When people bring up Hans Zimmer: is it just me?

[Sandor 797]

Imagine two guys who never met before starting a conversation somewhere in the mid 80’s about music. Guy A says he’s really into rock and heavy metal to which guy B responds: ‘Yeah, I like rock too.’ Guy A brings up legendary bands like Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Rush and Black Sabbath and guy B says he loves Stairway To Heaven by Led Zeppelin. Guy A says he’s also into current bands like Iron Maiden, Slayer, Anthrax and Metallica to which guy B responds: ‘You know who’s also really good right now? Bon Jovi!’ 

 

When people bring up Hans Zimmer when I’m expressing my love for film music and composers like John Williams, Ennio Morricone and Jerry Goldsmith, I often feel like guy A.

 

It’s not that Bon Jovi is a bad band. They successfully bridged rock and pop and made rock music more mainstream than before. But an Iron Maiden fan wouldn’t necessarily be into Bon Jovi, just because both bands classify as ‘rock bands’.

 

My interest in film music started at a young age when I thought of film composers as ‘classical composers like Beethoven or Mozart, but then working today.’ With his many iconic themes to my favourite films growing up and his grand orchestral sound, John Williams became the best example of this notion.

 

I like that traditional methods of composing live on and that film has become a canvas on which composers can express themselves, just like composers in the past worked on ballets, operas and such.

 

It is part of my fascination for film music.

 

So when I talk about film music, I will always mention the work ethic involved and the artistry of writing for a symphony orchestra. John Williams, Ennio Morricone, Jerry Goldsmith, John Barry, James Horner, Howard Shore: these are the kind of film music composers that sparked my interest in the genre.

 

Hans Zimmer is not a bad composer by any means. He sort of re-invented film music by partly replacing the traditional symphony orchestra with electronics, rock guitars and such. His composing method is one of collaboration, much different than John Williams who sits alone behind his piano writing the notes down with a pencil on paper which will eventually lead to a complex and profound symphonic work.

 

The music of Hans Zimmer simply doesn’t harmonise with my personal interest in film music, which is more an interest in the continuation of symphonic composition than specifically the film music genre.

 

When I express my fondness for John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith and someone brings up Hans Zimmer as in: ‘He’s also good’, it doesn’t quite feel right.

 

Can anyone relate or is it just me?

[Tallguy 3,386]

I guess I can. I can understand loving Zimmer. I just can't understand him being your favorite.

 

OTOH, I'm sure there's a generation of film music fan who shook their heads when all these kids who had never heard of the good composers like Korngold and Waxman kept going on about this Star Wars and Superman nonsense.

[Jay 37,353]

It doesn't bother me in the slightest that random people I bump into are familiar with Zimmer's film music, and like it

[Sandor 797]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

It doesn't bother me in the slightest that random people I bump into are familiar with Zimmer's film music, and like it

I didn’t say it bothers me -it doesn’t- and I own quite a few Zimmer scores. It’s something different…

[Toillion 215]

I'm just happy if I can find someone to talk about film music with in person! But yeah, so many people would just group all film composers together in one category even though there are many different styles. 

 

Somewhat related to your topic. A friend was over at my house recently and they asked me what my kids were going to think when they become school age and realized that is wasn't normal to listen to film scores. 

[Jay 37,353]

6 minutes ago, Toillion said:

A friend was over at my house recently and they asked me what my kids were going to think when they become school age and realized that is wasn't normal to listen to film scores. 

 

That's funny

[WampaRat 1,105]

8 hours ago, Toillion said:

Somewhat related to your topic. A friend was over at my house recently and they asked me what my kids were going to think when they become school age and realized that is wasn't normal to listen to film scores.

This crosses my mind quite a bit. My 5 year old is already very familiar with films scores thanks to Dad lol. He LOVES “My First Bus ride” from Mummy Returns. He’s always asking “What’s this one from Dad? Whats happening in this part?” 
 

But related to the topic, I get that vibe sometimes from other score nerds if I say I like Zimmer’s stuff:

“Oh…you like Zimmer..*I didn’t know I was better than you*” haha. But yes. Generally I’m just happy to encounter anyone who enjoys scores.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

3 hours ago, Sandor said:

Imagine two guys who never met before starting a conversation somewhere in the mid 80’s about music. Guy A says he’s really into rock and heavy metal to which guy B responds: ‘Yeah, I like rock too.’ Guy A brings up legendary bands like Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Rush and Black Sabbath and guy B says he loves Stairway To Heaven by Led Zeppelin. Guy A says he’s also into current bands like Iron Maiden, Slayer, Anthrax and Metallica to which guy B responds: ‘You know who’s also really good right now? Bon Jovi!’ 

 

When people bring up Hans Zimmer when I’m expressing my love for film music and composers like John Williams, Ennio Morricone and Jerry Goldsmith, I often feel like guy A.

 

Can anyone relate or is it just me?

 

Maybe you need to pick different people to talk to.

[Andy 4,123]

6 hours ago, Toillion said:

 A friend was over at my house recently and they asked me what my kids were going to think when they become school age and realized that is wasn't normal to listen to film scores. 

What’s “normal”?  You’re a great parent, giving your child an extra capacity for learning and empathy. Everyone else is doing it wrong. 
 

 

5 hours ago, WampaRat said:

This crosses my mind quite a bit. My 5 year old is already very familiar with films scores thanks to Dad lol. He LOVES “My First Bus ride” from Mummy Returns. He’s always asking “What’s this one from Dad? Whats happening in this part?” 

I love it. As an educator who has worked with probably in the hundreds of thousands of children over my career, I say your child is asking awesome  questions, and working out complex correlations of music to storytelling in their young mind.  Good job to both of you!

[WampaRat 1,105]

59 minutes ago, Andy said:

love it. As an educator who has worked with probably in the hundreds of thousands of children over my career, I say your child is asking awesome  questions, and working out complex correlations of music to storytelling in their young mind.  Good job to both of you!

Thanks! Ya it makes me proud. He’s a pretty smart guy. 

[Sandor 797]

I added this to the original post to clarify my viewpoint:

 

It’s not that Bon Jovi is a bad band. They successfully bridged rock and pop and made rock music more mainstream than before. But an Iron Maiden fan wouldn’t necessarily be into Bon Jovi, just because both bands classify as ‘rock bands’.

 

My interest in film music started at a young age when I thought of film composers as ‘classical composers like Beethoven or Mozart, but then working today.’ With his many iconic themes to my favourite films growing up and his grand orchestral sound, John Williams became the best example of this notion.

 

I like that traditional methods of composing live on and that film has become a canvas on which composers can express themselves, just like composers in the past worked on ballets, operas and such.

 

It is part of my fascination for film music.

 

So when I talk about film music, I will always mention the work ethic involved and the artistry of writing for a symphony orchestra. John Williams, Ennio Morricone, Jerry Goldsmith, John Barry, James Horner, Howard Shore: these are the kind of film music composers that sparked my interest in the genre.

 

Hans Zimmer is not a bad composer by any means. He sort of re-invented film music by partly replacing the traditional symphony orchestra with electronics, rock guitars and such. His composing method is one of collaboration, much different than John Williams who sits alone behind his piano writing the notes down with a pencil on paper which will eventually lead to a complex and profound symphonic work.

 

The music of Hans Zimmer simply doesn’t harmonise with my personal interest in film music, which is more an interest in the continuation of symphonic composition than specifically the film music genre.

 

When I express my fondness for John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith and someone brings up Hans Zimmer as in: ‘He’s also good’, it doesn’t quite feel right.

[GerateWohl 4,357]

It's like comparing the Beatles with Bad Religion. You might like both for what they are. But if you talk about appreciating originality, artistry and musical quality then you are not in the mood to talk about 1-2-3-4 punk bands.

[BB-8 3,473]

12 hours ago, Sandor said:

Imagine two guys who never met before starting a conversation somewhere in the mid 80’s about music. Guy A says he’s really into rock and heavy metal to which guy B responds: ‘Yeah, I like rock too.’ Guy A brings up legendary bands like Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Rush and Black Sabbath and guy B says he loves Stairway To Heaven by Led Zeppelin. Guy A says he’s also into current bands like Iron Maiden, Slayer, Anthrax and Metallica to which guy B responds: ‘You know who’s also really good right now? Bon Jovi!’ 

 

When people bring up Hans Zimmer when I’m expressing my love for film music and composers like John Williams, Ennio Morricone and Jerry Goldsmith, I often feel like guy A.

 

It’s not that Bon Jovi is a bad band. They successfully bridged rock and pop and made rock music more mainstream than before. But an Iron Maiden fan wouldn’t necessarily be into Bon Jovi, just because both bands classify as ‘rock bands’.

 

My interest in film music started at a young age when I thought of film composers as ‘classical composers like Beethoven or Mozart, but then working today.’ With his many iconic themes to my favourite films growing up and his grand orchestral sound, John Williams became the best example of this notion.

 

I like that traditional methods of composing live on and that film has become a canvas on which composers can express themselves, just like composers in the past worked on ballets, operas and such.

 

It is part of my fascination for film music.

 

So when I talk about film music, I will always mention the work ethic involved and the artistry of writing for a symphony orchestra. John Williams, Ennio Morricone, Jerry Goldsmith, John Barry, James Horner, Howard Shore: these are the kind of film music composers that sparked my interest in the genre.

 

Hans Zimmer is not a bad composer by any means. He sort of re-invented film music by partly replacing the traditional symphony orchestra with electronics, rock guitars and such. His composing method is one of collaboration, much different than John Williams who sits alone behind his piano writing the notes down with a pencil on paper which will eventually lead to a complex and profound symphonic work.

 

The music of Hans Zimmer simply doesn’t harmonise with my personal interest in film music, which is more an interest in the continuation of symphonic composition than specifically the film music genre.

 

When I express my fondness for John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith and someone brings up Hans Zimmer as in: ‘He’s also good’, it doesn’t quite feel right.

 

Can anyone relate or is it just me?

 

I do get your point.

 

It's a bit like comparing Puccini and Andrew Lloyd-Webber. Both have nice melodies, both wrote for theatre, both were/are very successful, both are easy-listening and are loved by the masses.

 

But why is it that musicals are second rate for me?

 

Perhaps Williams' handcrafting (with a Bleistift, ja...ja) appeals more to my conservative understanding and/or romanticized view of how the creative process should be - emotion recaptured in tranquility, freed from any commercial interests or technological innovation. While Zimmer seems to focus more on emotion and (synth) effects rather than on emotion and stylistic perfection.

 

Both serve the film in some way or the other. But I would probably say that "Zimmer is not bad, but not as good as Williams" rather than "Zimmer is also good.".

 

Perhaps Williams and Puccini are just the better craftsmen in an old-fashioned sense.

[WampaRat 1,105]

5 hours ago, Sandor said:

Hans Zimmer is not a bad composer by any means. He sort of re-invented film music by partly replacing the traditional symphony orchestra with electronics, rock guitars and such. His composing method is one of collaboration, much different than John Williams who sits alone behind his piano writing the notes down with a pencil on paper which will eventually lead to a complex and profound symphonic work.

 

The music of Hans Zimmer simply doesn’t harmonise with my personal interest in film music, which is more an interest in the continuation of symphonic composition than specifically the film music genre.

Ah I understand now.

Yeah I can see this. Hans is definitely in a different class of composer than Williams, Goldsmith, Horner, etc.

[GerateWohl 4,357]

I mean, in film music the spectrum of musical styles, musical genres etc. is same as wide as in pop music.

Now show me one fan of pop music, who says "I like all pop bands and solo artists. Because I love pop music, I don't make a difference between any of the pop artists. I like everything, that I hear on the radio." 

You might find people saying something like this, but not, if they call themselves actually "fans" of something. Then you have a handful of favourite bands and call the rest rubbish.

For example, people calling themselves "fans of good pop music", usually passionately dislike most of the songs presented on the European Song Contest (for good reasons).

 

So, why would one expect anyone to say, I like film music, so I like everything in that area?

As typical for fans, I would expect, a real fan might like a handful of composers or a certain filmmusic style and dislike all the rest. That is quite common for music fans, I think.

 

[Tallguy 3,386]

OMG. This is the most reasonable conversation about Zimmer that I HAVE EVER SEEN!

[Edmilson 7,436]

10 hours ago, Sandor said:

When I express my fondness for John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith and someone brings up Hans Zimmer as in: ‘He’s also good’, it doesn’t quite feel right.

 

9 hours ago, BB-8 said:

Both serve the film in some way or the other. But I would probably say that "Zimmer is not bad, but not as good as Williams" rather than "Zimmer is also good.".

 

Exactly my opinion.

 

It's so sad to see that we're in the minority, though. Go to a YouTube comment section or a Reddit thread on superheroes and Zimmer (plus his min..., I mean, his collaborators) are worshipped like film music gods.

[GerateWohl 4,357]

Amazon permanently proposes me to buy Hans Zimmer CDs. Even though I never bought one. But I bought Williams, Elfman, Shore, Waxman, Herrmann, Steiner, Korngold, Rózsa. So they think, I surely like Zimmer, too.

 

[WampaRat 1,105]

I’m trying to think. My knowledge of Golden Age film scores and their composers is pretty small. But was there ever the equivalent of a  “Zimmer-like” composer in that era? Someone who was essentially the Rock star of the film score world, causing a shift in the industry? Someone who was both adored by some and others rolled their eyes at? Maybe Henri Mancini as he came on the scene later on?
 

I guess being a “film composer” itself brought on some eye rolling from serious classical music enthusiasts in those days. 

[Tallguy 3,386]

I once heard Maurice Jarre referred to as "The Danny Elfman of his day".

 

Alex North?

[WampaRat 1,105]

30 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

I once heard Maurice Jarre referred to as "The Danny Elfman of his day".

 

Alex North?

Huh. Was Jarre in a band or self taught or something?

 

I guess in the classical world Stravinsky would definitely be pretty punk.

 

 

[Richard Penna 3,686]

4 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Go to a YouTube comment section or a Reddit thread on superheroes and Zimmer (plus his min..., I mean, his collaborators) are worshipped like film music gods.

 

That is definitely weird, but given my 'upbringing' in scores I can see where they come from. I definitely fall into the 'Zimmer is also good' camp for the reason that while Williams may be amazing at complex orchestrations and a good melody, Zimmer for me has a real talent for creating direct, emotional themes, and I'm not just talking about power anthems. There are some amazingly memorably long-lined themes in Da Vinci Code, The Lone Ranger, to cite two examples.

 

Even something as relatively simple as Gladiator (my favourite Zimmer, and one of my top scores of all time), where the action is understandably maligned by some, has some really memorable and strong passages in terms of sheer emotion and power, even if it's just some brass blaring out over some synths.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Personally I think it's more annoying when people bring up Zimmer out of the blue to disparage him. It happens here all the time - there'll be a conversation about a completely different composer (often Williams) and certain people feel the need to mention how much they hate Zimmer with absolutely no relevance to the topic at hand.

[pete 907]

I've got to say that a Zimmer concert I attended about four years ago was one of the most joyous concerts I've ever attended. Not that I enjoyed Williams in London in 1998 any less, far from it, but the atmosphere at the Zimmer show and the energy and passion of the performers was really something special.

[Sandor 797]

7 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

Personally I think it's more annoying when people bring up Zimmer out of the blue to disparage him. It happens here all the time - there'll be a conversation about a completely different composer (often Williams) and certain people feel the need to mention how much they hate Zimmer with absolutely no relevance to the topic at hand.

 

I agree completely, but I've noticed that this is really an internet/keyboard-warrior thing. When talking to regular people 'outside The Matrix' I've never encountered this kind of bashing or ridiculing. 

 

In fact; there people hold Hans Zimmer in high regard and don't seem to be aware that the mechanisms behind a score like E.T. or Lord Of The Rings are very different from a score like Gladiator or Pirates Of The Caribbean.

 

 

8 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 

That is definitely weird, but given my 'upbringing' in scores I can see where they come from. I definitely fall into the 'Zimmer is also good' camp for the reason that while Williams may be amazing at complex orchestrations and a good melody, Zimmer for me has a real talent for creating direct, emotional themes, and I'm not just talking about power anthems. There are some amazingly memorably long-lined themes in Da Vinci Code, The Lone Ranger, to cite two examples.

 

I've always felt that purely melodically speaking, Zimmer has an immense talent. 

[GerateWohl 4,357]

48 minutes ago, Sandor said:

I've always felt that purely melodically speaking, Zimmer has an immense talent. 

But why is he holding it back?

 

Honestly, I believe, Zimmer is a great guy, who has really changed the industry. His music is absolutely not my taste and his orchestral writing has as much to do with classical music as chewing gum with salad. But as there is an audience for that, that's perfectly fine.

As long as you don't put him into the same bucket with people like John Williams, who really know how to use a symphony orchestra. And that is the subject of this thread for my understanding.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

I'd never put him in the same bucket as Williams in terms of music theory and use of the orchestra, absolutely. I talk in terms of themes, their effectiveness, memorability and emotion, if the listener isn't putting pure craftsmanship ahead of their heart.

[BB-8 3,473]

To be fair, I would say that Zimmer himself has never claimed to be on the same level as Williams and he probably worships him just like any other fan.

[GerateWohl 4,357]

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

I'd never put him in the same bucket as Williams in terms of music theory and use of the orchestra, absolutely. I talk in terms of themes, their effectiveness, memorability and emotion, if the listener isn't putting pure craftsmanship ahead of their heart.

Concerning memorable themes, my impression is, that HZ wrote in all his career at max a handful or a dozen of themes. Not more. Most of his music doesn't contain any themes or even melodies. He usually just uses chord sequences, which is quite effective and doesn't distract the viewer from the action on screen. And for my understanding, that is exactly what he brought into the genre: Away from themes and just use rhythm and harmony.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

I think that's true for some  of his works, but the suggestion that he's only ever written a dozen themes or that most of his scores don't contain themes at all is very misguided IMO. Perhaps an indication that you don't listen to his work much, which is understandable if you don't like his music.

[Tallguy 3,386]

2 hours ago, BB-8 said:

To be fair, I would say that Zimmer himself has never claimed to be on the same level as Williams and he probably worships him just like any other fan.

 

I think he's pretty much said as much.

[GerateWohl 4,357]

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

Perhaps an indication that you don't listen to his work much, which is understandable if you don't like his music.

Right. I don't listen much to his music. Actally, I listen to it in the movies. Long ago I tried some score albums with little joy and once I listened on youtube to a Hans Zimmer/John Williams mesh-up which was basically John Williams themes on top of Hans Zimmer chord sequences. I hardly recognise themes in Zimmers work, and if there is a melody, I miss an interesting counterpoint or something like that. Usually the melodies are then underlaid by another sound wall chord carpet. That's really not my thing. At least not in pure orchestral music.

[Stark 312]

On 14/10/2022 at 6:38 AM, GerateWohl said:

Concerning memorable themes, my impression is, that HZ wrote in all his career at max a handful or a dozen of themes. Not more. Most of his music doesn't contain any themes or even melodies. He usually just uses chord sequences, which is quite effective and doesn't distract the viewer from the action on screen. And for my understanding, that is exactly what he brought into the genre: Away from themes and just use rhythm and harmony.

There’s a dozen themes in the third Pirates movie alone!

[Tallguy 3,386]

7 minutes ago, Stark said:

There’s a dozen themes in the third Pirates movie alone!

 

To be fair, that was kind of the end of his Theme Writing period. (And yes there are! I LOVE At World's End!)

[JoeinAR 1,949]

You know I sing his praises all the time. 

[TolkienSS 407]

I feel like I'm in a time warp reading the OP. It's 2022 right?

It's 2022 and Zimmer has achieved legend status for more or less 10 years now already, and has been a film score megastar for about 20 now.

No matter how you feel towards his music, you would think 10-20 years is plenty to get used to his existence.

 

I mean, being vexed by a Hans Zimmer namedrop when talking about famous film music in 2022 is a little ... odd.

 

That's like living in 1991 and being surprised that in a discussion about film music of Herrmann and Rosza, someone mentions "I like that John Williams guy".

[Tom 4,654]

My issue is not Hans per se.  I think his thematic work is quite good--not on the level of Horner, Goldsmith, and Williams, but noticeably strong.  However, the droning is intolerable (to me).  When people bring him up in everyday life, 95% of the time it is droning Zimmer and not thematic Zimmer that they are excited about.  At the end of the day, though, I don't get too worked up about what others think, and if I did, it would not be about this.  

[Sandor 797]

15 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

I feel like I'm in a time warp reading the OP. It's 2022 right?

It's 2022 and Zimmer has achieved legend status for more or less 10 years now already, and has been a film score megastar for about 20 now.

No matter how you feel towards his music, you would think 10-20 years is plenty to get used to his existence.

 

I mean, being vexed by a Hans Zimmer namedrop when talking about famous film music in 2022 is a little ... odd.

 

That's like living in 1991 and being surprised that in a discussion about film music of Herrmann and Rosza, someone mentions "I like that John Williams guy".

 

Your rhetoric only makes sense when you ‘misquote’ me, by suggesting I was referring to discussions about ‘famous film music’ when I was actually referring to composers who continue working in the classical/symphonic idiom and to whom the film industry has proven to be an effective portal to reach a large audience (and still a pay-check nowadays).

 

I never disputed or discredited Zimmer's popularity and achievements, but I don’t think you really understood my point and that’s ok.

[GerateWohl 4,357]

I understood this thread in the sense of the Initial comparison with classic hard rock bands and Bon Jovi, who is rather a pop musician with a rocker attitude. And I think, there Sandor got a point.

 

[Holko 9,525]

8 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

Rosza

shows how seriously you can be taken