The most underrated and the most overrated Williams score

[GerateWohl 2,822]

This is just about personal preferences. What is in your opinion the most underrated score composed by John Williams? 

Concerning the underrated question, I think, there are some Williams scores, that don't get the praise they deserve, but my personal choice would be "The Fury". Even though I would as well his earlier comedy work count in. Penelope, Not With My Wife, You Don't are great musical treasures. And Stepmon is a candidate, too.

 

On the overrated side for me personally I see all three Harry Potter scores. I mean, they are great works, but I don't see that so far outstanding in Williams' work. In my view they get more attention than they deserve. For example, Witches of Eastwick, which I always understood as the musical predecessor of Harry Potter isn't helt in that high regard.

An exception might be PoA. That score might actually deserve its attention. But at least the first two are rather on one level with Home Alone.

[filmmusic 1,365]

I don't know about underrated, but I think the most overrated score here in this forum is The Lost World.

 

[publicist 4,636]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

Penelope, Not With My Wife, You Don't are great musical treasures. And Stepmon is a candidate, too.

 

If these are great musical treasures, i shudder at the thought of the failures! 

[Edmilson 4,925]

Under: The Patriot

 

Over: I dunno... maybe Hook? I like that score, but don't love it as much as many people here.

[Richard Penna 2,631]

How many posts or pages before this explodes in a raging argument?  

 

Raiders gets the most praise amongst the Indy scores, but outside of a small handful of set pieces - Map Room, Basket Game, I don't 'get' this score at all.

 

It strikes me that of JW's scores from the last decade or so, The Terminal doesn't seem to quite get the discussion that a lot of other scores get. It's got two fantastic themes and a really nice finale which JW's album kind of loses. I'll be delighted when MM gets round to expanding this.

[WilliamsStarShip2282 266]

Under rated there are a lot. Memoirs of a Geisha, Lost World (can't agree with the above), and all three HP scores are master pieces. Maybe because some scores get played endlessly people get sick of them, but I think everyone thought the HP soundtracks were some of his very finest works when they came out. I don't think under rated is good either, maybe more forgotten about. Like Accidental Tourist, Empire of the Sun, The Terminal,  Yes Giorgio (although the movie was trash), Seven Years in Tibet, and Angela's Ashes. What about Heartbeeps?

I don't really think there are over rated ones either, just ones that get played way too much. Hedwig's Theme specifically got to the point of being annoying so I didn't listen to anything HP oriented for a long time. However if I can say that there was one that got way too much attention it was Lincoln. With Malice Towards None I love dearly, a complete and unique masterpiece, including all its forms. But the rest of the score....eh. The concert suite was really nice, but the second movement was never recorded (I think I heard him play all three pieces from the suite once at the Pops, "Getting Out the Vote" is always left out. its very very good, a bit Coplandesque, but incredible). I also think The Duel from Tintin has been way over played. Great piece, but there are other tracks in there that are great that have literally never seen the light of day since the movie, which I feel was almost instantaneously forgotten about.
 

36 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Under: The Patriot

 

Over: I dunno... maybe Hook? I like that score, but don't love it as much as many people here.

The Patriot is never one I really got into, but I have a huge appreciation for the writing which is so incredibly masterful and fitting.

I feel the same way about Hook, although it has some really great moments, most of them were captured in some for in a concert suite or version.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

How many posts or pages before this explodes in a raging argument?  

 

Raiders gets the most praise amongst the Indy scores, but outside of a small handful of set pieces - Map Room, Basket Game, I don't 'get' this score at all.

 

It strikes me that of JW's scores from the last decade or so, The Terminal doesn't seem to quite get the discussion that a lot of other scores get. It's got two fantastic themes and a really nice finale which JW's album kind of loses. I'll be delighted when MM gets round to expanding this.

 

For the Indy scores, I always had the opposite feeling of everyone else. I think Temple of Doom is an absolutely incredible score from start to finish, and for me actually makes the other Indy scores look weak. Raiders is great, there's a ton of music in there when one of the themes gets thrown around. But even though Last Crusade had some great themes, there are really just a few cues in that one that are not just like "generic Williams action music". Its kind of a weird score for me, it has moments that are totally inspired and others which are just meh.

 

[Joni Wiljami 1,173]

The most overrated:The Lost World

The most underrated:The Book Thief

 

 

[Thor 5,946]

3 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

This is just about personal preferences. What is in your opinion the most underrated score composed by John Williams? 

Concerning the underrated question, I think, there are some Williams scores, that don't get the praise they deserve, but my personal choice would be "The Fury". Even though I would as well his earlier comedy work count in. Penelope, Not With My Wife, You Don't are great musical treasures. And Stepmon is a candidate, too.

 

Definitely. STEPMOM is gorgeous, don't know why it has such a bad rep around here (or maybe it was just Jurassic Shark). But yeah -- NOT WITH MY WIFE YOU DON'T would be my candidate. It vies with THE REIVERS for the best JW score of the 60s, and I include it in my top 10 Williams of all time. Super entertaining and diverse soundtrack album.

[filmmusic 1,365]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

and I include it in my top 10 Williams of all time.

Really? 

Hmmm.. I should take another listen then.

[GerateWohl 2,822]

1 hour ago, Joni Wiljami said:

The most underrated:The Book Thief

That's definitely underrated.

[Dr. Rick 940]

This will ruffle some feathers for sure, but for me most overrated is A.I.  It is a good score, yes, but “masterpiece” isn’t a word I would use to describe it.  
 

Most underrated is a harder choice to make as there could easily be half a dozen I could list, but I’ll go with Angela’s Ashes.  

[Richard Penna 2,631]

I never warmed to A.I. outside of The Mecha World and a few other cues. It's an extremely 'cold' score.

[publicist 4,636]

Extremely cold it certainly isn't (the appearances of the score's two quasi-main themes, the song and the Blue Fairy theme, take up a considerable amount of the score's running time and are among Williams' most beguiling). It's the contrast between the melodic and the distant is what makes it, though it's certainly a slog in complete form.

[Bellosh 1,921]

Based on this forum, I'll say:

 

Most overrated: Hook

 

Most underrated: Saving Private Ryan. I think it's a perfect score.

[Holko 8,205]

Haha perfect, I was just thinking SPR for overrated, in 2-3 attempts I found absolutely nothing in it to grab my interest.

[GerateWohl 2,822]

If I take this forum as a mesure and reflect the personal top ten that had been shared by many about a year ago the most overrated score in my eyes would probably be "The Accidential Tourist". I don't get, why so many here seem to be so crazy about it. It consists more or less of one theme, which I personally would rate in the lowest third of Williams' themes.

[Bounty95 462]

Most overrated: Close Encounters 

The finale is great, but that alone doesn't make it one of JW's best scores. Maybe I'm not intellectual enough to enjoy the dissonant parts. 

 

Most underrated: The Patriot 

I love this score, it's much more than JW on autopilot. I can't wait for an eventual expansion. 

 

 

[Thor 5,946]

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

I never warmed to A.I. outside of The Mecha World and a few other cues. It's an extremely 'cold' score.

That’s fine if you feel that way. For me, it’s the greatest score since the millennium turnover. But underrated it’s not. It’s thankfully very well received.

[Disco Stu 15,475]

Speaking of this forum, not the wider enthusiast or general population

 

Overrated: The Rise of Skywalker

 

Underrated: The Reivers

 

Should note: For me, overrated does not mean "secretly bad."  Just... overrated!

[GerateWohl 2,822]

34 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Overrated: The Rise of Skywalker

 

I wasn't aware, that this score is rated high around here.

[filmmusic 1,365]

5 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

I wasn't aware, that this score is rated high around here.

Neither did I.

[Bounty95 462]

 

7 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

I wasn't aware, that this score is rated high around here.

 

Well, I love it and I'm sure my appreciation will increase even more when we will be able to hear the full thing one day. There's some incredible unreleased music in the film. 

[Loert 2,322]

6 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

I think Temple of Doom is an absolutely incredible score from start to finish, and for me actually makes the other Indy scores look weak. Raiders is great[...]

 

I half-agree; ToD is my favourite JW score, but I would say that Raiders is a more...intricate? fine-tuned? score. And I don't just mean that with regards to the "set pieces" like Map Room and Basket Game. In the Jungle and Uncovering the Ark are some of the most atmospheric tracks I've heard from JW. Nevertheless, ToD takes the cake for me simply because it's so much fun to listen to from start to finish, there's so much variety, and it feels like every track has something special about it.

 

---

 

Anyway, to answer the original question (and keep in mind that I haven't listened to every JW score out there):

 

Overrated: E.T.

Underrated: 1941

 

E.T. is certainly an excellent score, but for me JW wears the heart on his sleeve too much, particularly in the ending sequence. It also seems that whenever someone praises E.T., they don't just praise it but they seem to have to drool all over it like it was the best thing since the invention of the wheel. I guess I don't see what they're seeing.

 

As for 1941, out of all of JW's marches it's his best.

[Disco Stu 15,475]

Just now, Loert said:

they seem to have to drool all over it like it was the best thing since the invention of the wheel

An accurate description of my reaction to the finale  

[GerateWohl 2,822]

31 minutes ago, Bounty95 said:

Well, I love it and I'm sure my appreciation will increase even more when we will be able to hear the full thing one day. There's some incredible unreleased music in the film. 

Maybe it is an indication for a score being overrated If the appreciation is to a big degree on unreleased or even unused music, which applies especially to Hook.

[Bounty95 462]

Nah, this is due to JW making baffling choices concerning what to include on his OSTs. If he leaves major highlights from a film score off the album, it doesn't make the score itself any worse. 

[Jay 31,998]

9 hours ago, filmmusic said:

I think the most overrated score here in this forum is The Lost World.

 

That's literally one of my absolute top favorite John Williams scores!

 

4 hours ago, Dr. Rick said:

most overrated is A.I.  It is a good score, yes, but “masterpiece” isn’t a word I would use to describe it.  

 

Huh.  "Masterpiece" is literally the first word that comes to mind for me to describe it!

[Dr. Rick 940]

5 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Huh.  "Masterpiece" is literally the first word that comes to mind for me to describe it!

 
 

Like I said… ruffle some feathers.  😂 

 

The score has never resonated with me and that’s OK, everyone is different.  

[Jay 31,998]

Have you tried the expanded Matessino program, or are you solely judging it based on the OST program?

[Dr. Rick 940]

I have the expanded set, never had the OST

[Jay 31,998]

Yea, can't blame you for not trying!

[Dr. Rick 940]

I do not dislike the score at all, it’s very good actually, but it doesn’t get a lot of playtime in my CD player 😂  Plus it has that track with Josh Groban singing 🤮 

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Rick said:

t doesn’t get a lot of playtime in my CD player 😂 

Most scores don't these days lol

[Edmilson 4,925]

43 minutes ago, Jay said:

That's literally one of my absolute top favorite John Williams scores!

 

The Lost World is amazing. Visitor in San Diego might be my favorite John Williams action track ever. The last two minutes are so intense and crazy, I love it!

[Jay 31,998]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Rick said:

Plus it has that track with Josh Groban singing 🤮 

 

That's not part of Matessino's expanded presentation, that's a random bonus track on disc 3

[Datameister 1,687]

Put me in the A.I. camp for overrated. Underrated? The actual score to Jaws (as opposed to the OST recordings). I've never understood complaints that it doesn't hold up as a listening experience outside the film.

 

Actually, even more overrated than A.I. is the E.T. OST. Every second of music in it is glorious, but it's a terrible program, in my opinion. It needs a little more breathing room before you get to "E.T.'s Halloween," and both "Flying" and "Over the Moon" are poorly placed. "Flying" would have worked better as the first or last track, and "Over the Moon" would have worked better sometime before "E.T.'s Halloween."

[Jay 31,998]

I think the ET OST program is overrated to.  So many people here call it "perfect", or "a perfect distillation of the score", but it's not!  5 of the 8 tracks focus on the Flying Theme, while the tender ET & Me theme is very underpresented, as is the Keyes theme.

[Ian Stouffer 10]

Underrated is Jaws 2, a score that expands on concepts from the first Jaws and has many incredible pieces.

[Disco Stu 15,475]

25 minutes ago, Jay said:

I think the ET OST program is overrated to.  So many people here call it "perfect", or "a perfect distillation of the score", but it's not!  5 of the 8 tracks focus on the Flying Theme, while the tender ET & Me theme is very underpresented, as is the Keyes theme.

 

I wouldn’t call it a perfect distillation of the score, but it is a great….. listening… expe *muffled noise of being strangled*

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

It has most of the good stuff.

[WilliamsStarShip2282 266]

4 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I wasn't aware, that this score is rated high around here.

 

It got brought up  A LOT, especially with people wanting a concert quite out of it. I think its the best of the three new films, but still not really memorable.

5 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Speaking of this forum, not the wider enthusiast or general population

 

Overrated: The Rise of Skywalker

 

Underrated: The Reivers

 

Should note: For me, overrated does not mean "secretly bad."  Just... overrated!

I feel like thats another score that gets forgotten a lot too but is a real gem.

 

4 hours ago, Loert said:

 

I half-agree; ToD is my favourite JW score, but I would say that Raiders is a more...intricate? fine-tuned? score. And I don't just mean that with regards to the "set pieces" like Map Room and Basket Game. In the Jungle and Uncovering the Ark are some of the most atmospheric tracks I've heard from JW. Nevertheless, ToD takes the cake for me simply because it's so much fun to listen to from start to finish, there's so much variety, and it feels like every track has something special about it.

 

---

 

Anyway, to answer the original question (and keep in mind that I haven't listened to every JW score out there):

 

Overrated: E.T.

Underrated: 1941

 

E.T. is certainly an excellent score, but for me JW wears the heart on his sleeve too much, particularly in the ending sequence. It also seems that whenever someone praises E.T., they don't just praise it but they seem to have to drool all over it like it was the best thing since the invention of the wheel. I guess I don't see what they're seeing.

 

As for 1941, out of all of JW's marches it's his best.

I think as these scores age opinions and memories change. Or maybe its just age groups. When I was growing up in the 90's, and I think Williams even mentioned it somewhere, the 1941 march was basically memorized by the Pops they played it all the time and was a huge crowd favorite even if nobody remembered the film.

 

And YES for the Indy stuff, totally correct.

 

Also ET, a very fine score I can't see one spot in the score that I don't love, but like you mentioned the finale, I personally think its the only time where it doesn't really work with the film, and it actually makes the movie look inferior, which wasn't hard. I think nowadays most people don't care for ET, but when it came out it was absolutely huge. I'll never understand why, but it was.

3 hours ago, Bounty95 said:

Nah, this is due to JW making baffling choices concerning what to include on his OSTs. If he leaves major highlights from a film score off the album, it doesn't make the score itself any worse. 

I have always wondered if he chooses things based on what he likes, what he thinks its the most liked by the audience, or both. Because in almost all of the original releases of the OST's, there are always cues that are incredibly and left out, or like...cut up so the good part is actually cut out.

[Tom 3,692]

Underrated: Tintin, and an honorable mention to The Mission.

Overrated: Not sure.  Lost in Space main theme?  

[Andy 2,526]

Overrated: The Rievers (apologies, Disco Stu) 

 

I think there are stronger scores from that era where Johnny became John.
 

Underrated:

Heartbeeps

Specifically the love theme.  Everyone seems to gravitate to Crimebuster, but the love theme is almost a prototype of E.T. And Me. 
 

Underrated:

Jane Eyre

The writing here predates Prisoner of Azkaban by 3 decades, and yet it feels like a Window to the Past and other Potter-esque mystery motifs.  This, for me, is John’s first Great score. 

[Edmilson 4,925]

Other underrated scores:

• The Cowboys (my favorite collaboration with Rydell);
• Born on the Fourth of July (one of Williams' strongest drama scores - and where the heck is the expansion? );
• Nixon (The Turbulent Years is a great cue);
• Sleepers (one of Wiliams' darkest scores for what is probably his darkest movie);

[artguy360 1,723]

I think Jane Eyre is underappreciated simply because it is a less popular film. JW fans who take the time to listen to the score seem to rate it highly, but it's just not as popular as his other great scores for more popular films.

[Holko 8,205]

5 hours ago, Datameister said:

Underrated? The actual score to Jaws (as opposed to the OST recordings). I've never understood complaints that it doesn't hold up as a listening experience outside the film.

I think it's far better than the OST! Even recording and performancewise in a lot of places.

1 hour ago, artguy360 said:

I think Jane Eyre is underappreciated simply because it is a less popular film. JW fans who take the time to listen to the score seem to rate it highly, but it's just not as popular as his other great scores for more popular films.

Also it's OST only and OOP. I'd pick it up instantly if it got a reissue but waiting with it until then.

[Datameister 1,687]

1 hour ago, Holko said:

I think it's far better than the OST! Even recording and performancewise in a lot of places.

 

Yeah, I like the Jaws OST a lot, but I listen to the score more often. (Actually, my current preference is a playlist based on the full score, but swapping in a few of the OST's significantly expanded tracks.)

[Holko 8,205]

I even prefer the shorter Montage! With some bits like cues in The Fury I feel like the longer album versions are fuller compositions, but something like Montage I think is perfect as is and Promenade feels artificially dragged out to me.

[Joni Wiljami 1,173]

4 hours ago, Andy said:

Overrated: The Rievers (apologies, Disco Stu) 

 

I think there are stronger scores from that era where Johnny became John.
 

 

 

 

What?

I think The Reivers is one of the most brilliant score from that era by any composer and definitely one of the best by JW 

[GerateWohl 2,822]

4 hours ago, Andy said:

Underrated:

Jane Eyre

As this score appears in almost every John Williams fan's top 10 list of his scores, I don't think, that it's underrated.

But the oop point is valid. This would be a perfect candidate for a re-recording. Someone should talk with William Stromberg about this.