Jump to content

Thoughts on Natalie Holt Tweet


backfromthedead

Recommended Posts

Our dear friend Natalie tweeted this.  Curious to see how others react to it seeing that the Maestro is referenced in the tweet.

 

Another year and no female composers nominated. When will the landscape change and we hear some different voices coming through? #glassceiling #Oscars2023

 

https://twitter.com/filmmusicholt/status/1618016293877125122?cxt=HHwWhMC41eTPrPQsAAAA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be honest, I believe Hildur was snubbed this year. I thought she had a very big shot at getting a nomination this year for Women Talking. But then out of nowhere the Academy decided to give the nom to Son Lux and Volker Bertelmann. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, bollemanneke said:

The fact that Birdman was considered, or won, I don't remember, says all I need to know.

 

Of all the Best Picture winners I've seen, it's a toss-up between Birdman and American Beauty as my least favorite.  Awful movies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Who knows. I don't understand why anyone still bothers with these oscars, though. I'm perfectly capable of deciding my favourite film or score of any year. 

 

I go back and forth.  So many Oscar wins are forgotten, lost to time.  But some of them aren't.  I guess to me it sometimes means something.  You want your person to win, right?  I think it's nifty that Ke Huy Quan comes back out of obscurity to get nominated.  I think it's cool that Williams is a record setter.  But the Academy is made of industry people who think differently than, well, just about anyone.  

 

Maybe we should just be glad that actual theatrical cinema is still being celebrated.  

 

By the way, Natalie Holt has a valid complaint, but it certainly isn't unique to show business, right?

 

So at the end of the day, it doesn't matter when your favorite gets snubbed, but it does when they win I suppose. (?) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Muad'Dib said:

 

I believe the point isn't that there SHOULD be a female composer nominated just because. It is quite a known fact that film-composing is mostly a "boy's club" thing, so women are getting far less opportunities in the field than men and that reflects itself on the nominations -even if such awards aren't really relevant anymore, but the Oscars are still the highest profile awards out there so it ends up being representative on some level of the status quo. 

 

That being sad, most of us here are guys so I don't know if we are really the best judges to comment on this highly complicated topic. 


But @GerateWohl already addressed this point:

 

Quote

Then the next question comes up: To cover 20% of the jobs, are really at least 20% of the volunteers for these jobs women? Or even more? If 50% of the composers in the market fighting for these jobs were women and not even 20% are getting them, that would be the real scandal. 


How do we even know that such a significant amount of women are even trying to get these jobs/trying to break into this field? Is it really not possible that part of the reason film music tends to be a “boy’s club” is because… mostly “boys” are interested in it? I mean, there are definitely industries/jobs out there that seem more dominated by women (fashion, secretaries, nurses, babysitters/nannies, etc.). And there are even male-dominated jobs that I don’t see women complaining about lack of female representation (like garbage collection). There is nowhere near equal representation in any of those, but nobody really seems to care? Just because a field tends to be more favored/dominated by one gender, doesn’t necessarily mean that the other is actively being barred from entry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a definitely a balance of recognizing that on average certain jobs appeal to men more than women temperamentally (and vice versa), while also not discouraging those that are the outliers of either sex.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is just important that no discrimination takes place to those who are talented and willing to do the job.

This is a place again for my favourite feminist quote: "There will be no equal rights for women before totaly uncapable women get into high positions."

When it comes to equal rights, almost everyone is willing to support the best and most talented. But if you look at reality, connections and relations play still a big role in a man's world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

It's possible, but at least part of it often comes down to bias - women being less interested in it either because they've been brought up to have different interests, or because they stand less of a chance of actually getting a good job in the field. Take programmers/software engineers for example (because that's my own job): Originally a "women's job", and yet in 25 years of work I've worked almost exclusively with men. I don't think it's a profession that's inherently uninteresting to most women, especially considering that one of its most prominent founders is a woman.

 

…and "classical composition" in general has always been a domain where those women who stood out were generally discouraged and forgotten - e.g. Fanny Hensel and Clara Schumann, just to name two of the most prominent examples, whose name most people know today, but whose works are still relatively obscure.

 

I understand your point, but I don't think women are really discouraged/intentionally left out when it comes to film music these days. I mean, the woman who made the Tweet that is the topic of this thread, just last year scored the highest-profile/most-anticipated Star Wars show of 2022. Heck, Hildur WON the Oscar for 2019, and Germaine Franco was nominated for 2021... In all honesty, part of me wonders at what point this whining is going to stop? Does it need to be an even 50/50 split between men and women? Do we need some sort of "reparations"/revenge period, with vastly more women than men being nominated/awarded? For all of the progress on this front in recent years, you would think such a Tweet wouldn't see the light of day, especially from Holt of all people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the nominations always went to the five best scores every year then I would definitely say this is an unwarranted complaint... but I don’t think the oscars normally nominate the best scores every year regardless of gender!

There certainly are not many successful female composers (and my favorite of recent times, Deborah Lurie, seems to be done with the industry for other reasons). By sheer mathematics I think most of the best scores will be by men as a result.

And I have no idea if there are so few female composers because proportionally few women apply, or because the industry shuts them out, or some combination thereof. I just want good music, I don’t care who composes it :banghead:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Tydirium said:

I understand your point, but I don't think women are really discouraged/intentionally left out when it comes to film music these days.

 

Are they though? Even in the most mainstream of all the award categories, namely actor & actress, women still face entirely different obstacles than men (for their work in general, not talking about awards here). Their choice of roles seriously narrows down above a certain age (it doesn't for men). The whole #metoo disaster didn't just go away with Weinstein. And from a quick Google search, the best paid actress of 2022 (Margot Robie) makes less than any of the 10 best paid actors.

 

As far as film music is concerned, I don't think we have that much insight. What's obvious is that there are much fewer active female than male composers, whatever the reason. Judging by the actors/actresses divide, I would surprise if that's entirely voluntary.

 

2 hours ago, Tydirium said:

I mean, the woman who made the Tweet that is the topic of this thread, just last year scored the highest-profile/most-anticipated Star Wars show of 2022. Heck, Hildur WON the Oscar for 2019, and Germaine Franco was nominated for 2021... In all honesty, part of me wonders at what point this whining is going to stop?

 

By any right, when chances are equal. One woman winning an Oscar and another one being nominated isn't nothing, and it doesn't make sense to artificially enforce* a 50/50 parity when the pool of available candidates isn't evenly distributed. But it's hardly an argument for equality when you compare it to the number of male winners and nominees.

 

*) Not that that's the point of every equality quote. In many cases the reason for them is that all else being equal, men still tend to get picked over women in many situations, and without anyone doing anything about it, little has changed and little will change. Quotas are not ideal, but things being what they are, they're often still the best and ultimately fairest measure rather than just saying fuck it, let's just keep everything as it has always been.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Tydirium said:


But @GerateWohl already addressed this point:

 


How do we even know that such a significant amount of women are even trying to get these jobs/trying to break into this field? Is it really not possible that part of the reason film music tends to be a “boy’s club” is because… mostly “boys” are interested in it? I mean, there are definitely industries/jobs out there that seem more dominated by women (fashion, secretaries, nurses, babysitters/nannies, etc.). And there are even male-dominated jobs that I don’t see women complaining about lack of female representation (like garbage collection). There is nowhere near equal representation in any of those, but nobody really seems to care? Just because a field tends to be more favored/dominated by one gender, doesn’t necessarily mean that the other is actively being barred from entry.

Women were banned from becoming permanent members of major orchestras into the 1990s. Cultural change takes a long time. I'm surprised that so many people here could be so obtuse about the state of the music industry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

Wasn't it revealed that she never worked "with" him, just on the same project?

Yeah, although she did use his theme at least briefly so that is a (middling) justification for the description.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Stark said:

I see that Holt praised JW on the same topic today so she definitely didn’t mean to shade him.

 

 

It's actually kind of cringey that she would say she worked with him, when the truth is that she really didn't...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Jay said:

Wasn't it revealed that she never worked "with" him, just on the same project?

 

At least that they didn't compose together. Do we know though whether they had any contact on the project? Williams may have given her suggestions for using his themes, or perhaps even rules. That would be a very limited way of "working with" somebody, but it would qualify, and in her shoes I'd also consider it having worked with him to an extent, even if it's far from a full collaboration. (In other jobs, having a consultant come in and offer one hour of advice on a project would also be called "working with").

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

At least that they didn't compose together. Do we know though whether they had any contact on the project? Williams may have given her suggestions for using his themes, or perhaps even rules. That would be a very limited way of "working with" somebody, but it would qualify, and in her shoes I'd also consider it having worked with him to an extent, even if it's far from a full collaboration. (In other jobs, having a consultant come in and offer one hour of advice on a project would also be called "working with").

 

image.png

 

Thread 1

 

Thread 2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Jay said:

You obviously didn't read the threads about the score as this all happened last year!

 

I did, and I remember that quote, but I didn't remember the exact wording. I agree that it doesn't sound like they had any direct contact at all.

 

(I haven't actually seen the show yet myself, so all I know is Williams's concert version of the theme)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Yep.


And also very forgettable, and the special effects were not that good.  They used that same Unreal Engine background thingy that The Mandalorian uses, but these guys used it poorly (while Mando uses it to great effect)

1M11 You mean, The Volume?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Evanus said:

Still annoyed by how crappy her score for Obi-Wan was. I hope they pick a better composer for Ahsoka :/

I’m expecting Kiner, since Ahsoka is going to be Filoni’s big show - which will be a fine choice since most of Kiner’s recent music has been solid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.