The End of The Superman March As We Know It

[Arpy 4,145]

Divert your attention to this truly terrifying piece, so foul it must've come from no place other than the depths of the lowest circle of hell.

 

https://www.cbr.com/dcu-move-away-john-williams-superman-theme/

 

In all honesty, I don't find the idea detestable, because Superman as a character has changed and so much so in the Man of Steel that to attach Williams' theme betrays the character and the composition.

[Archive Collection 214]

Williams' Superman score is one of my favourites, but I agree with the sentiment of the article - however poorly articulated it may be.

 

The JW Superman march does not fit the tone of Cavill's Superman that has been established over the last 9 years. Whereas other characters (Batman, Spider-Man, more) have received many new themes with each incarnation, Superman always seems to come back to Williams' march: a great piece of music in its own right, and perfect for Donner's/Reeve's Superman, but not appropriate for the Snyder/Cavill iteration. It only serves a nostalgic purpose when it's used in new films, and diminishes these films' ability to stand on their own, without a musical crutch/'hail Mary'.

 

I also agree that the best option is to continue developing Zimmer's score and thematic material. I understand that people dislike Zimmer's orchestral quasi-heavy-metal/percussive sound, but I think he and his team, especially Steve Mazzaro, have proven that they can produce a contemporary superhero score that is both traditionally orchestral and modern, in 'Wonder Woman 1984'. The way he developed his WW material from Batman v. Superman was very impressive and refreshing, and I'd love to hear him do the same for MoS2, especially if this new film will be as joyful and hopeful as Cavill has expressed.

 

I'm not in love with the Snyder/Cavill Superman, but I certainly wouldn't dismiss it simply because it's a departure from comic-book portrayals of the character. Superman is a modern myth, and deserves a diverse range of interpretations. I am interested to see how the WB/DCU team continue to develop this new version of the character.

 

I also don't want to join the Zimmer-hate pile on. From a compositional perspective, his style is certainly more 'minimalist' than Williams' and doesn't rely as heavily on melodic themes. But I don't agree with those who dismiss his work, simply because it doesn't use a Wagnerian motivic form - there's more than one way to compose for a film. I think Zimmer's work on MoS was interesting, particularly the sonic world he created to reflect the alien/sci-fi (synths and electronics), country/Americana (pedal steel guitars) and super-heroic elements (triumphant brass) of the Superman myth.

 

Zimmer is a highly competent and talented composer when he is given the right project, and I hope MoS2 provides an opportunity for him to return to Superman and create an incredibly joyous new score for such an iconic character. Let's allow Williams' score to live on, without having to play it every time Superman appears on screen!

[GerateWohl 4,350]

59 minutes ago, Arpy said:

In all honesty, I don't find the idea detestable, because Superman as a character has changed and so much so in the Man of Steel that to attach Williams' theme betrays the character and the composition.

I am not sure. Use you imagination. I think, in an alternative universe, where by accident John Williams composed what we know today as the Superman March as main title for Star Wars and what is Mail Title for Star Wars in our universe as the Superman March everybody in that universe will claim, that each composition is so fitting to its subject and they couldn't imagine any other music for it. I can think of many variant. Zimmer could have used in parts the Krypton music for Man of Steel. Could have worked. But it would have been completely unnecessary. Man of Steel is completely unrelated to the old Superman. No need for quoting old material in this case.

And I would be waking up screaming from dreaming of what Zimmer would have done with Williams music.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,512]

JW's SUPERMAN theme, is JW's SUPERMAN theme, and Zimmer's MAN OF STEEL theme, is Zimmer's MAN OF STEEL theme.

Both have their supporters and adherents, but I bloody well know which theme will still be playing in concert halls, in thirty years' time.

[Richard Penna 3,680]

It depends on the franchise and the direction in which it's gone. Jurassic still uses JW's themes in places, Potter used Hedwig's theme as it had become the identity of the series. In both cases, we're going back at most to the early 90s, not the late 70s when the style of scoring had a larger gap.

 

And of course JW himself largely ditched his thematic base for TLW and PoA when the changing tone of the films asked for something different.

 

No outrage (faux or otherwise) is needed here.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,512]

 

 

 

[rough cut 1,714]

As much as I want JW’s theme to be as constant a part of the franchise as the S-symbol on Superman’s chest - even as actors and directors are bound to change through the years - I do realize that all things change.

 

JW’s theme for Superman wasn’t the first, and nor should it be the last. I’m not a fan of Zimmer’s theme for The Man Of Steel, but that isn’t to say that I wouldn’t mind having another composer taking a stab at it.

 

The wonderful soundtrack to Reeve’s amazing performance back in 1978, will always be there, is not going anywhere, and any fan of Superman or music is able to listen to it at anytime, thanks to the wonderful restoration releases we’ve gotten recently.

[Goldfinger 59]

Cavil only came back to the role when it was agreed that his vision for the character would be recognized, which he has described as "joyful". I think that Cavil wants a more traditional representation of the character going forward, and is not happy with the direction that Snyder took the character after Man of Steel. In his most recent appearance as the character he's accompanied by the Williams' theme and it was likely on his request, as he is a big geek and fan of that kind of stuff.

 

While I wouldn't be opposed to going a different direction, I have a strong feeling that they're going to go full force with the classic theme in the next film, especially to differentiate from how the Cavil character has been represented in the past.

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

For the the williams theme should be the only superman theme for ever…so i dont mind if cavills version ends using the theme. 
 

it was great to see (listen) to superman returns of the cinema, even if the film was no so great

[Faleel 5,345]

Without a classic sound to go with the classic themes, what's the point anyways?

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I'm more indifferent to reinterpretations of the sound since I never really considered Superman to be in the same league as other John Williams "legacy franchises".  Superhero movies also traditionally have new themes for new interpretations of characters.

 

He did one movie and left for the sequels, which mostly just rehashed the first score.  So the complaint that it's "stuck in the 70s" is fair, as the franchise never evolved from the first score the way SW, IJ, or HP did (even had JW done them, the Superman sequels just didn't offer much in terms of scope, drama, or world building)

 

And yeah, he technically worked on Quest for Peace but that was like basic melodies written on a piece of toilet paper

 

[Jay 37,339]

10 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

And yeah, he technically worked on Quest for Peace but that was like basic melodies written on a piece of toilet paper

 

What

[crocodile 8,000]

For me, it is mostly a non-issue. Yeah, from the perspective of traditional film music fan this sort of article might seem upsetting. But rest assured Williams' legacy is safe and secure and his theme will be always associated with the character in one way or another. There are many films and series that don't use it and it's all good. I am more than happy for filmmakers and composers to find new ways to portray these characters. That is the fun of art. I find Zimmer's take really interesting actually because it evokes the characters through the two paternal figures - there's the New Age Krypton material that morphs into this nostalgic Midwest type of a small town Americana. It is not the marching band type this time, more of a simple peaceful life thing. Say what you want about the composition, but this approach is as valid as any. It doesn't negate Williams' take, just looks at the character from an entirely different angle. That's fine by me.

 

Karol

 

 

[GerateWohl 4,350]

Williams' score for Superman is better than the movie deserves. But apart from Williams' march the musical signature is quite simple. Something as heroic as can be. A march, a fanfare with heroic brass and illumunating strings and strong confident percussion. In that uplifting category anything could be written to support Superman. It is for a composer probably the least challenging task to write music for Superman. Williams themes are the only of these that made it into the concert hall. But his Superman march is for me one of his lesser interesting pieces.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

47 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

What

The sketches of the themes were pretty bare bone if I remember correctly.  

[mstrox 6,650]

I’d rather they leave Williams’ themes alone and leave Zimmer’s themes in the trash - but if they have to reuse one……

[Edmilson 7,426]

I disliked Zimmer's Man of Steel score because of its insufferable combo of constant drumming (WTH a score needs 13 big name drummers?) and HORN OF DOOM for the action cues. But it really does have some nice ideas in it.

 

Either way, I'd rather the movie to be scored by a new composer. A John Powell Superman score would be a dream come true 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Any composer that works on the sequel is going to get trashed by Snyder fans so it's not really worth the drama.  (Unless they just reuse the Man of Steel themes)

[JoeinAR 1,949]

The Hans Zimmer Superman music is pure shit absolute and total shit. 

It is not comparable to John Williams music in any way shape or form. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I do think the Snyder fans kind of need to accept that they're never going to get the cinematic universe they wanted.  

 

It just doesn't make sense for WB to keep catering to such a small (though vocal) fanbase when the movies weren't successful 

[1977 1,743]

I'd love it if a fantastic composer composed a brand new Superman theme for an incredible new Superman film featuring a wonderful new actor portraying the character.

 

Realistically I feel the chances of any of this happening are virtually non-existent.

 

Reeve/Donner/Williams Superman will likely never be bettered.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,512]

3 minutes ago, JTWfan77 said:

Reeve/Donner/Williams Superman will likely never be bettered.

Sorted 

[publicist 4,643]

Probably 90% of this board just don't get that they are part of the problem, not the solution. Pitching more Superman movies, yeah, the silver lining for cinema. Just sayin...

[Archive Collection 214]

There are rumours that Spielberg will be involved in MoS2 (probably won’t happen). But just imagine if he directed it and got John Williams to score it…..!!!

[DarthDementous 1,059]

That author is not going to get their wish, DC are aware what is more iconic.

 

Spoiler

In the Black Adam after credits scene we hear the Williams theme before we see Superman proper

 

[mstrox 6,650]

Should have played an epic orchestral version of Yakety Sax