Thoughts on Natalie Holt Tweet

[backfromthedead 14]

Our dear friend Natalie tweeted this.  Curious to see how others react to it seeing that the Maestro is referenced in the tweet.

 

Another year and no female composers nominated. When will the landscape change and we hear some different voices coming through? #glassceiling #Oscars2023

 

https://twitter.com/filmmusicholt/status/1618016293877125122?cxt=HHwWhMC41eTPrPQsAAAA

[SpotTheDog 26]

It's not an ad hominem attack on John Williams.

 

I do personally think John Williams is the best composer in human history (because obviously I've heard them all, lol....), but I also think there are a lot of hacks who get employment and accolades just because they're men.

 

I think Natalie Holt is right, but the bigger issue is that more women can't be nominated if they're not hired, and it doesn't matter who goes to film school, Hollywood continues to favor (predominantly white) men as directors, composers, and other heads of department. I'm not sure how to break that glass ceiling, other than introducing quotas, which could be seen as condescending to some. 

 

At least the film industry isn't quite as toxic as the video game industry........

 

.......is it?

[HunterTech 684]

22 minutes ago, SpotTheDog said:

At least the film industry isn't quite as toxic as the video game industry........

 

.......is it?

 

Given what came of those infamous Zimmer Facebook posts with one composer alleging a lot of employees having to use pirated software because of the costs being out of their low pay grade (plus one former worker discussing very unfortunate occurrences when working with him before forcibly being let go), I can't imagine things are that much better, even with it seemingly managing to only avoid full blown sexual harassment (as far as we know, as I am just remembering Trevor Morris apparently being too open around his team).

 

I think with how much studios seem to really value the sound design side of modern film scoring, I can't be surprised that the most prominent female voice (Hildur Guðnadóttir) today really went full tilt with it in order to have any recognition (which even then wasn't enough for an Oscar nomination this time around with both her efforts last year). So whatever voices there are probably just aren't what Hollywood want (either that, or they just get pushed out even harder in this already ridiculously competitive market).

[SpotTheDog 26]

I was being somewhat facetious, but thank you for using that as a teachable moment, I learned a lot actually. 

[crumbs 12605]

I agree with her sentiment but it's probably poorly worded/timed. I'd love to see more female composers getting high-profile opportunities and the nominations should follow, but it's not really surprising that all 5 nominees are men when 13 of the 15 eligible scores were scored by men.

 

At the end of the day, most directors like working with established composers who are the best fit for their films, while studios want composers who can pump out scores fast and cheap (hence the Zimmer factory gaining so much traction). Ultimately the change needs to happen with the next generation of talent to ensure all composers have the best chance of success, regardless of gender.

 

I don't think Holt is saying women should be nominated for diversity's sake at the expense of "better" scores (this is subjective anyway), but we're also talking about a category that regularly features questionable nominees. Personally I would've nominated any of Black Panther, The Woman King, Pinocchio, A:TWOW or Glass Onion over All Quiet on the Western Front (which is little more than atmospheric droning) but Hollywood loves the "sound design" style of scoring nowadays, and the Academy love showering prestige films with token nominations in this category. Mercifully Tar was deemed ineligible!

[Joni Wiljami 1163]

Who?

[Edmilson 4497]

To be honest, I believe Hildur was snubbed this year. I thought she had a very big shot at getting a nomination this year for Women Talking. But then out of nowhere the Academy decided to give the nom to Son Lux and Volker Bertelmann. 

[bollemanneke 2870]

I don't like these statements. People should be nominated for what they did, not for who they are. We should absolutely have more female composers in high profile jobs, but this positive discrimination just doesn't work.

[Michael Grigorowitsch 367]

I generally agree, but consider she's a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.

[GerateWohl 2500]

I think, the nominations are not the real problem here. It is just the top of the iceberg.

If 20% of relevant composer jobs had been covvered by women, then it eally would be strange, that not at least 20% of the nominees are women. But as I highly doubt, that 20% of the jobs have been assigned to women,

Then the next question comes up: To cover 20% of the jobs, are really at least 20% of the volunteers for these jobs women? Or even more? If 50% of the composers in the market fighting for these jobs were women and not even 20% are getting them, that would be the real scandal. But probably nobody here has proper numbers on the matter. 

I understand, that this is kind of a hen egg issue. But it also might be the case, that the current nominees just represent the current ratio of female and male composers in the industry. And in that case I wouldn't see a discrimination in the nominations but somewhere long before in the foodchain.

Would be good to see more relevant numbers here.

 

[Thor 5793]

56 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

I don't like these statements. People should be nominated for what they did, not for who they are. We should absolutely have more female composers in high profile jobs, but this positive discrimination just doesn't work.

 

This.

[BB-8 1728]

I think only more creative output can counter such gender bias but not constant whining.

[Muad'Dib 1622]

6 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

I don't like these statements. People should be nominated for what they did, not for who they are. We should absolutely have more female composers in high profile jobs, but this positive discrimination just doesn't work.

 

I believe the point isn't that there SHOULD be a female composer nominated just because. It is quite a known fact that film-composing is mostly a "boy's club" thing, so women are getting far less opportunities in the field than men and that reflects itself on the nominations -even if such awards aren't really relevant anymore, but the Oscars are still the highest profile awards out there so it ends up being representative on some level of the status quo. 

 

That being sad, most of us here are guys so I don't know if we are really the best judges to comment on this highly complicated topic. 

[bollemanneke 2870]

Who knows. I don't understand why anyone still bothers with these oscars, though. I'm perfectly capable of deciding my favourite film or score of any year. 

[Disco Stu 15468]

1 minute ago, bollemanneke said:

The fact that Birdman was considered, or won, I don't remember, says all I need to know.

 

Of all the Best Picture winners I've seen, it's a toss-up between Birdman and American Beauty as my least favorite.  Awful movies.

[Andy 2204]

4 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Who knows. I don't understand why anyone still bothers with these oscars, though. I'm perfectly capable of deciding my favourite film or score of any year. 

 

I go back and forth.  So many Oscar wins are forgotten, lost to time.  But some of them aren't.  I guess to me it sometimes means something.  You want your person to win, right?  I think it's nifty that Ke Huy Quan comes back out of obscurity to get nominated.  I think it's cool that Williams is a record setter.  But the Academy is made of industry people who think differently than, well, just about anyone.  

 

Maybe we should just be glad that actual theatrical cinema is still being celebrated.  

 

By the way, Natalie Holt has a valid complaint, but it certainly isn't unique to show business, right?

 

So at the end of the day, it doesn't matter when your favorite gets snubbed, but it does when they win I suppose. (?) 

[Tydirium 841]

17 minutes ago, Muad'Dib said:

 

I believe the point isn't that there SHOULD be a female composer nominated just because. It is quite a known fact that film-composing is mostly a "boy's club" thing, so women are getting far less opportunities in the field than men and that reflects itself on the nominations -even if such awards aren't really relevant anymore, but the Oscars are still the highest profile awards out there so it ends up being representative on some level of the status quo. 

 

That being sad, most of us here are guys so I don't know if we are really the best judges to comment on this highly complicated topic. 

But @GerateWohl already addressed this point:

 

Quote

Then the next question comes up: To cover 20% of the jobs, are really at least 20% of the volunteers for these jobs women? Or even more? If 50% of the composers in the market fighting for these jobs were women and not even 20% are getting them, that would be the real scandal. 

How do we even know that such a significant amount of women are even trying to get these jobs/trying to break into this field? Is it really not possible that part of the reason film music tends to be a “boy’s club” is because… mostly “boys” are interested in it? I mean, there are definitely industries/jobs out there that seem more dominated by women (fashion, secretaries, nurses, babysitters/nannies, etc.). And there are even male-dominated jobs that I don’t see women complaining about lack of female representation (like garbage collection). There is nowhere near equal representation in any of those, but nobody really seems to care? Just because a field tends to be more favored/dominated by one gender, doesn’t necessarily mean that the other is actively being barred from entry.

[Disco Stu 15468]

There's a definitely a balance of recognizing that on average certain jobs appeal to men more than women temperamentally (and vice versa), while also not discouraging those that are the outliers of either sex.

[Marian Schedenig 6218]

22 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

Is it really not possible that part of the reason film music tends to be a “boy’s club” is because… mostly “boys” are interested in it?

 

It's possible, but at least part of it often comes down to bias - women being less interested in it either because they've been brought up to have different interests, or because they stand less of a chance of actually getting a good job in the field. Take programmers/software engineers for example (because that's my own job): Originally a "women's job", and yet in 25 years of work I've worked almost exclusively with men. I don't think it's a profession that's inherently uninteresting to most women, especially considering that one of its most prominent founders is a woman.

 

…and "classical composition" in general has always been a domain where those women who stood out were generally discouraged and forgotten - e.g. Fanny Hensel and Clara Schumann, just to name two of the most prominent examples, whose name most people know today, but whose works are still relatively obscure.

[GerateWohl 2500]

It is just important that no discrimination takes place to those who are talented and willing to do the job.

This is a place again for my favourite feminist quote: "There will be no equal rights for women before totaly uncapable women get into high positions."

When it comes to equal rights, almost everyone is willing to support the best and most talented. But if you look at reality, connections and relations play still a big role in a man's world.

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

"There will be no equal rights for women before totaly uncapable women get into high positions."

 

This was achieved when Holt scored Star Wars.

[Muad'Dib 1622]

1 hour ago, Marian Schedenig said:

…and "classical composition" in general has always been a domain where those women who stood out were generally discouraged and forgotten - e.g. Fanny Hensel and Clara Schumann, just to name two of the most prominent examples, whose name most people know today, but whose works are still relatively obscure.

 

In the world of classical music in particular, women for a really long time were not seen as composers -they could succeed by being players of certain types instruments: the piano, flute, harp and such... 

 

So the way I see it, and similarly to what others have adressed, imagine being a woman and wanting to pursue a carreer as a film composer, for example. This in a lot of enviroments gets quickly dismissed as "tradition" dictates composing is a man's job, whatever that means. 

People having their limits. If life constantly tells you you shouldn't be doing that job, for example, you will either keep going despite the odds or give up and seek something else. 

 

It's a complex subject and I think all of us are still learning about it. And we have a long way to go.

[Tydirium 841]

2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

It's possible, but at least part of it often comes down to bias - women being less interested in it either because they've been brought up to have different interests, or because they stand less of a chance of actually getting a good job in the field. Take programmers/software engineers for example (because that's my own job): Originally a "women's job", and yet in 25 years of work I've worked almost exclusively with men. I don't think it's a profession that's inherently uninteresting to most women, especially considering that one of its most prominent founders is a woman.

 

…and "classical composition" in general has always been a domain where those women who stood out were generally discouraged and forgotten - e.g. Fanny Hensel and Clara Schumann, just to name two of the most prominent examples, whose name most people know today, but whose works are still relatively obscure.

 

I understand your point, but I don't think women are really discouraged/intentionally left out when it comes to film music these days. I mean, the woman who made the Tweet that is the topic of this thread, just last year scored the highest-profile/most-anticipated Star Wars show of 2022. Heck, Hildur WON the Oscar for 2019, and Germaine Franco was nominated for 2021... In all honesty, part of me wonders at what point this whining is going to stop? Does it need to be an even 50/50 split between men and women? Do we need some sort of "reparations"/revenge period, with vastly more women than men being nominated/awarded? For all of the progress on this front in recent years, you would think such a Tweet wouldn't see the light of day, especially from Holt of all people.

[Stark 179]

If the nominations always went to the five best scores every year then I would definitely say this is an unwarranted complaint... but I don’t think the oscars normally nominate the best scores every year regardless of gender!

There certainly are not many successful female composers (and my favorite of recent times, Deborah Lurie, seems to be done with the industry for other reasons). By sheer mathematics I think most of the best scores will be by men as a result.

And I have no idea if there are so few female composers because proportionally few women apply, or because the industry shuts them out, or some combination thereof. I just want good music, I don’t care who composes it 

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

They should have a category for best gender.

[Marian Schedenig 6218]

2 hours ago, Tydirium said:

I understand your point, but I don't think women are really discouraged/intentionally left out when it comes to film music these days.

 

Are they though? Even in the most mainstream of all the award categories, namely actor & actress, women still face entirely different obstacles than men (for their work in general, not talking about awards here). Their choice of roles seriously narrows down above a certain age (it doesn't for men). The whole #metoo disaster didn't just go away with Weinstein. And from a quick Google search, the best paid actress of 2022 (Margot Robie) makes less than any of the 10 best paid actors.

 

As far as film music is concerned, I don't think we have that much insight. What's obvious is that there are much fewer active female than male composers, whatever the reason. Judging by the actors/actresses divide, I would surprise if that's entirely voluntary.

 

2 hours ago, Tydirium said:

I mean, the woman who made the Tweet that is the topic of this thread, just last year scored the highest-profile/most-anticipated Star Wars show of 2022. Heck, Hildur WON the Oscar for 2019, and Germaine Franco was nominated for 2021... In all honesty, part of me wonders at what point this whining is going to stop?

 

By any right, when chances are equal. One woman winning an Oscar and another one being nominated isn't nothing, and it doesn't make sense to artificially enforce* a 50/50 parity when the pool of available candidates isn't evenly distributed. But it's hardly an argument for equality when you compare it to the number of male winners and nominees.

 

*) Not that that's the point of every equality quote. In many cases the reason for them is that all else being equal, men still tend to get picked over women in many situations, and without anyone doing anything about it, little has changed and little will change. Quotas are not ideal, but things being what they are, they're often still the best and ultimately fairest measure rather than just saying fuck it, let's just keep everything as it has always been.

[JohnTheBaptist 47]

4 hours ago, Tydirium said:

But @GerateWohl already addressed this point:

 

How do we even know that such a significant amount of women are even trying to get these jobs/trying to break into this field? Is it really not possible that part of the reason film music tends to be a “boy’s club” is because… mostly “boys” are interested in it? I mean, there are definitely industries/jobs out there that seem more dominated by women (fashion, secretaries, nurses, babysitters/nannies, etc.). And there are even male-dominated jobs that I don’t see women complaining about lack of female representation (like garbage collection). There is nowhere near equal representation in any of those, but nobody really seems to care? Just because a field tends to be more favored/dominated by one gender, doesn’t necessarily mean that the other is actively being barred from entry.

Women were banned from becoming permanent members of major orchestras into the 1990s. Cultural change takes a long time. I'm surprised that so many people here could be so obtuse about the state of the music industry.

[Stark 179]

I see that Holt praised JW on the same topic today so she definitely didn’t mean to shade him.

 

[Jay 30970]

Wasn't it revealed that she never worked "with" him, just on the same project?

[Stark 179]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

Wasn't it revealed that she never worked "with" him, just on the same project?

Yeah, although she did use his theme at least briefly so that is a (middling) justification for the description.

[Tydirium 841]

8 minutes ago, Stark said:

I see that Holt praised JW on the same topic today so she definitely didn’t mean to shade him.

 

 

It's actually kind of cringey that she would say she worked with him, when the truth is that she really didn't...

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

She worked for him and had to download sample libraries illegally because JW only uses pencils and his imagination. 

[Disco Stu 15468]

11 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

 

It's actually kind of cringey that she would say she worked with him, when the truth is that she really didn't...

 

Stolen valor!

[Marian Schedenig 6218]

15 minutes ago, Jay said:

Wasn't it revealed that she never worked "with" him, just on the same project?

 

At least that they didn't compose together. Do we know though whether they had any contact on the project? Williams may have given her suggestions for using his themes, or perhaps even rules. That would be a very limited way of "working with" somebody, but it would qualify, and in her shoes I'd also consider it having worked with him to an extent, even if it's far from a full collaboration. (In other jobs, having a consultant come in and offer one hour of advice on a project would also be called "working with").

[A Farewell to Kings 3551]

11 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

 

It's actually kind of cringey that she would say she worked with him, when the truth is that she really didn't...

She was closer to working with him than I have ever been

[Jay 30970]

31 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

At least that they didn't compose together. Do we know though whether they had any contact on the project? Williams may have given her suggestions for using his themes, or perhaps even rules. That would be a very limited way of "working with" somebody, but it would qualify, and in her shoes I'd also consider it having worked with him to an extent, even if it's far from a full collaboration. (In other jobs, having a consultant come in and offer one hour of advice on a project would also be called "working with").

 

 

Thread 1

 

Thread 2

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

That you worked WITH someone could mean that you contributed on the same project.

[Disco Stu 15468]

And my memory is that most of the underscore that actually used Williams' theme was written by Ross, wasn't it?

[Marian Schedenig 6218]

17 minutes ago, Jay said:

You obviously didn't read the threads about the score as this all happened last year!

 

I did, and I remember that quote, but I didn't remember the exact wording. I agree that it doesn't sound like they had any direct contact at all.

 

(I haven't actually seen the show yet myself, so all I know is Williams's concert version of the theme)

[Jay 30970]

It was a pretty bad show

[Disco Stu 15468]

Sad but true.  There were parts that were ok on their own, and some ideas that were good in theory, but overall dramatically inert and fucked with the canon in baffling ways.

[Jay 30970]

28 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

There were parts that were ok on their own, and some ideas that were good in theory, but overall dramatically inert

 

Yep.

And also very forgettable, and the special effects were not that good.  They used that same Unreal Engine background thingy that The Mandalorian uses, but these guys used it poorly (while Mando uses it to great effect)

[Evanus 188]

Still annoyed by how crappy her score for Obi-Wan was. I hope they pick a better composer for Ahsoka :/

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

The score to Rogue One doesn't seem so bad no, eh?

[A Farewell to Kings 3551]

34 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Yep.

And also very forgettable, and the special effects were not that good.  They used that same Unreal Engine background thingy that The Mandalorian uses, but these guys used it poorly (while Mando uses it to great effect)

1M11 You mean, The Volume?

[Jay 30970]

sure

[Stark 179]

40 minutes ago, Evanus said:

Still annoyed by how crappy her score for Obi-Wan was. I hope they pick a better composer for Ahsoka :/

I’m expecting Kiner, since Ahsoka is going to be Filoni’s big show - which will be a fine choice since most of Kiner’s recent music has been solid.

[Jay 30970]

I just assumed Göransson/Shirley were doing it

[Muad'Dib 1622]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Wasn't it revealed that she never worked "with" him, just on the same project?

 

PR.

[Marian Schedenig 6218]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

It was a pretty bad show

 

So I've heard. I haven't yet watched Andor either though.