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Amistad Expanded Release - MUSIC Discussion


Disco Stu

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14 hours ago, pete said:

Dry Your Tears - for the musicologists amongst us: is there anything harmonically and melodically about the music that suggests African music/culture?

 

It's just Williams writing a celebratory anthem and then embellishing it with indigenous colours. 'Prisoner's Song' is the only cue that sounds like african music.

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Meeting of the Minds, Learning to Count, Tale of the Lion’s Tooth, Prisoners’ Song, Cinque’s Legal Mind? Not to mention many more cues sprinkled with African texture throughout the score.

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He was talking about original african music, not music using ethnic instruments sounding vaguely exotic. Zimmer's Power of One would be a good example of real african music being used front and center.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Henry Sítrónu said:

Why is „Cinqué’s Memories Of Home“ not part of the main program but additional music?

 

It's essentially a concert arrangement of the memories of home theme, though paperwork indicated it's a revised version of "Cinque's Legal Mind". It does not appear anywhere in the film - the film uses the original version of "Cinque's Legal Mind" 

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27 minutes ago, publicist said:

He was talking about original african music, not music using ethnic instruments sounding vaguely exotic.

 

 

So was I. Vaguely exotic? Really?

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9 minutes ago, Jay said:

It's essentially a concert arrangement of the memories of home theme, though paperwork indicated it's a revised version of "Cinque's Legal Mind". It does not appear anywhere in the film - that film uses the original version of "Cinque's Legal Mind" 

 

This idea i consider a learning theme, it sounds like Cinque's mind adapting and assimilating the new culture he's forced into with some interest. It has that nice tranquility to it.

 

5 minutes ago, JohnnyD said:

So was I. Vaguely exotic? Really?

 

Are you familiar with african music? (that's of course a much bigger canvas, but Sierra Leone would be something like that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Sierra_Leone)

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52 minutes ago, Jay said:

It's essentially a concert arrangement of the memories of home theme, though paperwork indicated it's a revised version of "Cinque's Legal Mind". It does not appear anywhere in the film - the film uses the original version of "Cinque's Legal Mind" 

Thanks Jay, very interesting.

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1 hour ago, publicist said:

 

This idea i consider a learning theme, it sounds like Cinque's mind adapting and assimilating the new culture he's forced into with some interest. It has that nice tranquility to it.

 

Ooh yes, "tranquil" is a good way to describe it

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2 hours ago, publicist said:

 

Are you familiar with african music? (that's of course a much bigger canvas, but Sierra Leone would be something like that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Sierra_Leone)


I’ve listened to some. No harm; I was just taken aback when you said, “vaguely.”

 

You can admit that the Maestro skillfully utilizes African texture peppered as a flavor throughout the score and balances that with Americana and traditional orchestra.

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Oops, I just meant what gives the piece the African flavor - suggested of Africa. I knew the percussion and the language helped serve that purpose. I was just curious if there was anything in the music harmonically or melodically that also served that same purpose. I have the other John Williams - the real John Williams, the guitar player - his album of tradiational African music, and that sounds nothing like Dry Your Tears, Africa. Of course Africa is a huge continent with zillions of cultures, so the term African music is really as useful as Chinese food. 

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15 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

So is this culture appropiation? Should this score and williams be cancelled? 
 

🤔


No, and no. I know you’re joking, but still.

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10 minutes ago, pete said:

I have the other John Williams - the real John Williams, the guitar player - his album of tradiational African music, and that sounds nothing like Dry Your Tears, Africa.


Out of curiosity, what did you mean by “the real John Williams”?

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2 hours ago, WampaRat said:

 

 

Just watching this scene of Adam’s Address and Adam’s Summation. It’s a scene with an amazing monologue by the brilliant Sir Anthony Hopkins. It’s also a scene that, without Williams score, could go on a tad too long. Perhaps even a bit awkward despite how wonderfully acted it is. But the music can’t be too prominent as to overshadow what’s being said. Neither can it be so subdued as to fail to underscore how important the scene is. It’s such a tricky tightrope that Williams is walking here. Moments ebb and flow, occasionally quoting his “Long Road To Justice” theme or Cinques theme during the Summation portion of the scene. But I’m realizing how impressive his non-thematic moments are in this scene. It never feels like he’s just marketing time until he can come back in with a big thematic statement. He is so damn good at giving each measure of music a specific reason to be there. To uplift here, reflect there, warn here, council there.  Listen to how Williams shifts the mood with the eerie synths as Adam’s recounts all the Biblical “justifications” for slavery. Does it right under our nose when he could have just continued on doing some nice horn solos. It’s this quilt work of emotions that Williams is so skilled at. He can pull you through so many specific feelings in just a few measures. Lesser composers would be tempted to score the scene as “inspirational” (or lesser directors ask for one blanket emotion).  Sorry for the appreciation ramble. It’s a 10 minute dialogue heavy finale. And Williams is able to play us all like a harp!


I remember recording the audio of this entire scene just to listen to the entire music. Now, it is released outside the film in the best sound quality ever. Now, I can enjoy both the film and the music by itself. What a gift.

 

On a side note, not only should the Maestro have won his Academy Award nomination; Sir Anthony Hopkins should have won his nomination for Best Supporting Actor.

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On 7/12/2022 at 3:55 PM, A. A. Ron said:

This new album flows really well, even in the alternates section. I really love how in its new chronological presentation the score starts out darker and saves Dry Your Tears as a triumphant finale.

 

Also, I don't know if anyone will find it useful, but I made a quick dirty spreadsheet comparing the new album and the OST. I don't have my copy yet to review the liner notes, but I believe this is pretty accurate.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LXgbJAb3MlPu721vmRaf7Jm5C2ucgJvO1vKm5q4sgfY/edit?usp=sharing

 

Finally got my copy and I've updated the spreadsheet to reflect the information in the liner notes.

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48 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

 

Finally got my copy and I've updated the spreadsheet to reflect the information in the liner notes.

 

Really appreciate that. I'm still waiting to hear the expanded, but is this right? 

Cinque's Theme (Solo Flute) Track 2-12 Track 1
(START-0:45)

 

The OST starts with solo voice?

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5 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Yeah it was a joke. But i wonder if somewhere in the future some illuminated will say it… 😕


Lack there of (illuminated) is more accurate.

 

Back to the topic, all these years I thought of Cinqué’s Memories of Home as a concert arrangement of that theme, which it essentially is; I never knew it was a revised version of Cinqué’s Legal Mind until now. It works so well as a concert arrangement.

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8 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Yeah it was a joke. But i wonder if somewhere in the future some illuminated will say it… 😕

 

It's exactly what happened on a german Facebook soundtrack group recently: Goldsmith's Ghost and The Darkness was labeled 'racist' by a guy and lo and behold, the whole cultural appropriation thing was burning. It was a hoot, but i think it's exactly right that a composer in the 2020's will be held to another standard and that's also why so many scores for movies and tv shows sound like undigested source music.

 

11 hours ago, JohnnyD said:

You can admit that the Maestro skillfully utilizes African texture peppered as a flavor throughout the score and balances that with Americana and traditional orchestra.

 

See above, in 1997 that was exactly what you did: skilfully (more or less, depending on the guy who wrote it) weaving ethnic colours in when appropriate (also note how Williams used the low male chorus from 'Amistad' for a completely different locale in 'Seven Years in Tibet'). But it wasn't found to be necessary that a dramatic score would have to function as authentic testament to a local region. So that's why the original poster's question if the main theme was 'real' african music would have to be answered 'no', from a musicologists's pov, certainly not.

 

But if i had to choose between today's approach of limiting the narrative push in favour of authentic source music and the old way of the film composer making the idiom his own and integrating it in his very own narrative there's no contest: the old way, please.

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8 hours ago, publicist said:
16 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

 

 

It's exactly what happened on a german Facebook soundtrack group recently: Goldsmith's Ghost and The Darkness was labeled 'racist' by a guy and lo and behold, the whole cultural appropriation thing was burning. It was a hoot, but i think it's exactly right that a composer in the 2020's will be held to another standard and that's also why so many scores for movies and tv shows sound like undigested source music.

Dang. By that same logic it’s a slippery slope. Theres so many other fantastic scores that could potentially get canceled just because they were composed by white guys who combined non-western European ethnic colors with a traditional symphony orchestra. 

 

Lawrence of Arabia

The Mask of Zorro

Memoirs of a Geisha

Dances With Wolves

Under Fire

 

That would be so sad. 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, pete said:

 

Really appreciate that. I'm still waiting to hear the expanded, but is this right? 

Cinque's Theme (Solo Flute) Track 2-12 Track 1
(START-0:45)

 

The OST starts with solo voice?


You’re right, that’s a mistake. OST Track 1 opens with one of Pamela Dillard’s vocal takes of Cinque’s theme as heard in the Introduction and its alternate. 

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If anyone was gonna get canceled for "cultural appropriation" in movie scores (which I'm not sure if it's the right term to use here), I kind of would argue it'd be Hans Zimmer, since anyone else would require people to actively listen to film music like we do. With how upfront he is about using a lot of foreign elements on key projects, he's advertising himself in a way I wouldn't think other composers have in the matter. Besides, he already has a track record of questionable behavior on social media (plus a pretty unfortunate allegation if true), so easy fuel there.

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I listened to the complete score so far (not the alternates yet), and I find it a nice release but the unreleased music mostly felt like a continuation of the material we had before and I even had trouble discerning what the unreleased music was .  For me there was no OMG I can't believe they left that off the OST moment (like  Bringing them Back from Empire of the Sun for example), which is very rare.

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38 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

Just "cancelling" them instead of thoroughly reflecting on their missteps, while also highlighting their merits, has more of an angry medieval mob than a refined and differentiated contemporary society.

Twitter has made mankind regress to "angry medieval mob" state of mind anyway. It's the same behavior but now using a smartphone and gifs instead of forks.

 

Anyway, let's get back to Amistad before Jay "cancels" this discussion, lol. I can't listen to Cinque's Theme without remembering Revenge of the Sith.

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15 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Now that Amistad and Saving Private Ryan are both expanded, I think we can make a poll: which one of the two contains the best John Williams Americana writing?

That’s a toughy. But between the two you mentioned…

 I think I would listen to “Long Road To Justice” before I would listen to anything from SPR. It’s a bit lighter. Just really pleasing slice of Americana. I adore the little trumpet phrase at the end that calls back to the “Dry Your Tears..” Could just be my recency bias.

 

If you were to pit Lincoln against the Americana portions of Amistad…that might be tougher. I love “Freedom’s Call” a lot.

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2 hours ago, Edmilson said:

When we have The Patriot expanded, we'll be able to compare the three of them and see what was the best Americana score of the late 90s :lovethis:

The Patriot has a distinct JW Americana sound because of the fife and drum integration and other period touches. 

 

Amistad, JFK, SPR, parts of Nixon, and Lincoln are much more general JW Americana to me. Out of those, I think Lincoln takes the cake.

 

Edit: wait, what's the connection between Cinque's Theme and Revenge of the Sith?

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13 hours ago, King Mark said:

I listened to the complete score so far (not the alternates yet), and I find it a nice release but the unreleased music mostly felt like a continuation of the material we had before and I even had trouble discerning what the unreleased music was .  For me there was no OMG I can't believe they left that off the OST moment (like  Bringing them Back from Empire of the Sun for example), which is very rare.

African Violet is very nice. Wouldn't want to miss that. But yes, maybe not a highlight.

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20 hours ago, King Mark said:

I listened to the complete score so far (not the alternates yet), and I find it a nice release but the unreleased music mostly felt like a continuation of the material we had before and I even had trouble discerning what the unreleased music was .  For me there was no OMG I can't believe they left that off the OST moment (like  Bringing them Back from Empire of the Sun for example), which is very rare.


Um… The Verdict? Along with, well, EVERYTHING ELSE.

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13 hours ago, Edmilson said:

When we have The Patriot expanded, we'll be able to compare the three of them and see what was the best Americana score of the late 90s :lovethis:

 

Perfect Storm 

 

8 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

African Violet is very nice. Wouldn't want to miss that. But yes, maybe not a highlight.

 

The woodwind work is very nice, but the problem with Williams musically embalming the majority of Hopkins waxwork performance is that it feels like you visit a 5-story National Museum of American History exhibition and there's a neverending loop of that contemplative americana stuff. it's pleasant but nothing stands really out and after a while, you just don't notice it anymore.

 

There is a whole lot of more interesting material now, the score ain't no masterpiece or anything of that sort, but it afforded Williams a rare opportunity to explore a meeting of different musical cultures and since he had to create so much music for it, there's just a lot to choose from.

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14 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Now that Amistad and Saving Private Ryan are both expanded, I think we can make a poll: which one of the two contains the best John Williams Americana writing?

What is the real definition of "Americana" by the way? I think the term is often used in a wrong way.

 

Wiki says "Americana, as defined by the Americana Music Association (AMA), is "contemporary music that incorporates elements of various American roots music styles, including country, roots-rock, folk, bluegrass, R&B and blues, resulting in a distinctive roots-oriented sound that lives in a world apart from the pure forms of the genres upon which it may draw. While acoustic instruments are often present and vital, Americana also often uses a full electric band."

 

I don't hear that in Private Ryan tbh.

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I tried to listen through the release completely from beginning to end three Times, but didn't manage to keep up attention. 

I think, I better explore this from time to time with batches of three pieces. Not more.

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3 hours ago, Edmilson said:

It's a little similar to Battle of the Heroes:

 

 

 

 

That was the first thing I noticed when I listened to the OST prior to buying the expansion. It's always fascinating how much further JW can take similar ideas on different projects compared to other composers, so I'd be very hard pressed to consider any of it self-plagiarism (partly because I would probably be crucified for suggesting it). It's just a testament to the man's talent that he can make things feel so unique every time.

 

As for the score itself, predictably (for me), I didn't fully get it on my first listen (which likely is caused by me being unable to get it through in one go). It was enough for me to further understand why fans generally dislike Williams's OSTs, as there's a much more clear cut narrative when put in C&C order. Current favorite cue is Adams' Address To The Court, if mainly because it reminded me a bit of the farm music from Superman. Definitely would be happy to give this another spin soon.

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4 hours ago, publicist said:

There is a whole lot of more interesting material now, the score ain't no masterpiece or anything of that sort, but it afforded Williams a rare opportunity to explore a meeting of different musical cultures and since he had to create so much music for it, there's just a lot to choose from.

I already see my future self compiling an African-only playlist after having listened to the whole program a few times that omits all of the Americana.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Adams' Adress the Court and Adams' Summation were completely absent from the OST, right? Which means this is the first time we can hear these cues outside the movie, correct? 

 

If so, then these are two of the best John Williams completely-unreleased-until-now cues ever. Two astounding discoveries. 

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1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Adams' Adress the Court and Adams' Summation were completely absent from the OST, right?


No, they’re both partially included in track 12 of the OST, but edited down, particularly in the case of the Adams’ Address To The Court cue, which was trimmed from over 7 minutes to about 1:30.

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17 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:

No, they’re both partially included in track 12 of the OST, but edited down, particularly in the case of the Adams’ Address To The Court cue, which was trimmed from over 7 minutes to about 1:30.

So it was mostly unreleased until today. Still, these are two essential cues for the movie. Had they been in their entirety on the original OST, they'd be known today as classic fan-favorite John Williams cues.

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