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New Podcast Series: The Complete John Williams Television Music Walkthrough


Thor

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This is great (as the previous parts). I really enjoyed learning about a TV show I had never heard of before, several I had heard of but never heard the music, as well as Gilligan's Island (brings back memories hearing it as a kid).

 

Nice work!

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9 hours ago, Thor said:

Thanks for the comments, Gurkensalat!

 

I've wanted to offer the podcast on more traditional platforms (like Apple or Spotify) since the beginning in 2013, but unfortunately, there are rights issues involved, especially when I use full musical clips from soundtrack recordings rather than brief, 30-second snippets that would pass as free 'quotes'. So although I sometimes label it a podcast, it is technically a webcast that is only available as streaming, not as downloadable content. Since I don't have the money to pay for rights, and since I want to play full clips, that's how it turned out. Maybe some day, I'll make revised editions where I cut down all the clips to quote size, hence making them eligible for traditional podcast platforms. We'll see! :)


It doesn't matter if you play one second or three minutes of a clip; the moment you play music without authorization, you are technically violating copyright law. The same is true for streaming content, however playing a piece of music for 30 seconds or less does not constitute fair use. Now, fair use laws may be different in your country, so there may be 30 seconds or less fair use rules there, but once you offer the show outside of Norway, you must follow the standards of all of the countries to whom you are offering your show.

 

-Erik-

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5 minutes ago, Erik Woods said:


It doesn't matter if you play one second or three minutes of a clip; the moment you play music without authorization, you are technically violating copyright law. The same is true for streaming content, however playing a piece of music for 30 seconds or less does not constitute fair use. Now, fair use laws may be different in your country, so there may be 30 seconds or less fair use rules there, but once you offer the show outside of Norway, you must follow the standards of all of the countries to whom you are offering your show.

 

-Erik-

 

How do you pay copyright for all the music you showcase in your own shows?

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20 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

How do you pay copyright for all the music you showcase in your own shows?


I pay a yearly podcast licensing fee to SOCAN. I also have agreements with the labels to play music from their catalogues just as long as I promote the label on the show when I play their stuff. Throughout my years of doing my show and podcasting, I've only had one take down notice and that was for a show that's not on my network but I do host on my server.

My friend (who I share server space with) and I got a notice from a Bollywood label that asked for us to remove a show that contained music from their album. We did, and that was it. Could it have been worse? Probably, but we were professional about it and nothing else came from it.

And if any other label, composer or whomever wants us to take something down, I will do so immediately, but since 2013, which is how long I've been streaming the show and making it available as a podcast, I've only had the one incident... and it wasn't even my show.  

 

-Erik-

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This is veering off-topic, but it's something that always comes up when people ask why my show isn't on mainstream podcast platforms.

 

In Norway, quotation rights aren't tied to seconds, specifically, but rather more vague directions about the point you want to make with the quote. So I think of 30 seconds more as an "average" for that purpose. When I researched this way back when, I found out that Norwegian copyright law does not differentiate between the podcast being exclusively for Norwegian listeners or for foreign countries. That's hard to do, anyway, with things existing online. The quotation rights are tied to where the podcast is being produced.

 

Now I'll be the first to admit I'm definitely in murky waters with my full clips, even if I only offer it as streaming, and not download, i.e. webcast, not podcast. But should there be an 'incident', streaming is always better than download, and by keeping it off the big platforms, I restrict exposure somewhat.

 

I also have standing deals with Norwegian music organizations, and with the individual composers about playing their music. Same for new, international promos. The problem is for older recordings, of course. So far, no one has contacted me about taking things down. If they do, I will comply (that's one of the reasons for why I've started keeping my work files, so I can easily edit the shows without them losing their sound quality, i.e. by editing an existing mp3).

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2 minutes ago, Thor said:

If they do, I will comply (that's one of the reasons for why I've started keeping my work files, so I can easily edit the shows without them losing their sound quality, i.e. by editing an existing mp3).

 

That's why you've started keeping your raw files?

 

What did you do in the past!?

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To save space, because the files were/are huge. Not so much a problem anymore, with various backup solutions.

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43 minutes ago, Thor said:

Now I'll be the first to admit I'm definitely in murky waters with my full clips, even if I only offer it as streaming, and not download, i.e. webcast, not podcast. But should there be an 'incident', streaming is always better than download, and by keeping it off the big platforms, I restrict exposure somewhat.

 


Just to let you know that when someone "streams" your show, they are still downloading it into a cache on their computer/device so technically they are still downloading the show. Having said that, that stream of data doesn't stay on your device after the stream is done. But even if you download or stream, someone is still accessing that audio, which are governed by copyright rules/laws. Your show, as does mind, falls under a non-interactive license. "Non-interactive music streaming differs from on-demand, or interactive, streaming because it allows users to play music but does not allow them to select the song that plays next."  

Anyway, as you said, this is getting a bit off topic, but if you think you are safe just offering a stream instead of a download, you are gravely mistaken. Then again, someone coming after you is highly unlikely but there is still a chance and I hope that never happens.

 

-Erik-

6 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Does this make your podcasts legal outside the USA?


Technically, no, at least I don't think so. If I wanted to make my show fully legal around the world, I would have to get licenses for every county I offer the show to... I think. I have looked into it but not as much as I did when I got my SOCAN license. But I do know that SOCAN has agreements with other international copyright and performing rights organizations around the world. 

This is something that I will be actively looking into some time in the future. 

 

-Erik-

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53 minutes ago, Thor said:

To save space, because the files were/are huge. Not so much a problem anymore, with various backup solutions.


Wow!  That's nuts. Ever since I started recording my show to minidisc from the board at C101.5FM, I made sure to keep all my original and RAW files. I know hard drive space was a bit more expensive back then, but I made sure to pay whatever I could to make sure I had a digital library of all my shows... just in case.

 

-Erik-

1 minute ago, Thor said:

Making it a streaming webcast, rather than a downloadable podcast, was the recommendation from NOPA and TONO (akin to Canadian SOCAN), which I met during those early years to talk about the nuts and bolts of this thing. I'm definitely not in the 'clear' and not 'safe', as they also made sure to point out -- especially for older, non-Norwegian recordings -- but it gives me a better position from which to negotiate should a situation occur. Of course, anyone with a bit of tech savvy could easily find ways to download my webcast anyway, but that's difficult to control.


At least you've done your due diligence. A lot of podcasters don't.

 

-Erik-

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16 hours ago, Gurkensalat said:

 

I prefer not to have the phone with me. I generally do not like using a smartphone and accept it only grudgingly as a basis station for the Watch. It is just an iPhone SE from 2016 which has been handed down from my son to my daughter and now to me, since the front camera got milky, the main button does not work any more and the battery is weak.  I know that I am a rare case, but I am just happier with my iPad plus Watch. 

 

"I call it Horse Refusing to Drink."

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Just because I do not want to live on coffee to go (iPhone) all the time and instead prefer to sit down at home for a larger drink (iPad)? :-)

 

On Topic: started part 3 today and discovered that a complete soundtrack of a TV episode from the Eleventh Hour is commercially available! The Podcast is really informative.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thank you for your insightful comments (as always), Josh!

 

14 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Interesting scenario with Wild Country where his theme was used by another composer due to the pilot of the show being taken from an Alcoa Premiere episode Williams scored. And then a similar situation where music from Wagon Train was reused for The Virginian. I never knew about these things, very interesting to learn. 

 

Just to be clear: I can't say with 100% certainty that it's another composer -- like series composer Morton Stevens -- rearranging Williams' "Second Chance" theme for WILD COUNTRY, or if it's the exact same theme and recording, pasted in. I think the latter is the most likely, actually. It's certainly not the slow version that was recorded specifically for the THEMES TO REMEMBER album; that is its own thing.

 

14 hours ago, MrJosh said:

To make sure I got it right:

Kraft Mystery Theatre (1961-1963)

-Williams writes Season 3 theme, and 3 episode scores. 

-Also, there are 3 episodes from Alcoa Premiere being reused in this series, which have Williams music.

Kraft Suspense Theatre (1963-1964)

-Williams writes Main Theme, 17 episode scores for Season 1, and 2 episode scores for Season 2. 

 

Did I get that right? If not, then I will go drink more espresso and give it another listen!

 

Yes, that's right! Well done in following the sequence of events there. Of course, some of this information may be amended in the future, but that's status quo.

 

14 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Did Williams score the movie version separately, or does the Sergeant Ryker film just contain the same music and recording as the first two Kraft Suspense episodes?

 

How deeply involved Williams was with the film version of RYKER, or if it was merely a music supervisor reshuffling and editing the material from the double-episode/third episode for the film version, is unknown at the present time. What I can say for sure is that I didn't hear the exact same version of the RYKER film theme anywhere in the episode "The End of the World, Baby". So it could possibly be a rerecording, or a version of the theme that did not appear in the episode, but that was nonetheless recorded for it. It's all very complex and mysterious.

 

By the way, part 5 is due on Monday.

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1 hour ago, Thor said:

Just to be clear: I can't say with 100% certainty that it's another composer -- like series composer Morton Stevens -- rearranging Williams' "Second Chance" theme for WILD COUNTRY, or if it's the exact same theme and recording, pasted in. I think the latter is the most likely, actually. It's certainly not the slow version that was recorded specifically for the THEMES TO REMEMBER album; that is its own thing.

ok, got it. that makes sense!

 

1 hour ago, Thor said:

How deeply involved Williams was with the film version of RYKER, or if it was merely a music supervisor reshuffling and editing the material from the double-episode/third episode for the film version, is unknown at the present time. What I can say for sure is that I didn't hear the exact same version of the RYKER film theme anywhere in the episode "The End of the World, Baby". So it could possibly be a rerecording, or a version of the theme that did not appear in the episode, but that was nonetheless recorded for it. It's all very complex and mysterious.

Thanks for answering my extra questions!

 

On a side-note, I'm surprised that these older TV series haven't been worked on to restore and release, because as your commentary points out, there are some cool appearances by certain actors and actresses that I would think should be preserved and appreciated, such as Fred Astaire in Alcoa Premiere.

 

I sure hope these series can be watched and appreciated again in the future, and not having to be hunted down in poor quality sources.

 

 

1 hour ago, Thor said:

By the way, part 5 is due on Monday.

wow! I need to catch up! You're on a roll.

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34 minutes ago, MrJosh said:

On a side-note, I'm surprised that these older TV series haven't been worked on to restore and release, because as your commentary points out, there are some cool appearances by certain actors and actresses that I would think should be preserved and appreciated, such as Fred Astaire in Alcoa Premiere.

 

I sure hope these series can be watched and appreciated again in the future, and not having to be hunted down in poor quality sources.

 

Oh, you and me both! Why these anthology shows have such poor track record of getting released on video formats, is something I've been curious about too -- and my knowledge of old US television is limited. Obviously, most shows in the 40s and 50s (and, I guess, early 60s?) were entirely broadcast "live", and as such don't really exist anymore. Or shows in-between, like PLAYHOUSE 90, which had the early seasons broadcast live, and the latter shot on video or film, AFAIK. So it's easier to find episodes of the latter than the former. Then there's the whole issue of anthology shows having so many different cast and crew members attached, often big stars, so it must be a rights nightmare to clear. I'd welcome input from people more savvy about old US television than I am (hey, Jon Burlingame, are you reading this?).

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That is an interesting point. I mean, I grew up watching a lot of silent movie and short films like Harold Lloyd, The Little Rascals, Laurel and Hardy, Buster Keaton, Charles Chaplin or the old black and white western series like Zorro and stuff like that form the 30s.

So more or less being connected with film history and following the development of the medium for the last 50 years.

But I think, a lot of young people missed that connection and so not necesarily have such an historical interest. The medium is not so young anymore. And why deal with such old content that does not really match today's viewing habbits?

After I watched with my boys Peter Jackson's King Kong I tried to convince them to watch the original with me. No chance.

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On 24/03/2023 at 7:00 PM, GerateWohl said:

That is an interesting point. I mean, I grew up watching a lot of silent movie and short films like Harold Lloyd, The Little Rascals, Laurel and Hardy, Buster Keaton, Charles Chaplin or the old black and white western series like Zorro and stuff like that form the 30s.

So more or less being connected with film history and following the development of the medium for the last 50 years.

But I think, a lot of young people missed that connection and so not necesarily have such an historical interest. The medium is not so young anymore. And why deal with such old content that does not really match today's viewing habbits?

After I watched with my boys Peter Jackson's King Kong I tried to convince them to watch the original with me. No chance.

 

You open a whole other, interesting topic there, Geratewohl, that is probably better suited for another thread. But yeah, I get what you're saying. Personally, I've been interested in all of film since its inception, across all styles and epochs and trends. Silent films, French New Wave, Italian neoralism, German expressionism, Indian cinema, Hollywood blockbusters, you name it. Same for film music, really. While the scores I discovered in my formative years will always be ingrained in my spine, and as such very close to my heart, I still have an insatiable curiousity for everything that came before, and everything new that comes out. Maybe because I grew up in a more "curated" period, where there wasn't instant access to information and works like there is today. In the 80s, I was happy to see almost anything shown on our single Norwegian TV channel, even if it was, say, an old b/w Swedish film! So for younger people today, the tolerance level for "ancient" stuff may have waned somewhat with all the options out there, I don't know.

 

I will freely admit my pathway into old US television music came through John Williams' work. Otherwise, my knowledge of 50s and 60s US television music is rudimentary. But as I mentioned in the most recent episode, I did have some access in my early years. THE TIME TUNNEL was shown in syndication on Super Channel in the 80s, which we had access to. Old DR. WHO too (I think the Tom Baker years), or the PLANET OF THE APES series from the 70s. Some I liked, some I didn't. I think it's useful to have a "hook" of some kind that leads you into these things.

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It is probably a little bit like the discussions we frequently have about film music. If I like today's scores of Ludwig Görransson or Christophe Beck, why deal with scores from the silver or the golden age or even with the romantic and classical music from which that derived? 

 

By the way, I watched the time tunnel as Well in TV in the early 80s. I am Not sure, If I would today.

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By the way, I haven't even finished this series (the next episode, part 6, will be the last), and I'm already discovering new things and omissions. So I'll probably make a "Redux" version once the series is completed, with these omissions and additions put in -- even if I said I wouldn't.

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1 hour ago, Thor said:

By the way, I haven't even finished this series (the next episode, part 6, will be the last), and I'm already discovering new things and omissions. So I'll probably make a "Redux" version once the series is completed, with these omissions and additions put in -- even if I said I wouldn't.

 

Nice. I sugges to also collect the additions in its own bonus episode, so we won't need to listen to everything again.

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This is a wonderful project that has certainly taken a ton of time and effort. It really gives a fantastic insight into John Williams' TV scores of his early career years.

 

Finally, I have found time to listen to the first episode and am very impressed with your background knowledge, quality and presentation of the webcast. Great work:-)

 

My musical highlights are:

General Electric Theater-Journal of Hope (S09E02).
I really like the beautiful flute and string melodies. BTW, this episode featuring actor Leslie Nielsen was filmed in mid-August 1960 and
thus John Williams composed the music around the time when his youngest son Joseph was born.

 

M Squad
'The Discovery' is a marvelous jazzy track by John Williams where he plays the piano himself.

 

Wagon Train
The 3 tracks 'Jumpin Jack Rabbit' (from The Kittel Angel Story (S02E14) as well as 'Golden West' and 'Tomorrow' (from The Jenny Tannen Story (S02E38)) are absolute catchy tunes and fortunately were released on the music album for the series. In episode 'The Jenny Tannen Story' actress Ann Blyth sings the two original songs 'Golden West' and 'Tomorrow' with a lot of passion and it is good to know that she is still with us at the age of 94.

 

Another remarks:

Bachelor Father

Actually, the first episode scored by John Williams aired February 01, 1959 (not March 01, 1959). It was 'Bentley and The Kleptomaniac' (S02E11).

 

Playhouse 90-The Right Hand Man (S02E28)

This episode was a live one that aired in March, 1958. Like you, I hope it was recorded and will be unearthed one day.
In the same Playhouse 90 season, for example, the live television drama "A Town Has Turned To Dust" featuring a young William Shatner was broadcast and taped on June 19th, 1958 (S02E38). As this one is available on DVD I'm hopeful that a recording of 'The Right Hand Man' also exists!

 

Alright. I'm already looking forward to listening to the second episode very soon :-)

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16 minutes ago, Thor said:

Indeed. I actually rewatched that episode today, in an effort to create a suite of BACHELOR FATHER episode music (beyond the theme, which is all we play in the episode) that will also be part of the "redux" version (a little bit like I did with GILLIGAN'S ISLAND), and I noticed the erroneous date. Furthermore, I also watched a season 1 episode ("Bentley and the Talent Contest"), airing as early as January 5, 1958, which is credited to Williams. That was frustrating, because season 1 is generally considered to contain only library music, and Williams wasn't involved until season 2. It's probably because the YouTube video is from a syndicated version that used 'standardized' end credits posters that are not reflective of the actual music in the episode. But I've posted a query about it on FSM today, just in case Jeff Eldridge or others have any input.

 

 

'Bentley and the Talent Contest' (S01E09) is not credited to John Williams! Do you mean this video here? That is not 'Bentley and the Talent Contest' but 'Bentley, The Stage Mother' (S03E28) directed by Norman Abbott which aired April 07, 1960. John Williams scored this episode as all ones of season 3!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Junion said:

 

'Bentley and the Talent Contest' (S01E09) is not credited to John Williams! Do you mean this video here? That is not 'Bentley and the Talent Contest' but 'Bentley, The Stage Mother' (S03E28) directed by Norman Abbott which aired April 07, 1960. John Williams scored this episode as all ones of season 3!

 

Yes, that video as well as this one. Both credit Williams and both list them as S01E09, "Bentley and the Talent Contest". But reading the synopsis of the actual episode, they're both wrong, of course. I must learn not to trust YouTube uploaders! :)

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54 minutes ago, Thor said:

They will be edited versions of the same episodes, but I'll make posts here and elsewhere where I lay out the changes and additions (and the time codes), for re-listening convenience. The only bonus episode I hope to make eventually, is an episode dedicated solely to an episode-by-episode walkthrough of his CHECKMATE work.

 

You're so difficult.

 

;)

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My highlights from Part 3 after listening:

 

1. Ben Casey "A Little Fun to Match the Sorrow" -- a really wonderful, emotionally complex theme

2. Kraft Suspense Theater "Are There Any More Out There Like You?" -- that action cue is pretty damn AWESOME. I would LOVE to get a clean version of it some day.

3. Kraft Suspense Theater "One Step Down" -- another gorgeous emotionally complex string theme, reminding me of his Ben Casey score.

4. Kraft Suspense Theater "The Robrioz Ring" -- it was great to get this extended 7 minute suite and hear more development in one of these Williams TV scores.

Honorable mentions: "The Hunt" (doesn't sound at all Goldsmithian to me, and would really stand out in Planet of the Apes, but still good stuff!); "Four Into Zero" was also pretty fun.

 

 

And from Part 4:

 

1. Chrysler Theater's "White Eyes, Red Snow" -- GREAT stuff; would love to hear the full score in music-only form.

 

2. Inside the Movie Kingdom -- All four clips of that were really cool, with nice variety and Williams's voice shines through quite strongly. I'd love to check out the video itself someday.

 

My favorite thing that you played on the episode was honestly probably The Ghostbreaker main theme, but I've already known and loved that for many years thanks to FSM. I also do love both Lost in Space themes (but especially the second, which Netflix wisely adapted for use in their reboot).

Looking forward to hearing Part 5 next...

 

Yavar

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6 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

4. Kraft Suspense Theater "The Robrioz Ring" -- it was great to get this extended 7 minute suite and hear more development in one of these Williams TV scores.

 

Absolutely. It's one of those rare episodes where we're fortunate to have long sequences with no dialogue and only marginal sound effects.

 

 

6 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Honorable mentions: "The Hunt" (doesn't sound at all Goldsmithian to me, and would really stand out in Planet of the Apes, but still good stuff!); "Four Into Zero" was also pretty fun.

 

The bits slightly reminiscent of POTA are probably more noticeable in some of the hunt sequences not covered in the clips (due to them having too prominent sound effects). I do agree that those wild piano explorations, for example, are an avantgarde sound all on its own, and don't really have much in common with Goldsmith's score.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

That was a great listen!  I'd somehow missed the fact that the NBC Sunday Night Football music consisted of four different compositions, not just "Wide Receiver."  So I got to hear new(-to-me) John Williams music today!  Which has been true of each episode in this series, now that I think about it.  This has been a real goldmine!  Thanks, Thor, for doing it!

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Excited for Part 6, when I can sit down and give it proper attention. Great thumbnail too, it is somehow entertaining to me to see Jane Eyre next to Obi-Wan but there it is. 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

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