Amistad Expanded Release - MUSIC Discussion

[Chewy 2,377]

I managed to isolate the choral overlay that was used in the "The Capture (Alternate)" (which is the same edit as the OST track):

 

 

 

This overlay is used in several tracks: "The Ship Remembers", "The Capture Of Cinqué", "The Crossing". I wonder if there are official lyrics for this?  

[enderdrag64 624]

9 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Great post, @BrotherSoundand it captures a lot of how I felt as I listened through the score a few times now. 

 

Wow, that's nuts. I had no idea!

 

Is this the first Williams expansion to include tracked music? It makes sense why it's there, but I can't think of another example like that off the top of my head. 

 

Not an expansion per se, but I think I remember Jay saying once that Duel of the Fates on the TPM OST album actually has part of the recording replaced with tracked music from another part of the same recording, which they forgot to replicate on the 2018 album

[JohnnyD 1,220]

26 minutes ago, Chewy said:

I managed to isolate the choral overlay that was used in the "The Capture (Alternate)" (which is the same edit as the OST track):

 

 

This overlay is used in several tracks: "The Ship Remembers", "The Capture Of Cinqué", "The Crossing". I wonder if there are official lyrics for this?  

It is mentioned in the liner notes. It’s Mende for “Give us peace.”

[Faleel 5,340]

Always sounded like "Go ugly" to me

[Jay 37,287]

On 21/01/2023 at 1:34 AM, MrJosh said:

Wow, that's nuts. I had no idea!

 

Is this the first Williams expansion to include tracked music? It makes sense why it's there, but I can't think of another example like that off the top of my head. 

 

Well, I don't know if it is necessarily fair to call this "tracking" in this particular instance, since it wasn't something done for the needs of the final picture, but to make the strongest song possible (in someone's mind).  And it is really a song and not a cue, when you think about it.  So it's more like someone decided the song needed an instrumental bridge and they edited in the one recorded for the penultimate film cue, and made those other changes to the opening of the song, and that created the final version of the song.  

But I'm SO thankful to have the originally intended version now, and do prefer it!

 

 

On 21/01/2023 at 1:34 AM, MrJosh said:

I've listened to it 4 times so far. Twice on headphones, twice sitting in front of speakers. What I found interesting is that on my first listen, I enjoyed the Adams theme and the Americana writing far more than I did the various treatments of Cinque's theme or the other tranquil theme. But during the 2nd or 3rd, things shifted for me and I became more connected to Cinque's theme, and from then on it's been popping into my head and I'll start humming it randomly. 

 

Yea, it kind of is surprising just how often Cinque's Theme is used in this score... and how varied each instance is!  I never get sick of the theme at all!  And I've probably listened to this album 100 times or something.

 

On 21/01/2023 at 1:34 AM, MrJosh said:

I like how the choirs in some cases are used as overlays, and that is a cool and versatile idea; recording choir bits separately and then having freedom to overlay, fade them in/ out during different cues. 

 

Yea I feel like on paper that sounds like a bad idea, but it just works with this score.

 

 

On 21/01/2023 at 1:34 AM, MrJosh said:

I really love the children's choir in The Capture. 

 

I feel in love with it all over again when seeing it synced to picture in Holko's thread.

 

On 21/01/2023 at 1:34 AM, MrJosh said:

In July 4, 1839, something about the harmonic language around 2:10-2:25 or so and the angular string part, reminds me of something else. Possibly the intro cue after the Main Title in TPM oddly enough. Maybe it's in the same mode or using similar harmonies/ chords...I didn't take the time to analyze it. 

 

Yes, it is a bit like that TPM bit

 

 

On 21/01/2023 at 1:34 AM, MrJosh said:

Steering East has one of my favorite moments of Cinque's theme, on solo English horn.

 

It's so good!

 

On 21/01/2023 at 1:34 AM, MrJosh said:

I like the use of dual harps in the last minute of Tale of the Lion's Tooth (easier to hear in headphones). 

 

The more I listen to Williams' music, the more I admire his harp writing.  This episode of Maurizio's podcast really illuminated a lot for me.

 

 

On 21/01/2023 at 1:34 AM, MrJosh said:

One of the top highlights of the score for me is Discovering the Bible. I love Cinque's theme on solo flute, then hearing the English horn take over, then a beautiful cello part, and then solo horn. 

 

It's an amazing cue, seemed like it would have been a no-brainer to be on the OST album (like African Violet and The Verdict, but none of them are...)

 

And then the original version is fantastic as well, and so different.  I love getting two different by Williams for one piece of footage, especially when its 5 minutes long - so amazing.

 

On 21/01/2023 at 1:34 AM, MrJosh said:

This is a great release and it has been fun to get to know this score more. The OST didn't really get played a lot for me, and most of what I recalled was Dry Your Tears, Afrika and The Long Road Ahead, so it felt like an almost completely new score for me. 

 

I can't think of another score in Williams' ouvre where I like the expansion sooo much drastically more than the OST album, other than those really long scores that goes really short OSTs like Temple of Doom and Return of the Jedi

 

On 21/01/2023 at 1:34 AM, MrJosh said:

I will add some thoughts about the Additional Music later....

 

Please do!

[Jay 37,287]

21 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Is this the first Williams expansion to include tracked music? It makes sense why it's there, but I can't think of another example like that off the top of my head. 

 

17 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

The Lost World had a bonus track that combined two tracks just as in the movie.

 

16 hours ago, Holko said:

Black Sunday recreates the film credits in a bonus track, an edit of some cues from the finale.

CE3K again recreates the film credits as a bonus track, which replace the ending with an edit of other cues.

Superman recreates the film swap of the Main Title and again credits as bonus tracks.

 

Bonus tracks sure, but I dunno if there's any tracking in any main programs anywhere.

 

In the non-Williams world, the FOTR CR is full of tracking.

 

12 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

Not an expansion per se, but I think I remember Jay saying once that Duel of the Fates on the TPM OST album actually has part of the recording replaced with tracked music from another part of the same recording, which they forgot to replicate on the 2018 album

 

That is absolutely true, though it's again sort of like Amistad more the case of making an end credits "song" as strong as it can be than an actual utilitarian need for final film footage.  It's like they decided the piece was stronger with those minor parts replaced by a stronger performance of similar material.

 

 

Speaking of Williams OST albums, the Tintin album has two instances of film tracking replicated on disc.

[BrotherSound 2,242]

The Rise of Skywalker album replicates the film’s tracking of some of Psalm of the Sith into the middle of Geneology:

 

10 Join Me 3:43

0:00-1:31 5M8 Genealogy

1:31-2:58 8M4 Psalm of the Sith

2:58-end 5M8 Genealogy [continued]

[Brundlefly 2,385]

@Jay But doesn't the edit in Amistad make it the only OST by John Williams that has the same part of recorded music appearing three times on the album?

[crocodile 7,984]

Quite late to the party (due to shipping delays and order mix-up) but just wanted to say it is a fantastic album. I liked the original album but this new set helps me to appreciate the intricacies of the music more. For a drama score, it is really long as well. I certainly didn't expect this much "new" material to discover. Definitely one of the biggest surprises in 2022.

 

Originally, I did put it as no. 2 on my best of list behind Willow, based on my anticipation alone, but, to be honest, I need to update my listing ever so slightly. It is clearly the expansion album of the year.

 

Karol

[Jay 37,287]

4 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

@Jay But doesn't the edit in Amistad make it the only OST by John Williams that has the same part of recorded music appearing three times on the album?

 

Ooh indeed it might be, yes. I'd have to think about it to be sure. There's definitely a ton of times he put the same recordings on OST albums twice, but this might be the only 3-timer.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

The complete release of revenge of the sith would have three battle of the heroes from the same recording.

[enderdrag64 624]

6 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

@Jay But doesn't the edit in Amistad make it the only OST by John Williams that has the same part of recorded music appearing three times on the album?

I don't think so. Again with the TPM OST, 7m3 End Credit appears in 

02 Duel of the Fates

17 Augie's Municipal Band and End Credits (2:16-6:29)

14 The Droid Invasion and The Appearance of Darth Maul (4:57 to end)

 

 

[Jay 37,287]

Ah right, great call! 

[Jay 37,287]

On 21/01/2023 at 10:59 AM, Chewy said:

I managed to isolate the choral overlay that was used in the "The Capture (Alternate)" (which is the same edit as the OST track):

 

 

This overlay is used in several tracks: "The Ship Remembers", "The Capture Of Cinqué", "The Crossing". I wonder if there are official lyrics for this?  

 

Wow, thank you for that!  I can't believe it never occurred to me to use reverse phasing to get that clean.

 

This overlay seems to have been initially written for The Ship Remembers and then added into those other 3 cues later.

 

 

 

Speaking of The Capture, the children's choir was also recorded as an overlay, and it's interesting that between The Capture and The Capture (Alternate), it begins at slightly different points in the cue.

[MrJosh 892]

On 21/01/2023 at 8:18 PM, Jay said:

 

Well, I don't know if it is necessarily fair to call this "tracking" in this particular instance, since it wasn't something done for the needs of the final picture, but to make the strongest song possible (in someone's mind).  And it is really a song and not a cue, when you think about it.  So it's more like someone decided the song needed an instrumental bridge and they edited in the one recorded for the penultimate film cue, and made those other changes to the opening of the song, and that created the final version of the song.  

But I'm SO thankful to have the originally intended version now, and do prefer it!

Ah yeah, that's true...I agree that it's not accurate to call it 'tracking!' 

 

 

On 21/01/2023 at 8:18 PM, Jay said:

  This episode of Maurizio's podcast really illuminated a lot for me.

 

I've been meaning to catch up on Maurizio's podcast episodes, I'm excited to listen to this one. Thanks for reminding me to get back on that!

 

 

 

-----------------

Some thoughts about the Additional Music section of the release:

 

I LOVE having the full take of Pamela's singing on Introduction (alternate). Good call including the whole thing, there's something special about it. 

 

I really love having the two guitar source cues, they are really nice! I'm glad Williams was apparently not against them being included. I can imagine the cries of anguish if they had not been.

 

What is Their Story (original). Wow, I really like both the original and revised version of this cue. I like them both, for me there is no clear winner. Really glad they both exist!

 

Tales of Horror (alternate excerpts). Another 'wow', this is one of the top highlights for me, hearing these two alternate ideas for the 'give us us free' scene. I think my favorite by far is actually the orchestral 'Dry your tears' theme. It's great, and maybe my favorite statement of the theme!

 

Discovering the Bible (alternate). Crazy and really cool that the original version was mostly non-thematic and so different from the revised version. I really like it too! I love the horn solo at 2:19 and how the same musical idea/ motif is then repeated by the flute, then oboe, then cellos, then violins...etc. Such a cool cue. 

 

Cinque's Memories of Home. Interesting to learn that this revised version was written, but in the end, the original stayed in the film.

 

Going Home (alternate). I'm not sure which version I prefer, but I like them both of course. 

 

Dry Your Tears, Afrika (alternate). I like the percussion starting at the beginning better! I also really like the original passage for the replaced section, and the little trumpet bits happening through it. Also was surprised to hear the instrument at the very end (is that synth? a percussion instrument/ mallets?) is a lot quieter than it is on the revised one. 

 

 

Also, as has been echoed earlier, thanks so much @Jay for the write-up section in the booklet about the differences in each of the alternate/ bonus tracks. Super helpful, well written and clear. I do hope that continues in future releases when it makes sense for it to. 

 

Man, the selection of alternates is pretty awesome on this release. Did not expect that to be!

[Jay 37,287]

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

I've been meaning to catch up on Maurizio's podcast episodes, I'm excited to listen to this one. Thanks for reminding me to get back on that!

 

It was a really interesting one, I learned a lot!  the Gloria Cheng was is really interesting too!

 

 

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

I LOVE having the full take of Pamela's singing on Introduction (alternate). Good call including the whole thing, there's something special about it. 

 

Yes!

 

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

I really love having the two guitar source cues, they are really nice! I'm glad Williams was apparently not against them being included. I can imagine the cries of anguish if they had not been.

 

I love them!  Well, one more than the other, but it's definitely a style I'd enjoy hearing more of!

 

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

What is Their Story (original). Wow, I really like both the original and revised version of this cue. I like them both, for me there is no clear winner. Really glad they both exist!

 

The most Americana sounding passage in the entire score is in the original version.  The revision is nice for the rare instrumental rendition of the Dry Your Tears, Afrika theme.

 

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Tales of Horror (alternate excerpts). Another 'wow', this is one of the top highlights for me, hearing these two alternate ideas for the 'give us us free' scene. I think my favorite by far is actually the orchestral 'Dry your tears' theme. It's great, and maybe my favorite statement of the theme!

 

Definitely, might be my favorite statement of the theme too!

 

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Discovering the Bible (alternate). Crazy and really cool that the original version was mostly non-thematic and so different from the revised version. I really like it too! I love the horn solo at 2:19 and how the same musical idea/ motif is then repeated by the flute, then oboe, then cellos, then violins...etc. Such a cool cue. 

 

Isn't it amazing that the man scores the entire picture, they start recording, and Spielberg asks for all these changes.  And it's not just inserts, but entire 3 and 5 minute cues completely rewritten.  And the rewrites are just as awesome as the originals.  What a legend.  

 

Yea, both versions of this cue are heavenly (no pun intended )

 

 

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Cinque's Memories of Home. Interesting to learn that this revised version was written, but in the end, the original stayed in the film.

 

I still wonder if it was recorded as more of a concert arrangement of the home theme, and the paperwork was just kinda wrong about what it was.  I dunno.

 

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Going Home (alternate). I'm not sure which version I prefer, but I like them both of course. 

 

It's interesting, at first I was like well, this is cool, but of course I liked the Dillard version.  But then the most I listened, the moods each version creates are distinct enough that it feels more and more like a different composition to me.  It's amazing how one solo line can change things!  And, it's interesting that Spielberg used half of each version in the film!

 

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Dry Your Tears, Afrika (alternate). I like the percussion starting at the beginning better! I also really like the original passage for the replaced section, and the little trumpet bits happening through it. Also was surprised to hear the instrument at the very end (is that synth? a percussion instrument/ mallets?) is a lot quieter than it is on the revised one. 

 

The trumpet bits are so nifty, I wanted to be sure to include them in the sample on LLL's website

 

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Also, as has been echoed earlier, thanks so much @Jay for the write-up section in the booklet about the differences in each of the alternate/ bonus tracks. Super helpful, well written and clear.

 

Oh thank you for saying that, that is really good to hear!

 

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

I do hope that continues in future releases when it makes sense for it to. 

 

I hope so too!

 

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Man, the selection of alternates is pretty awesome on this release. Did not expect that to be!

 

Right!?  It's like a 45 minute mini-album that almost covers all aspects of the score on its own

[MrJosh 892]

23 hours ago, Jay said:

I love them!  Well, one more than the other, but it's definitely a style I'd enjoy hearing more of!

Which one is your fav?

 

23 hours ago, Jay said:

Isn't it amazing that the man scores the entire picture, they start recording, and Spielberg asks for all these changes.  And it's not just inserts, but entire 3 and 5 minute cues completely rewritten.  And the rewrites are just as awesome as the originals.  What a legend.  

wow yeah, that is amazing. 

 

23 hours ago, Jay said:

The trumpet bits are so nifty, I wanted to be sure to include them in the sample on LLL's website

good call!

 

Well, going to go have a 5th listen-through now!

[Jay 37,287]

2 minutes ago, MrJosh said:

Which one is your fav?

 

The first one in the track (from 0:00-1:12).  The other one (1:12-end) doesn't tickle my fancy as much, somehow.

[Jay 37,287]

I was just going through a bunch of old files on my computer and found this:  A recommended playlist for anyone who wants to check out a mini-album of previously unreleased music before digging into the whole enchilada

 

1-01    Introduction And Retribution
1-03    Steering East
1-06    Meeting Of The Minds
1-07    Counsel Meets Client
1-09    Visiting Adams
2-15    What Is Their Story? (Alternate)
2-12    Cinque's Theme (Solo Flute)
1-11    Learning To Count
2-11    Harbor Tavern Talk
1-12    Tale Of The Lion's Tooth
2-17    Tales of Horror (Alternate Excerpt)
1-16    Discovering The Bible
1-17    Prisoners' Song
1-19    Cinque's Legal Mind
1-20    The African Violet
2-03    The Verdict 
2-20    Going Home (Alternate)
2-21    Dry Your Tears, Afrika (Alternate)

 

That's an album of just under 1 hour, and only the very beginning and very ending of that playlist was on the OST album

[Michael George Pringle 0]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:24 PM, Jay said:

No commentary on the scene itself, just, godddamn, how good is the John Williams music here

 

 

This is the same John Williams that was the last person to be knighted by the queen‽ 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

9 hours ago, Michael George Pringle said:

This is the same John Williams that was the last person to be knighted by the queen‽ 

 

You... don't know who John Williams is?

[Brando 1,856]

9 hours ago, Michael George Pringle said:

This is the same John Williams that was the last person to be knighted by the queen‽ 

......yes?

[GerateWohl 4,338]

Sorry to say that. But this expansion is far too long for me.

Great score, great additional highlights.

But I never make it through disk one if I listen to it in one go.

Too much of the same.

Disk 2 works better.

But here the OST is by far the better listening experience.

 

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Um no 😜

[Faleel 5,340]

11 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Sorry to say that. But this expansion is far too long for me.

Great score, great additional highlights.

But I never make it through disk one if I listen to it in one go.

Too much of the same.

Disk 2 works better.

But here the OST is by far the better listening experience.

 

Younglings and their attention spans today!

[GerateWohl 4,338]

30 minutes ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

Younglings and their attention spans today!

Yeah, I didn't grow up in the 90s and during that time avoided techno. So, I am not used to listening to endless repetitions of the same tune over and over again.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

12 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

But I never make it through disk one if I listen to it in one go.

 

Just put on the telly!

[ThePenitentMan1 742]

On 25/04/2023 at 11:21 PM, GerateWohl said:

Sorry to say that. But this expansion is far too long for me.

Great score, great additional highlights.

But I never make it through disk one if I listen to it in one go.

Too much of the same.

Disk 2 works better.

But here the OST is by far the better listening experience.

 

 

It's fine that you'd prefer a shorter program than the complete score.

 

But you at least agree that it's important for every single cue recorded for the score to be released on an expansion, right?

 

On 25/04/2023 at 7:53 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

You... don't know who John Williams is?

 

I think he's a guitarist or something?

[Bellosh 3,389]

wow

 

'Meeting of the Minds' should be exhibit A when it comes to reasons why Expansions are so worth it.

 

Incredible cue.  How in the heck did this not make the OST?!

[Jay 37,287]

How did The African Violet not make the OST?

 

Or The Verdict?

 

The mind boggles.

[Edmilson 7,393]

I long for the day when we'll be all discussing the great cues from The Patriot that were inexplicably excluded from the OST (and replaced by a reprise of the end credits).

[BrotherSound 2,242]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

I long for the day when we'll be all discussing the great cues from The Patriot that were inexplicably excluded from the OST (and replaced by a reprise of the end credits).

It’ll be worth it for ‘The North Star’ alone!

[Jay 37,287]

On the latest episode of "The Legacy Of John Williams", Mike Matessino, @TownerFan, @mahler3 and myself discuss the anniversary edition release of Amistad

 

https://thelegacyofjohnwilliams.com/2023/09/01/the-lost-world-amistad-podcast/