New SACD: GERHARDT & NPO • STAR WARS & CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND

[Amer 2,097]

 

Label Dutton Vocallion Annouces SACD/CD Hybrid Stereo and Multi Channel issue of STAR WARS& CLOSE ENCOUNTERS SUITES

Dutton Vocalion’s December 2022 release features several albums which are making their quadraphonic debut in the SACD format – and some of them are making their first ever quadraphonic debut. In the latter category comes Charles Gerhardt and the National Philharmonic Orchestra’s superb rendering of John William’s music for sci-fi blockbusters “Star Wars” and “Close Encounters of the Third Kind.” Originally recorded in opulent stereo sound by Kenneth Wilkinson at Kingsway Hall, London, for this reissue Michael J Dutton has gone back to the original multitrack tapes and created a brand-new quad mix, so that these lush orchestrations can be experienced in a fresh and exciting way. 

Note: these Hybrid SACDs can be played on any standard CD player.

CHARLES GERHARDT & NATIONAL PHILHARMONIC ORCHESTRA • STAR WARS & CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND [SACD Hybrid Multi-Channel]

Star Wars (John Williams) 1977
Concert suite, using the original film orchestration for large orchestra

THE ORIGINAL LP ARL1 2698 (1978) STEREO/REMIXED IN QUADRAPHONIC from the original analogue multitrack tapes by Michael J. Dutton

1 I Main Title
2 II The Little People Work
3 III Here They Come!
4 IV Princess Leia
5 V The Final Battle
6 VI The Throne Room and End Title

Close Encounters of the Third Kind (John Williams) 1977 Suite

7 Barnstorming – Arrival of the Mother Ship – The Pilots’ Return – The Visitors – Final Scene

NATIONAL PHILHARMONIC ORCHESTRA CHORUS [7] conducted by CHARLES GERHARDT

Recorded: Kingsway Hall, London, 23 December 1977
Recording engineers: Kenneth Wilkinson, A C Pinder
Editors: George Korngold, Charles Gerhardt
Producer: George Korngold

Remastered from the original analogue tapes by Michael J Dutton

Multi-Channel/Stereo
All tracks available in stereo and multi-channel

SACD
This Hybrid CD can be played on any standard CD player

CDLK 4642Product ID CDLK4642

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLK4642
 

[JohnTheBaptist 57]

Quad? And no stereo remix? Bizarre

[rough cut 1,714]

I guess in a 5.1 system, the front is silent? Then it shouldn’t matter much.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Finally a new release of this brilliant album, which was missing from the remasters of the full regular series. Seems a bit unclear though if anything has been done (remaster/remix) to the Stereo version, or just to the surround mix?

[rough cut 1,714]

The website says ‘remastered from the original analogue tapes by Michael J Dutton’ before going in to specifics for both the SACD and CD format, so I interpret that as both formats have been remastered.

[QuartalHarmony 542]

Dutton is an excellent, careful and conscientious mixer so I very much doubt he will have left the stereo untouched. Apart from anything else, surely it would have been much more effort for them to locate the album master tape for the stereo tracks and the original multichannel tapes for the 5.1. Much easier to construct the 5.1 then down mix it to stereo.

 

Interestingly, I believe this was recorded a mere four days before SW was released in the UK.

 

Mark

[Jay 37,346]

Here it is on Amazon US

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BPDBQLS3

 

That page, incidentally, says the release date was back on December 7th.

 

Does anybody here have this yet?

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Damn, that's a great price!

 

The stereo tracks on an SACD release like this should be high res, right?

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

Better get it from a proper store.

 

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLK4642

 

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9414405--john-williams-star-wars-close-encounters-of-the-third-kind

 

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/poprock/detail/-/art/national-philharmonic-orchestra-star-wars-close-encounters-of-the-third-kind/hnum/11129694

 

https://imusic.no/music/0765387464226/national-philharmonic-orchestra-charles-gerhardt-2023-star-wars-close-encounters-of-the-third-kind-cd

[rough cut 1,714]

23 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Damn, that's a great price!

 

The stereo tracks on an SACD release like this should be high res, right?

The stereo tracks should be as any proper CD. That is, 16-bit with sample rate of 44.1kHz, which is the standard lossless audio format.

 

I will always argue that that is as much as you need.

 

As long as the content is in high quality - and as I understand this CD is newly and properly remastered - you will have a hard time discerning any difference between a CD and “hi res” (which is usually defined as 24bit/96kHz or 24bit/192kHz).

Of course, SACD sometimes come with other benefits such as multichannel content which might improve the listening experience - this particular CD has a “quadrophonic” mix (which is a 4.0 channel mix that was popular during the 70’s, instead of the standard 5.1 mix that gained popularity during the 90’s).

[ciarlese 248]

20 hours ago, rough cut said:

The stereo tracks should be as any proper CD. That is, 16-bit with sample rate of 44.1kHz, which is the standard lossless audio format.

 

I will always argue that that is as much as you need.

 

As long as the content is in high quality - and as I understand this CD is newly and properly remastered - you will have a hard time discerning any difference between a CD and “hi res” (which is usually defined as 24bit/96kHz or 24bit/192kHz).

This theorem should prove that the standard cd sample rate is what you need to reproduce the actual sound wave and enything above it won't produce any improvement.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist–Shannon_sampling_theorem

[GerateWohl 4,356]

This is the one of the three Gerhardt Star Wars recordings that I don't have yet. Probably I will get that one.

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

18 minutes ago, ciarlese said:

This theorem should prove that the standard cd sample rate is what you need to reproduce the actual sound wave and enything above it won't produce any improvement.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist–Shannon_sampling_theorem

 

Not entirely. There's the problem of short transients, which can contain frequencies higher than half the sampling frequency. 

 

11 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

This is the one of the three Gerhardt Star Wars recordings that I don't have yet. Probably I will get that one.

 

Get it for the extended CE3K suite. Looking forward to hearing the fresh remastering!

[Tom Guernsey 2,282]

30 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Get it for the extended CE3K suite. Looking forward to hearing the fresh remastering!

Will be interesting to see how much improved the sound is (already very good) so may have to pick this up. However either way for those who don’t have it, I second the recommendation to get it for the CE3K suite which is much longer than any other subsequent recordings and makes for a superb tone poem version of the score. Unlike the Star Wars suite which is basically a selection of discrete highlights, CE3K is much more organic. It’s a model I’d enjoy hearing applied to a few other scores to turn them into actual concert works rather than suites of highlights as tends to be the case (enjoyable though that is!).

[thx99 1,740]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Not entirely. There's the problem of short transients, which can contain frequencies higher than half the sampling frequency.

 

I think the point @ciarlese might have been trying to make is that human hearing typically does not extend beyond around 20 kHz, so a 44.1 kHz sampling rate is capable of capturing the full range of human hearing.  So even if a transient event is present in a recording and excites frequencies above 22.05 kHz, we likely would not be able to perceive it anyway.

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

7 hours ago, thx99 said:

 

I think the point @ciarlese might have been trying to make is that human hearing typically does not extend beyond around 20 kHz, so a 44.1 kHz sampling rate is capable of capturing the full range of human hearing.  So even if a transient event is present in a recording and excites frequencies above 22.05 kHz, we likely would not be able to perceive it anyway.

 

If I've understood correctly, we're able to correctly perceive transients that contain frequency components higher than that of the audible range. 

 

10 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

This is the one of the three Gerhardt Star Wars recordings that I don't have yet. Probably I will get that one.

 

Just ordered it directly from the label.

 

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLK4642

[QuartalHarmony 542]

Depending on how it’s been made, it could have up to three versions on one disc:

 

1) Standard CD layer, playable on any normal CD transport.

 

2) Stereo ‘high-res’ DSD layer, playable only on players that can decode it.

 

3) Multichannel (anything up to 5.1) DSD layer. Also playable only on players that can decide it and obviously needs up to a 5.1 speaker system to listen to it.

 

Based on the other Dutton Vocalion discs I’ve got where a vintage ‘quad’ mix has been remastered, it might well have been rejigged into 5.1 from the original 4.0, and done very well. We won’t know exactly what it is until someone buys one and plays it on a compatible player.

I would recommend that arguments about sampling rates, Shannon-Nyquist, human hearing, DAC filter settings etc. are best left running interminably and inconclusively on hifi forums rather than being repeated here!

 

Mark

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

13 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

Based on the other Dutton Vocalion discs I’ve got where a vintage ‘quad’ mix has been remastered, it might well have been rejigged into 5.1 from the original 4.0, and done very well. We won’t know exactly what it is until someone buys one and plays it on a compatible player.

 

It literally says REMIXED IN QUADRAPHONIC.

 

14 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

I would recommend that arguments about sampling rates, Shannon-Nyquist, human hearing, DAC filter settings etc. are best left running interminably and inconclusively on hifi forums rather than being repeated here!

 

I recommend not participating in discussions you're not interested in.

[thx99 1,740]

4 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

If I've understood correctly, we're able to correctly perceive transients that contain frequency components higher than that of the audible range. 

Not exactly. A true transient (Dirac delta) contains energy at all frequencies, by definition. We will hear the energy content of that transient up to about 20 kHz (or whatever your max range may be), but we will not hear any of the content above that.

[QuartalHarmony 542]

10 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

It literally says REMIXED IN QUADRAPHONIC.

It literally does. Marketing blurbs aren’t always correct. I was speaking from previous experience.

 

10 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I recommend not participating in discussions you're not interested in.

Excellent advice: I wasn’t participating in the discussion, just pointing out that this particular debate has been done to death many times on other forums and I’ve only ever seen it end unpleasantly and inconclusively. I was merely trying to preserve a bit of Christmas magic by avoiding such unpleasantness in this forum.

 

Mark

[rough cut 1,714]

No harm, no foul. I think the discussion so far has been respectful and calm.

 

Topics, facts and opinions will repeat themselves, otherwise 2/3 of the content on this forum would be non existent. BTW, what is actually the best recording of the Star Wars Main Theme? 😉

 

Speaking of Christmas magic - I am out traveling during the holidays but I got a notification that when I get back, there is a very special package waiting for me - Presumed Innocent, Spacecamp and Amistad. I’ll be sure to post a pic with the obligatory, celebratory cigar!

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

57 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

Excellent advice: I wasn’t participating in the discussion, just pointing out that this particular debate has been done to death many times on other forums and I’ve only ever seen it end unpleasantly and inconclusively. I was merely trying to preserve a bit of Christmas magic by avoiding such unpleasantness in this forum.

 

I think we'll managed to keep it civilised. Merry Christmas.

 

57 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

literally does. Marketing blurbs aren’t always correct. I was speaking from previous experience.

 

I have faith in the technical details given by Dutton. Regarding previous experience, are you referring to any of the earlier Gerhardt albums remastered by Dutton?

 

41 minutes ago, rough cut said:

Topics, facts and opinions will repeat themselves, otherwise 2/3 of the content on this forum would be non existent.

 

I believe this has been said before.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

4 hours ago, rough cut said:

BTW, what is actually the best recording of the Star Wars Main Theme? 😉

 

The one this thread is about. 

[Jay 37,346]

The first feedback I've seen from someone who has heard this release comes from Neil S Bulk

 

I'm happy this album is back in print. Having heard the new quad mix, my recommendation is to stick with the stereo mix, either through the CD layer or SA-CD layer.

And no, I haven't compared this to the previous Dolby Surround release.

Neil

 

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=149961&forumID=1&archive=0

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Ordered from Presto. I've always wanted this album, so it's nice to see it available again for a good price!

[1977 1,743]

On 28/12/2022 at 11:55 AM, Jurassic Shark said:

Get it for the extended CE3K suite.

 

😍

 

[Erik Woods 555]

So, I just listened to this and compared it to the original release. The stereo track is out of sync with the original '78 release but most won't notice the speed changes. But who knows which speed is right and were probably recorded without sync.

 

But what's really glaring is when you compare the stereo track and the SACD track on this new release. There is an absolutely HORRIBLE edit in track one from the transition of the Blockage Runner section into the end titles. 2:18. I mean, it's REALLY clunky. It adds an (off) extra beat that shouldn't be there. It's really bad!

 

So, I wouldn't listen to the SACD version, and even though there are some issues with the stereo track compared with the original release, most won't notice the speed issues. Stick with the stereo track.

 

-Erik-

[Jay 37,346]

Isn't it more likely that the 2022 has the correct speed and the old CD had the wrong speed, and not the other way around?

[Erik Woods 555]

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Isn't it more likely that the 2022 has the correct speed and the old CD had the wrong speed, and not the other way around?

I can't be certain because I don't think there was any sort of sync set up during the recording session. There is no mention of a pilot tone on the picture inside the booklet of the notes on the outside of the reel.

When comparing the '78 stereo track to this new transfer, you can hear (and see) various time fluctuations throughout the entire playing time of the first track. Sometimes one track is faster than the other but then then they sync up, then the other track is fast and then come back into sync. But what's clear is that the 2022 stereo transfer is longer. Annnnnnd, the bad edit in the SACD version of this album is pretty brutal. 

 

-Erik- 

[Bespin 8,480]

Send me the two files, I'll tell you which one is at the "best" speed.

[Amer 2,097]

 

Neil S Bulk also added at the FSM Thread [see link above]

 

 

 

 

 

This release is hardly a disaster. As this was never intended to sync with picture, it's perfectly normal for an analog album recording to have a bit of drift. It looks like it was recorded to analog multitrack tape without sync. Then it was dubbed down to stereo and edited on more machines that are not running at the precise same speed as each other. The album master is probably on 1/4" tape which won't have sync on it, too, so the playback machine will differ from the machine that recorded it. Who is to say the playback machine in the 80s is more or less accurate than the machine that played it back for this release? In real world listening, you'll be hard pressed to spot a pitch difference between these.

 

This isn't a "Kind Of Blue" situation: https://www.stereophile.com/thefifthelement/206fifth/

 

The original stereo album master has been unavailable on CD for years and to have that back and on SACD as well is great.

 

Neil

 

 

 

 

 

[Bespin 8,480]

So it seems the transition problem (between the first 2:18 part of the Star Wars theme and the finale) only appears on the new quadraphonic mix, the stereo album master that appears on the SACD is fine.

 

NSBuck added:

 

Quote

The performance is absolutely edited and perfected on the stereo album master. My theory, without access to the session masters, is the main title portion of track 1 (the first 2:18 or so) was recorded as written for the film proper, with a definite ending and without going into the end title portion. What's heard on the quad master supports this, as there's the same ending in the performance that's also heard on the 1997 SE release of the film recording. This ending was not used on the original stereo album master but is now on the quad mix.

Then the ending of the piece (the remaining 3:25) was recorded separately and intended to be edited onto the main title. They don't quite go together, so my theory is another take was recorded, a bridge between the main and end titles. It's this take that's missing on the quad mix assembly of the "Main Title."

 

 

[Jay 37,346]

It was clear the entire time that that was only on the new quadrophonic mix and not the stereo mix. 

 

And please don't be rude about Neil's name, it isn't funny. 

[Bespin 8,480]

Mispelling error, I fixed it.

[rough cut 1,714]

How does the new remaster sound - both the stereo and the quad - compared to the old CD? Did anyone have a chance to compare?

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Well the stereo mix is the one I wanted anyway, so I’m still happy to be getting this album.

[Bespin 8,480]

11 minutes ago, rough cut said:

How does the new remaster - both the stereo and the quad - sound compared to the old CD? Did anyone have a chance to compare?

 

NSBulk said it's now his favourite version.

 

Quote

The stereo SA-CD has supplanted my personal hi-res LP transfer as my preferred version.

Neil

 

[Gurkensalat 340]

I would like to know if the quad mix has instruments surrounding the listener like it is the case with the Bernard Herrman recording or Bartoks Concert for Orchester conducted by Boulez on the same label? Or is it just a bit of ambience?

[Gurkensalat 340]

Meanwhile I have ordered this album and listened to it. So, I can answer my own question: The MC mix is quite immersive, with the whole orchestra wrapped around the listener in a circle. The strings are in front, the French horns in the left surround, the trumpets in the right surround, for example. I like it very much, since it is very involving and allows more details of the dense orchestration to come through. But I know that it is not everybody's cup of tea, which may be the reason that Neil does not recommend it. In general sound quality is very good for such an old recording, clean and clear with almost no hiss or distortion. Dynamics could be more, but is adaequate. On the whole very recommended, especially for MC fans.  In contrast e.g. to the overpriced Matrix SACD which just adds ambiance in the surrounds and does not offer much advantage to the CD tracks. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

5 hours ago, Gurkensalat said:

The strings are in front, the French horns in the left surround, the trumpets in the right surround, for example.

 

So it's like standing on the stage with the orchestra and… facing the auditorium?

[Gurkensalat 340]

No, then left and right would be switched. Violins are still front right, Celli front left. As I said, it is like sitting inside a circle. Other labels do this all the time, like 2L or Tacet, which have recorded among other works the complete Haydn and Beethoven string quartets in such a fashion (violins front, viola left surround, cello right surround). Artificial? Of course. But glorious!

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Regardless of the stereo vs surround discussion, this seems odd to me. I'm having enough issues with stereo recordings where the distances are off and the brass sounds closer than the strings (one of the things I don't like about Gerhardt's ESB, for example).

[Gurkensalat 340]

That is, because you strife to recreate the concert hall experience as closely as possible. I understand that, because normally this is also my goal. And standard surround recordings of orchestral music do this also by just reproducing ambience in the surrounds. It is perfectly fine. A prime example is the blu-ray of the JW Vienna concert which really transports you in the hall.  But that other kind of surround has not the goal of an imitation of the concert hall, but a deeper look inside the structure of the music. You just can discern the separate instruments and their lines better, as well as the interplay between different instruments.

[rough cut 1,714]

Really cool description of the surround feature. It sounds awesome.

[SyncMan 314]

Does anyone have any news on whether Dutton Vocallion will be handling the SACD release of ROTJ featuring Gerhardt and the NPO that came out on the RCA Red Seal label in 1983?

 

[Amer 2,097]

I have enquired about it But no response from them whatsoever. Lets hope it happens. DUTTON just released a new batch after a very long gap but nothing did stir any interest for me there.

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

They have used a long time releasing RCA's Classic Film Scores series, they're not in a hurry. I guess RotJ will come if the sales figures of SW/CE3K are satisfactory. 

[rough cut 1,714]

I wouldn’t mind a boxed set of Gerhardt’s Star Wars, Empire and Jedi in 5.1. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

I don't know if Empire exists in more than two tracks. Anybody?

[QuartalHarmony 542]

I'm not aware of it having had a release in anything more than 2.0, but the original master tape could have had all sorts of multichannel malarkey (i.e. multiple microphone feeds) preserved that could be used to make a multichannel version, were someone so inclined.

 

I didn't realise the quad was so immersive - I'm now quite tempted to buy it just to see.

 

Mark