection in the water, them standing side by side as king and queen.  That was such a cool effect!
 

I also liked that when she figured him out, he didn't just go evil and try to kill her nor try to escape; The mind game was super cool, but specifically the reveal that he doesnt even view her as his enemy, he wants to marry her and rule with her; there was a line that was something like "I will bond to your light and you will bond to my power" or something.  He's sort of doing the same thing he did with Celebrimbor, flattering her to try to get what he wants.  In this moment, I truly didn't know if he was actually being serious (and wouldn't turn evil until later in the show) or not.  Is it true he wants to heal the world?

 

I have to go back and see what Adar said about the magic Sauron was looking for because I don't really rememeber, but it did seem to be something along the lines of healing the world I thnk.

 

I really think all this stuff was the best part of the episode, and something the writers really nailed

[Stark 310]

16 hours ago, Jay said:

Yea back to appreciation:

You know, I REALLY liked the Sauron reveal in this episode.  They really made "Sauron The Deceiver" come to life.  

 

I love how he got Celebrimbor on his side through sheer flattery and ego-boosting.  I love that he said "consider it a gift".

 

I love how nobody was on to him at all except Galadriel, and once she found out, I loved the mind game he played with her.

 

It's a completely different villain than a soldier on the battlefield, or a floating eye on a tower... it was just all really well done and cool!

I agree, this sequence of events involving Sauron has no direct basis in the events of the books but the deception and its execution is exactly the kind of Sauron plot I wanted. And his reveal where he drops an equivalent to “you’re old but I’m older than time” is great.

[Jay 37,308]

16 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

I didn't remember that, it's actually a nice reference to his (unused (at least so far)) alias Annatar (Lord of Gifts)!

 

I found it on youtube, the actual line is "call it a gift"

 

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

17 hours ago, Jay said:

You know, I REALLY liked the Sauron reveal in this episode.  They really made "Sauron The Deceiver" come to life.  

If they really nailed Sauron as the deceiver, how come so many people had Halbrand pegged as the big flaming eye himself from the first moment he appeared? 🤔

[Jay 37,308]

That's a silly question to ask.  It's about him deceiving the other characters, not the audience.

If you don't like the reveal, take it to the other thread!

[Monoverantus 363]

Yeah, even I who don't like the Halbrand/Sauron mystery will happily admit that the reveal itself was really cool. It almost made me retroactively forget all the gripes I had with that plotline.

[Pellaeon 593]

Don’t you guys think the “gift” thing is mainly a reference to the famous Boromir meme?

 

Likewise, Sauron simply walking into Mordor?

[Jay 37,308]

No, I think it's mainly a reference to Sauron disguising himself as Annatar, the Lord of GIfts

 

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Sauron#Second_Age

[Marian Schedenig 8,175]

1 hour ago, Pellaeon said:

Don’t you guys think the “gift” thing is mainly a reference to the famous Boromir meme?

 

Likewise, Sauron simply walking into Mordor?

 

One does not simply know when the show runners deliberately use actual Tolkien lore and when they just reference the films as fan service.

[Stark 310]

On 21/10/2022 at 9:15 AM, Nick1Ø66 said:

If they really nailed Sauron as the deceiver, how come so many people had Halbrand pegged as the big flaming eye himself from the first moment he appeared? 🤔

To be fair, all the viewers who read the books know that “Sauron appearing in fair form” is his most notable tactic in the second age - the characters have no such advantage. From what I’ve heard, non-book readers were mostly surprised.

[Jay 37,308]

Another thing I really liked about the season: The Mystics!

 

When they first showed up, I was kind of taken aback, I thought they looked so bizarre, like almost out of a different show maybe.  However, I very quickly changed my mind.

 

I think when it comes down to it, while I understand why the makers of the show followed the look of Peter Jackson's films for so many things, and basically the overall aesthetic, what I came to like most about the show is the things that were different.  I liked seeing different Elven, man, and Dwarf towns, I liked characters and plot setups that weren't just variations on LOTR stuff.  

 

The Mystics ended up being the best kind of different for me; With their short hair, funky eyes, cool white outfits, and the way that their hands were like dipped in blackness, it was all cool.  And I liked that their purpose and extent of their powers was not stretched out;  In their first episode, you just get a small scene to introduce them.  In their second episode, you learn they can disappear (fast travel?), extinguish flame, and shoot it back out to burn a whole area; In their third episode, you learn they can mask themselves as others, are from the east and are Sauron followers, and apparently turn into moths when killed (?).

I dunno, I just liked these guys!

 

BTW: Did anybody notice that it's only Bear's soundtrack albums that refer to them as "The Mystics"?  In the show itself, the actors are credited as "The Ascetic", "The Nomad", and "The Dweller"

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

I did notice that. Thought it was interesting.

 

I would've thought they be credited as:

The Mystics:

Ascetic - name

Nomad - name

Dweller - name

[Jay 37,308]

I assume "The Mystics" is a term Bear got from the writer's room if not the final scripts, but I suppose he could have just made it up! 

 

I am curious if there are any other ancillary media that refers to them as such - and what that name even means!

[Jay 37,308]

 

 

[TolkienSS 405]

Cameron seems to be very desparate to rally any viewers he can get for Avatar 2, if he sinks as low as this 

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

I see no one has commented this but Ismael Cruz Cordova, who plays Arondir, has been nominated for a Critics Choice Awards for Best Supporting Actor in a Supporting Role in a Drama Series.

 

I thought he gave one the 3 best performances, so feel this is very deserved

[Stark 310]

As someone who liked the show but wasn’t hugely impressed by its portrayal of the elves, I did think he was the best elf.

[mstrox 6,647]

Still can’t get over the fact that they recast the most interesting character/performance for the second season!  Bummer!