The Armies Face-Off confusion

[enderdrag64 624]

I was curious if anyone here could help explain what the deal is with this cue? 

 

The recording sessions list refers to both a "6m1-N The Armies Face-Off" and a "6m1 Pt. 2 The Armies Face-Off" and an unnamed 6m1-X, whereas the sheets I've seen only include a "6m1 The Armies Face Off" and a "6m1X Randy's Forest Mist".

 

According to @Jay's breakdown in the OST breakdowns thread, 6m1 Pt.2 is on the OST in track 14, 0:00-0:30, 6m1-N is in the same track from 0:30-1:05, and 6m1X is also in the same track from 3:20-3:45.

 

However, @Manakin Skywalker's edit on youtube has 6 different uploads:

 

"The Armies Face Off" - 6m1-N The Armies Face-Off

"The Armies Face Off" (Film Version) - 6m1-N The Armies Face-Off (with insert from 0:27 to 0:59)

"The Armies Face Off" (Insert #1) - 6m1 [unknown] 

"The Armies Face Off" (Insert #2) - 6m1x Randy's Forest Mist

"The Armies Face Off" - 6m1-N The Armies Face-Off (with synth mockup of unrecorded material from 1:35-1:41)

"The Armies Face Off" (Alternate Mix) - 6m1-N The Armies Face-Off (with alternate takes)

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This leaves me completely confused. What is the difference between 6m1, 6m1-N and 6m1 Pt. 2? What is the film version insert? Are there even sheets out there for anything beyond 6m1 and 6m1X?

[Jay 37,346]

Well, first, Williams wrote a cue called 6M1 The Armies Face-Off:

 

 

This got recorded as 6M1N The Armies Face-Off.  Here's that entire cue:

 

 

 

Later, he wrote an Insert to replace 0:27-1:03 of the original cue that for some reason got recorded as 6M1 Pt. 2; Here is that entire Insert:

 

 

Later, he recorded an OVERLAY (music meant to mixed over an already-recorded cue) titled 6M1X Randy's Forest Mist:

 

 

Here's that entire overlay:

 

 

As you can see in the sketch, it was meant to overlay 0:28-0:45 of the original version of the cue, though I can't find a video on youtube where someone did this

 

 

 

For the OST album, he opened track 14 with the full 6M1 Pt. 2 Insert, segueing directly into 1:03- of 6M1N, and then includings 6M1X all by itself later in the track, even though it was originally meant to be used as an overlay.

 

The film version uses the 6M1 Pt. 2 Insert as intended, and also mixes in digeridoos:

 

 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

I somehow didn't realize at the time I uploaded these videos that the percussion insert was actually 6M1-Pt2 (which makes perfect sense now, given the listed length). I've made corrections to the tagged comments.

[enderdrag64 624]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Well, first, Williams wrote a cue called 6M1 The Armies Face-Off:

 

 

This got recorded as 6M1N The Armies Face-Off.  Here's that entire cue:

 

 

 

Later, he wrote an Insert to replace 0:27-1:03 of the original cue that for some reason got recorded as 6M1 Pt. 2; Here is that entire Insert:

 

 

Later, he recorded an OVERLAY (music meant to mixed over an already-recorded cue) titled 6M1X Randy's Forest Mist:

 

 

Here's that entire overlay:

 

 

As you can see in the sketch, it was meant to overlay 0:28-0:45 of the original version of the cue, though I can't find a video on youtube where someone did this

 

 

 

For the OST album, he opened track 14 with the full 6M1 Pt. 2 Insert, segueing directly into 1:03- of 6M1N, and then includings 6M1X all by itself later in the track, even though it was originally meant to be used as an overlay.

 

The film version uses the 6M1 Pt. 2 Insert as intended, and also mixes in digeridoos:

 

 

Thanks! This was very helpful. I wonder why 6m1 got recorded as 6m1N. Are there any noticeable differences with the sheets? Other than the bars that were presumably removed that were restored in the video with the mockup?

 

Also, is it known where the digeridoo came from? Was it another recorded overlay or just a synth

 

 

 

[Giftheck 916]

It's not the only cue that got a 'New' designation, you can hear in the documentaries the recording of "6M7 New" (The Great Duel), so the "N"/"New" designation was just to denote the cues where they removed bars and made subsequent alterations.

 

As for the digeridoo I always just assumed that was Ben Burtt's work that wound up on the UE because the Sony editors had no clue what they were doing.

[Jay 37,346]

Yes the digeridoos are surely Ben Burt's work and technically more of a diagetic sound than part of underscore. 

 

And yes the N would be because of changed bars. 

[Brando 1,860]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

more of a diabetic sound

 

[Jay 37,346]

Autocorrectc snafu fixed 

[enderdrag64 624]

Okay one more question:

6m4a The Fight Begins

 

Where did the orchestra-only alternate used in the film come from? I don't think it can be that they just dropped the choir because the orchestra in the two versions sounds nothing alike. But there are only sheets for the choral version and the sessions cue list mentions nothing of the alternate

[Giftheck 916]

You can hear John Williams dicussing a potential version of Duel of the Fates without the choir with George Lucas in one of the TPM documentaries, so I would assume that's where it comes from: it's the replacement of the opening choir should the choirless option be taken up. It was not meant to be used in the film the way it was. You can hear it in the album's "Qui-Gon's Noble End" track.

[enderdrag64 624]

6 hours ago, Giftheck said:

It's not the only cue that got a 'New' designation, you can hear in the documentaries the recording of "6M7 New" (The Great Duel), so the "N"/"New" designation was just to denote the cues where they removed bars and made subsequent alterations.

I've been comparing the sheets and the sessions list more closely to the youtube edits and I'm still a little confused. 

 

In the FSM playlist the following cues have mockups of dropped bars:

 

3m2 Are You a Jedi?

6m1 The Armies Face-Off

6m4 The Big Army

6m6 Up the Wire

6m7 The Great Duel

6m10 Blowups and the Death of Darth Maul

6m11 New End of Darth Maul

7m1 After the Victory

 

In the sheets the only two cues with a "New" designation are

6m11 New End of Darth Maul

7m2 New Augie's Great Municipal Band

 

I'm guessing these are actual written revisions before any bars were dropped.

 

However if I look at the recording session list we have I see the following:

 

6m1-N The Armies Face-Off

6m3 Take To Your Ships

6m3-N Take To Your Ships

7m1 After the Victory

7m1N-N After the Victory

 

 

So a bunch of cues got bars dropped without getting an N designation? And what about Take To Your Ships and After the Victory? Were both versions recorded if they're both in the list? Take To Your Ships is especially strange since the FSM playlist doesn't seem to account for the two versions

[Jay 37,346]

The N designation was not used for most of the times they simply dropped bars and never recorded them.

 

With regards to the cues you mentioned:

 

6M3 Take To Your Ships was recorded twice, JW revised the main melody of the cue to make it stronger the second time around, hence the N version.  IIRC in one of the sheet music images you can see the new melody written in a different color pencil or something

 

7M1 After The Victory was only recorded once.  The originally intended version had a big fanfaric opening passage that lasted 19 bars, but by the time the cue got to the recording stage, they re-recorded some bars from 3M2 instead of those 19 bars.  

[enderdrag64 624]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

6M3 Take To Your Ships was recorded twice, JW revised the main melody of the cue to make it stronger the second time around, hence the N version.  IIRC in one of the sheet music images you can see the new melody written in a different color pencil or something

So are these the two different versions you mention, or are they just different takes of the same version
 

 

 

[Giftheck 916]

The second is only partially the original version of that cue, the rest of it is the revised version. What's used of the original version in the second track is 0:00-0:10, 0:37-0:44, and 1:13-1:26.

 

We have material from the games that would actually cover 0:00-0:10, 0:33-0:58, and 1:12-end of that track. None of the material currently available through the video games, however, has the original melody that was revised.

 

Here's a quick-and-dirty piano rendition of the original melody:

 

 

And here's the revised version:

 

 

 

The sheet music for The Big Army also has the original melody and revisions to replace it with the newer version, though I haven't seen any evidence it was recorded with the original melody, just the revised one.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

11 minutes ago, Giftheck said:

Here's a quick-and-dirty piano rendition of the original melody:

 

 

What I find really odd about this is, having not heard the original melody until someone did a mockup a couple months ago, that is the EXACT melody I always whistled over that part whenever I listen to this cue. I still do to this day! We're talking years and years ago, so it's not like I heard another mockup as the sheets didn't leak for a long time.

[Giftheck 916]

47 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

What I find really odd about this is, having not heard the original melody until someone did a mockup a couple months ago, that is the EXACT melody I always whistled over that part whenever I listen to this cue. I still do to this day! We're talking years and years ago, so it's not like I heard another mockup as the sheets didn't leak for a long time.

 

The strange thing is even in the revised cue you can actually hear the horns doing the original melody at points.

[BrotherSound 2,242]

9 hours ago, Jay said:

7M1 After The Victory was only recorded once.  The originally intended version had a big fanfaric opening passage that lasted 19 bars, but by the time the cue got to the recording stage, they re-recorded some bars from 3M2 instead of those 19 bars.  

I’ve been holding out a tiny bit of hope the original 7M1 may have been recorded because the cue sheet lists a different, earlier date for it than 7M1 New. There’s no duration given, but that’s also true for a few cues that were definitely recorded, like 5M3 Insert.

[Jay 37,346]

I suppose anything is possible! But it hasn't turned up in any video games. 

[artguy360 1,843]

This thread is reminding me how incredible the action music in TPM is. JW seamlessly weaves in SW themes and short motifs with just awesome, agile action music.

[blondheim 1,157]

It’s the greatest Star Wars score. Fight me.

[MrJosh 892]

13 hours ago, Jay said:

I suppose anything is possible! But it hasn't turned up in any video games. 

Neither has that awesome original end of AOTC!

 

I'm thinking now about whether there are other cues from the prequels that we know were recorded but didn't show up in the games in any form....

[Giftheck 916]

2 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Neither has that awesome original end of AOTC!

 

I'm thinking now about whether there are other cues from the prequels that we know were recorded but didn't show up in the games in any form....

 

The original "Revenge of the Sith DVD Version" introduction hasn't. We only even know it was recorded thanks to If These Walls Could Sing.

[Faleel 5,345]

3 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Neither has that awesome original end of AOTC!

 

I'm thinking now about whether there are other cues from the prequels that we know were recorded but didn't show up in the games in any form....

Goodbye Old Friend original version

 

Revenge of the Sith alternate credits with Leia theme ending

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

5 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Neither has that awesome original end of AOTC!

 

I'm thinking now about whether there are other cues from the prequels that we know were recorded but didn't show up in the games in any form....

 

Let's not forget about the original AOTC Finale, before the Imperial March insert was recorded! 

 

EDIT: Turns out that's what you meant. But it's so important that I think it needs to be said twice!

[Jay 37,346]

4 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Neither has that awesome original end of AOTC!

 

1 minute ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Let's not forget about the original AOTC Finale, before the Imperial March insert was recorded! 

 

That's exactly what he meant.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

16 minutes ago, Jay said:

That's exactly what he meant.

 

Crap, I didn't see the word "original"! 

[enderdrag64 624]

Another question: Are there clean openings and endings available for the two parts of Laser Fight?

 

The FSM edit presents them just as one piece

 

 

 

 

[Jay 37,346]

Yes, bars 1-17 were recorded separately from bars 18-end

 

IIRC the clean opening / endings can be found in video game files

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Yep, they appear (mostly clean) in at least one of the games. I wasn't 100% sure at the time if they were meant to be separated, so I kept them as one cue. I'll have to update them either today or tomorrow when I have time.

 

On 21/01/2023 at 11:02 PM, Jay said:

Later, he recorded an OVERLAY (music meant to mixed over an already-recorded cue) titled 6M1X Randy's Forest Mist:

 

 

Now, are we positive it was meant to be overlaid onto the original section? Although it specifies 0:28 to 0:45, matching it up to the original version it doesn't mesh at all. It sounds a lot more natural when overlaid onto the percussion insert (plus it seems to have been recorded after that insert).

[Jay 37,346]

>shrug< All we know it what we can see with our eyes: it says "overlap bar 9 (6M1)" and "overlap bar 17 (6M1)".

 

I assume it means the original 6M1 and not the "6m1 Part 2" insert, which would probably "bar 1" and "bar 9", but I guess there's no way we can be sure >shrug<

[Faleel 5,345]

I think I have only ever heard it edited over the insert.

[Jay 37,346]

I guess come to think of it, the Insert was probably numbered bars 9 through bars 17 instead of bars 1-9, and so yea, it probably was written for the Insert

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Paired with the original version it starts to fall apart toward the end once the synth "shofar" ramps up.

 

 

 

 

[Jay 37,346]

Yea it sounds way better over the insert, for sure

 

I still find it so funny JW chose to release it on the OST all by itself

[Smeltington 1,438]

I'm SO glad he did, I love it by itself!

[Faleel 5,345]

3 minutes ago, Smeltington said:

I'm SO glad he did, I love it by itself!

I actually think it works better in its "new" context then the original!!

[enderdrag64 624]

2 minutes ago, Smeltington said:

I'm SO glad he did, I love it by itself!

I believe it was available by itself in a few games as well

[Smeltington 1,438]

I had to include it in my TPM edit, propriety be damned.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Now I'm also curious what the hell the story is about that short source cue in ROTS. All signs point to it not having been written by JW, so I've been scouring old Fox sound libraries recently trying to find anything pointing to where it might have originated.

[Faleel 5,345]

48 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Now I'm also curious what the hell the story is about that short source cue in ROTS. All signs point to it not having been written by JW, so I've been scouring old Fox sound libraries recently trying to find anything pointing to where it might have originated.

For the opera?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

8 minutes ago, Clockwork Angel said:

For the opera?

 

At the starts of the opera, yes. The one when Anakin is walking up the steps of the opera house, and it plays for like 5-10 seconds.

 

 

[artguy360 1,843]

16 hours ago, blondheim said:

It’s the greatest Star Wars score. Fight me.

I think it is the best prequel score with the most interesting underscore, best action music, but not quite the same emotional depth as ROTS. For me,.best SW.score still goes to ESB for a whole host of reasons. TPM is a great score though, and I wish the rest of the prequel trilogy had the same freshness and seamless underscore.

[Faleel 5,345]

ESB is GOAT, ROTS might be next in line, but AOTC has probably my favorite finale though

[blondheim 1,157]

The Phantom Menace is tops. Empire comes close and Star Wars is timeless but nothing touches Phantom. It opened the imagination in ways none of his other Star Wars scores come close to doing.

 

I think the Droid Battle should be talked about with the same reverence as Battle in the Snow.

[Bayesian 1,359]

On 21/1/2023 at 9:02 PM, Jay said:

Well, first, Williams wrote a cue called 6M1 The Armies Face-Off:

 

 

 

Very enlightening thread and a reminder of the wondrous sound that JW conjured for the prequels -- a soundworld that remains peerless even in his own body of work. But my eyes keep getting tripped up over the cue title.

 

I'm sorry, but is it supposed to be "The Armies Face Off" or "The Armies' Face-Off"? Is face off used in the noun or verb sense?? 'Cause it sure as shit can't be both at once.

 

Well, there you have it -- the only criticism toward JW I'll ever come up with.

[Jay 37,346]

The scan shows Pope wrote Face-Off, which could mean JW did too on his sketch (I have no idea).  But yes, proper grammar would be Face Off.