Am I reading this right- a new ending for Indiana Jones 5 and which needs to be scored?

[Amvanquish 39]

So this is interesting. Williams was conducting his music in Milan last night and he said there is a new ending to shoot for Indiana 5 and which needs to be scored. Most interesting as per this concert report below

 

 

Concert report by Jason LeBlanc (original post)
Best pieces / performances were Helena’s Theme, Princees Leia’s Theme, Schindler’s List.
He mixed up Fawkes with Buckbeak, Empire with Jedi, the ET moon with the ET sunset, and seemed to take longer to tell the usual stories than their best more succinct versions
He said there was a new ending to “shoot” and then score for Indiana Jones 5!
But it was overall very special, he seemed to really cherish the experience, and the orchestra seemed to really give it their best. Williams made sure to highlight the soloists and they deserved it.

 

So the score was not completed in mid October - more work to do for JW with a new ending then.

I wonder who wasn’t happy with the ending ? Producer , Director , Disney Execs?? Or did they have a test screening and have reacted to comments ?

Im wondering now if Spielberg has made some suggestions or some improvements to tighten or expand the edit.
 

[Marian Schedenig 6,520]

I wouldn't necessarily count on "new ending" meaning an entirely new, different ending. They could have just changed some small things when required a reedit and a rescoring. Or of course they might have redone half of the film. I guess we'll find out sooner or later.

[Ricard 2,025]

In Williams' own words:

 

[Toillion 105]

Wasn't there rumors about there being test screenings that were reviewed poorly and then Mangold came to Twitter claiming that wasn't true? It makes me wonder if there was any truth to those rumors. 

 

Also, I couldn't really tell if he said "a new ending" or "another ending". Maybe an alternate ending was shot months ago but to avoid leaks a real ending is being worked on now?

[Richard Penna 2,639]

I suspect the OP's point is that if they're doing a new ending which needs scoring then Williams has therefore not yet finished composing or recording the score.

 

Although the rumours of a poorly reviewed original ending is providing plenty of fuel for those minority who have already decided they hate the movie for some reason.

[Garrett 116]

12 minutes ago, Toillion said:

Wasn't there rumors about there being test screenings that were reviewed poorly and then Mangold came to Twitter claiming that wasn't true? It makes me wonder if there was any truth to those rumors. 

 

Also, I couldn't really tell if he said "a new ending" or "another ending". Maybe an alternate ending was shot months ago but to avoid leaks a real ending is being worked on now?

Those were my thoughts as well. Perhaps the rumors were true.

 

I'm pretty sure he said "another ending."

 

All in all, I have a bad feeling about this. Alternate endings and reshoots don't seem to make for a good John Williams score. See The Rise of Skywalker as an example. It had some good ideas in the concert suites and OST, but the score as heard in the film was a mess.

 

 

 

 

[Yavar Moradi 1,817]

This is not a Rise of Skywalker situation. All that’s being newly done is the ENDING, based on what Williams said.

 

I know what my hope is… this film was shot before Ke Huy Quan returned to acting after decades away from it. Maybe this reunion at D23 led to some last minute conversations to take advantage of the extra buffer time before this film’s release, and give a very powerful onscreen relationship (easily the best part of the generally-problematic ToD) some lovely closure of some kind…

 

Just a hope, but I can dream. Obviously it’s far too late for him to be integrated into the movie. “Another ending” seems like it might just fit.

 

I’m surprised more people’s minds aren’t going to this hopeful possibility, but then I guess the men’s rights “they shall not replace us” trolls really do have their panties in a bunch about Phoebe Waller Bridge being in this, and they’re the loudest voices on the internet. 🙄 

 

Yavar

[Archive Collection 113]

“New ending” could mean a number of things:

 

* A newly filmed, additional scene for the end.

* A re-edited version of the original scene, modified for pacing, or with additional pickup shots.

When Williams says “new ending” I don’t think he’s referring to an entire third act. He probably means “final scene”, which isn’t really too objectionable. Let’s be honest, every film goes through reshoots, and there haven’t been any legitimate reports of the film being a disaster or mess (aside from the usual click-bait suspects, who are wrong 99% of the time).

 

So what could an “new ending” be? It’s probably just a scene which neatly and meaningfully ties up the whole series. It would be very difficult to craft a scene that pulls this off perfectly, so it’s understandable that they might have reshot it.

 

So, TLDR - nothing to be worried about :-)

[GerateWohl 2,854]

I remember, since the director's cut of Bladerunner came out and everybody liked the ending better than the one of the first theatrical cut, that the first version of a movie or the director's cut, the first cut, is always better and a producer''s cut just messes up version to add some dump crowd pleaser fillers to the movie.

 

Meanwhile I have seen some bad director's cuts and how a reedited version was much better. So that I can say, rework on a film might be normal part of the process and as long as I have no comparison I assume, it is for good.

 

On the other hand, there should be a consistent idea for a story and what it is about. Just changing and tweaking parts of a plot usually leads to a mess. Like the changes made to the original Obi-Wan script like letting Reva survive for a potential sequel or Ridley Scott's brillant idea to make Deckard a replicant in last minute. This really messes up things. Let us hope, that this is not the case here.

[Jurassic Shark 9,807]

Indiana Jones will be a replicant?

[Naïve Old Fart 7,984]

Cue the music:

#DA DA DA DA-DA-DAAAA. DA-DAAA DA DA-DA-DA-DA-DADAAAA#

[Alex 2,525]

It’s going to be Phoebe Waller-Bridge stabbing Indy through the chest with a lightsaber, before turning to the camera Fleabag style and putting the fedora on her head, winking at the audience before riding off into the sunset.

[Yavar Moradi 1,817]

I think that is literally what a lot of nutty guys are thinking, lol.

 

Yavar

[Bespin 7,011]

Sometimes a very small change in a montage is enough to request a revision of a cue I think.

[Madmartigan JC 72]

According to Mangold, the film was finished almost a year in advance of the release date, and the delay has to do with conflicting releases rather than having to rework parts of the movie. So any changes remainig are probably not too meaningful.

Or, we could be getting a Jurassic Park new ending situation...

[Amvanquish 39]

 

Well this guy seems to know a bit and quotes JW

This guy who has the YT OverlordDVD seems to have personally riled Mangold 

 

[Bellosh 1,950]

i assume you're a troll at this point.

 

but i couldn't imagine being that stupid where you would even watch that video, let alone believe it.

 

you weirdos are obsessed with Kathleen Kennedy.  Go outside man.

[Richard Penna 2,639]

Hang on, isn't the OP the same guy who demanded that the composer of the trailer music come foward and admit they did the music and who used extensive 'film industry credentials' to somehow persuade us that we were all wrong?

 

That same person is now convinced the ending has changed based on a video of a guy in a mask with distorted voice?

 

Please, please tell us you're a troll.

[Amvanquish 39]

I’m no troll and I take it you’ve watched all of it (I stumbled upon it 20 minutes ago and it opened my eyes)- but if Mangold is quoting this guy in Twitter tweets then ,who knows,  maybe what he says should be considered. Maybe the ending was too woke for those who may have seen the film at test screenings.

If Indiana through a time machine is wiped from existence leaving a woman to be the new Indiana Jones - god daughter or not - how do you think the fan base would feel ?

And a day into its release the box office would plummet .

The same can be said of James Bond who in Ian Flemings books is a white Caucasian misogynist playboy spy .

Change that and you’ve lost the plot and the franchise.

The first thing you would say after seeing Indiana next June would likely to be - why wasn’t this sorted out before it was released and corrected. 

All things should be discussed not dismissed regardless of whether you like it or not.

I happen to listen to all points of view to build a picture regardless of how crazy it might be - sometimes they might just be right!

Also I don’t dismiss trailer music - I’ve watched quite a few trailers in my time and some of the music composed has been quite good .

Sometimes the main composers may write a 2 minute segment and give it to trailer companies to orchestrate and score using computerised decks to achieve a full orchestral score.

Clearly none of you criticising me have worked in the industry like I have. 
However, back to Indiana Jones 

principal photography wrapped, that’s it WRAPPED, in February 2022, pickup shots etc are always  the norm , but 10 months afterwards a new ending??? 
But when a writer in some of the trades says there has been screenings refuting what Mangold has said - then there should be questions asked.
Maybe JW let something out of the bag in Milan? 
It’s going to be a very interesting next few weeks with leaks coming thick and fast which we will have to sift through .

How bad did the ending have to be to warrant a new ending and reshoot ? 
That’s the question to be asked!

 

 

 

[Bellosh 1,950]

i hope he's a troll...this forum will take care of it if he will.

 

but also....these new installment's of franchises that people have their personality wrapped up in and always believe there is nefarious intentions on ruining said franchises, really bring out the mouth breathers.

 

Of course Indy 5 would eventually bring them out, fortunately this forum isn't as much of a cesspool as other internet circles (twitter, reddit, ect)

 

there is no doubt good conversation to be had when it comes to the new star wars movies and Indy 5 and the decisions that were made.  but as soon as someone posts a video with a mention of Kathleen Kennedy in the screencap......their motives are very clear.

[Richard Penna 2,639]

11 minutes ago, Amvanquish said:

if Mangold is quoting this guy in Twitter tweets then ,who knows,  maybe what he says should be considered.

 

Do you mean the guy who Mangold said was talking rubbish and not to believe anonymous, motivated reports?

 

The most noteworthy piece of news that comes out of any of this is that possibly Mangold is changing something about the ending of the film and it may require Williams to record a new piece of music. That's not news.

[Manakin Skywalker 3,891]

49 minutes ago, Amvanquish said:

Clearly none of you criticising me have worked in the industry like I have. 

 

I think you've already proven to everyone here that you've never been anywhere near the "industry".

[Amvanquish 39]

I suggest you ask Tim Burden 

He will confirm who I am and what I have done in the U.K. Film Exhibition industry for over 20 years. 
 

[Jurassic Shark 9,807]

Paging @mahler3!

[Amvanquish 39]

I’m sure Jurassic Shark , Tim

will provide you with the answer but the position I was in was quite powerful. I would sometimes see a working print of a film with temp music on and before film critics did and in some instances I was able to make suggestions to the film maker who sometimes sat in on the screenings with me or my equivalent industry colleagues.

i sometimes made the suggestion that if you took that swear word out or redubbed it , you could change it from a 15 cert to a 12A and get an extra £5m-£10m at the box office , dependent sometimes on where it was positioned datewise and what other films were being released close to it. And sometimes those changes happened especially if it was a British film.

We now know that the move was gradually made in the nineties by film makers  to then create two versions and scenes shot twice with different language, A PG version for airlines and hotels, whilst a 12A/15 cert version would be in the cinema. So I was very much in the scheme of things as the industry evolved with video, CD , DVDs and eventually social media streaming 

 

[Jurassic Shark 9,807]

11 minutes ago, Amvanquish said:

I’m sure Jurassic Shark , Tim

will provide you with the answer but the position I was in was quite powerful. I would sometimes see a working print of a film with temp music on and before film critics did and in some instances I was able to make suggestions to the film maker  ie if you took that swear word out or redubbed it , you could change it from a 15 cert to a 12A and get an extra £5m-£10m at the box office , dependent sometimes on where it was positioned datewise and what other films were being released close to it. And sometimes those changes happened especially if it was a British film.

We now know that the move was gradually made in the nineties by film makers  to then create two versions and scenes shot twice with different language, A PG version for airlines and hotels, whilst a 12A/15 cert version would be in the cinema. 

 

 

I don't doubt you, mate, I just thought it would be nice if Tim could put a stop to this banter.

 

May I ask if you worked for the BBFC?

[Amvanquish 39]

No I was the Senior Film Buyer for UCI , Warner Village and Vue cinemas working out of their Head Offices in Central London.

Sometimes I’d watch 4 maybe 5 films a day of all genres then would make a decision as to whether to negotiate a deal to show them and and what size of screen I would put them in , whether we had 2/3 or 4 prints of a major film for release like a Bond or Star Wars film for scheduling purposes  - each print and it’s revenue would be negotiated separately . I’d go to premieres nearly every week and be in screening rooms morning noon and night

[crumbs 12,972]

3 hours ago, Amvanquish said:

 

Well this guy seems to know a bit and quotes JW

This guy who has the YT OverlordDVD seems to have personally riled Mangold 

 

 

I dunno how anyone with 2 brain cells could watch that video and not immediately detect the clickbait.

 

Outrage culture sells and people like "Doomcock" have learned how to monetise it. Please don't contribute to this scam by using his videos as "evidence" for a baseless conspiracy theory that's been denied multiple times by the film's director. 

[Manakin Skywalker 3,891]

3 hours ago, Amvanquish said:

Well this guy seems to know a bit and quotes JW

This guy who has the YT OverlordDVD seems to have personally riled Mangold 

 

Well, in the case that you aren't a troll, or making some sort of bizarre joke, I must inform you that Doomcock (along with Mike Zeroh and many others) are notorious trolls themselves, who tend to never be right about anything. They've been the laughingstock of the Star Wars/Lucasfilm/Disney community for years. Nothing they say can be trusted. They make up vitriolic rumors using tiny grains of truth (such as JW's quote) to stir up drama, which in turn gives them more views, and more views = more revenue.

[Amvanquish 39]

Yes Crumbs 

but sometimes these guys have industry contacts which happen to be correct. And I have to say 10 months after filming finished in February 2022 when Mangold said it was a wrap .

He tweeted that . And now JW has said there’s a different ending a reshoot so needs a rescore. 
Surely after what John Williams said in Milan , it’s worth questioning what was wrong with the original ending .

And it’s not a bizarre joke Mannakin. I find it somewhat strange that the film has required a new ending . So what was wrong with it ?

[Manakin Skywalker 3,891]

7 minutes ago, Amvanquish said:

but sometimes these guys have industry contacts which happen to be correct.

 

Doomcock of all people does not. He has a track record of exactly 0 correct predictions.

 

7 minutes ago, Amvanquish said:

I find it somewhat strange that the film has required a new ending . So what was wrong with it ?

 

As others have stated, it could have been something as simple as them wanting to bring back Short Round for a quick cameo, or something to that effect. It doesn't mean there was necessarily something "wrong", or that they need to reshoot a large portion of the film. Yes, we don't know what the real situation is, but posting videos from a notorious prankster certainly won't get us any further to knowing the truth.

 

The Redditor who started all this nonsense earlier this month was already proven to be a liar, so most likely these reshoots are nothing more than a coincidence.

[Amvanquish 39]

Have you not wondered that because he has a mask - that he may actually be an industry professional ,has a computer generated voice and doesn’t want you to know who he really is .

Its something to consider, there are whistleblowers you know who do get to certain positions and usually often quote the line that they cannot say much because they are “ in the house “ .

[Manakin Skywalker 3,891]

1 minute ago, Amvanquish said:

Have you not wondered that because he has a mask - that he may actually be an industry professional

 

No, because he's been around for years, and has consistently been wrong.

[Amvanquish 39]

How do you know that?? 
The greatest art of deception sometimes is to make out that you are somebody else who spins a line but creates a conversation that questions the narrative

[Manakin Skywalker 3,891]

I really don't want to believe that you're trolling, but you're making it so incredibly difficult...

[Amvanquish 39]

I’m not - I’m questioning why Indiana Jones needs a new ending and John Williams has said a new ending needs to be rescored. 
That’s not trolling but now if you look all over social media - it’s alight with speculation as to what’s gone wrong and why it needs a new ending.

And as an industry professional I’m afraid I’m baffled as to why it has needed a new one .It’s quite a rarity in the industry after principal photography has wrapped. 
Reshoots and pickups are common in a script but not a new ending which JW has said needs a reshoot and a rescore. 
Do you not realize how important that is and may cost quite a few million dollars/pounds to achieve? 
For Harrison to come back for a few days more work might be more than a 6 figure payment and affect other contractual obligations . Although he said at ( was it Comecon) that he was happy with it , somebody high up obviously wasn’t .Speculating, the box office returns may have something to do with it and certain execs or maybe even Lucas and Spielberg  are worried about the ending and the fan base and have stepped in.

Oh well - we shall no doubt find out in due course 

 

[Bellosh 1,950]

10 minutes ago, Amvanquish said:

Do you not realize how important that is and may cost quite a few million dollars/pounds to achieve? 

 

it's definitely a burden on a small business like Disney.

[Amvanquish 39]

It’s definitely a burden when nearly all your other productions pushed into cinemas haven’t produced the expected returns and Disney plus are experiencing a backlash from the public and subscribers not happy with the way some animation is going with certain political , eco and gender perspectives being pushed. The public will vote by not buying a cinema ticket and if that’s a family of four , for Disney the revenue loss will be colossal.

And when you get Disney executives saying that the public should not be addressed as “ ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls” in their theme parks you start to wonder just what the hell is going on in their film making divisions including Fox and Paramount that they took over.

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17 hours ago, Amvanquish said:

I’m not - I’m questioning why Indiana Jones needs a new ending and John Williams has said a new ending needs to be rescored. 

 

For someone with industry experience you don't seem to understand the realities of modern filmmaking. Pick-ups have been commonplace on big studio films for decades now. 

 

This could be as simple as Mangold deciding the final scenes needed a few extra shots, necessitating inserts or extensions for cues Williams already recorded. The fact they're bringing him (and the entire orchestra) back to re-record the music is a good thing, considering the alternative is editing his music to fit a revised edit of the finale. 

 

You know, like The Last Crusade... 

[Amvanquish 39]

I know what you are saying Crumbs but I did say pickups and extra shoots in a script are common - but this is a new ending being reshot

[Brando 1,065]

Serious question, do you happen to be related to other forum member Mattris? I’m starting to think you two are either one and the same or this is a father/son tag team. 

[Manakin Skywalker 3,891]

@Mattrisis this your alt account? 

[Manakin Skywalker 3,891]

2 hours ago, Amvanquish said:

I know what you are saying Crumbs but I did say pickups and extra shoots in a script are common - but this is a new ending being reshot

 

We don't know the extent of what is being shot. It could literally just be a handful of shots to beef it up for all we know.

[Brando 1,065]

It could be a second unit getting shots of small stuff. Harrison or any other big names might not even be there

[Bryant Burnette 572]

7 hours ago, Amvanquish said:

I’m no troll and I take it you’ve watched all of it (I stumbled upon it 20 minutes ago and it opened my eyes)- but if Mangold is quoting this guy in Twitter tweets then ,who knows,  maybe what he says should be considered. Maybe the ending was too woke for those who may have seen the film at test screenings.

If Indiana through a time machine is wiped from existence leaving a woman to be the new Indiana Jones - god daughter or not - how do you think the fan base would feel ?

And a day into its release the box office would plummet .

The same can be said of James Bond who in Ian Flemings books is a white Caucasian misogynist playboy spy .

Change that and you’ve lost the plot and the franchise.

The first thing you would say after seeing Indiana next June would likely to be - why wasn’t this sorted out before it was released and corrected. 

All things should be discussed not dismissed regardless of whether you like it or not.

I happen to listen to all points of view to build a picture regardless of how crazy it might be - sometimes they might just be right!

Also I don’t dismiss trailer music - I’ve watched quite a few trailers in my time and some of the music composed has been quite good .

Sometimes the main composers may write a 2 minute segment and give it to trailer companies to orchestrate and score using computerised decks to achieve a full orchestral score.

Clearly none of you criticising me have worked in the industry like I have. 
However, back to Indiana Jones 

principal photography wrapped, that’s it WRAPPED, in February 2022, pickup shots etc are always  the norm , but 10 months afterwards a new ending??? 
But when a writer in some of the trades says there has been screenings refuting what Mangold has said - then there should be questions asked.
Maybe JW let something out of the bag in Milan? 
It’s going to be a very interesting next few weeks with leaks coming thick and fast which we will have to sift through .

How bad did the ending have to be to warrant a new ending and reshoot ? 
That’s the question to be asked!

 

 

 

 

Shut up.

[Manakin Skywalker 3,891]

3 hours ago, Amvanquish said:

It’s definitely a burden when nearly all your other productions pushed into cinemas haven’t produced the expected returns and Disney plus are experiencing a backlash from the public and subscribers not happy with the way some animation is going with certain political , eco and gender perspectives being pushed. The public will vote by not buying a cinema ticket and if that’s a family of four , for Disney the revenue loss will be colossal.

And when you get Disney executives saying that the public should not be addressed as “ ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls” in their theme parks you start to wonder just what the hell is going on in their film making divisions including Fox and Paramount that they took over.

 

Aaaand you've officially lost all credibility with this post here.

 

Are you a mushroom farmer? Because that's a shiitake!

[Tom 3,715]

Maybe they decided to end the film with an open casket instead of closed.  

[Brando 1,065]

I say we revisit this thread next July

[Toillion 105]

There’s definitely plenty of speculation to be had here, but all I know is that I’m definitely going to see the film opening weekend. I’m almost certainly going to enjoy the movie and I’m definitely going to love the music!

[King Mark 3,225]

oh no,we'll never hear the original ending cue.

 

Was JW even supposed to say that? I hope he doesn't get fired or get in trouble for it.

7 hours ago, Amvanquish said:

It’s definitely a burden when nearly all your other productions pushed into cinemas haven’t produced the expected returns and Disney plus are experiencing a backlash from the public and subscribers not happy with the way some animation is going with certain political , eco and gender perspectives being pushed.

 Isn't that one of the reasons Bob Iger was brought back a few days ago? At least to tone some of this stuff down? If there is indeed a new ending needing to be filmed I wouldn't be surprised it's a woke related issue that didn't sit well with the new management or people in test screenings.

But like some others have said, maybe they're just adding a few extra shots that need music.