Thoughts on Natalie Holt Tweet

[Jay 30970]

Andor is amazing, one of the best shows of 2022

[Tydirium 841]

1 hour ago, Stark said:

I’m expecting Kiner, since Ahsoka is going to be Filoni’s big show - which will be a fine choice since most of Kiner’s recent music has been solid.

I really hope so.

[enderdrag64 311]

1 hour ago, Evanus said:

Still annoyed by how crappy her score for Obi-Wan was. I hope they pick a better composer for Ahsoka :/

Honestly I don't think the music direction was her fault, blame the showrunners. She's done some fine work in the past and she even said in interviews all her classic-sounding themes were rejected 

[Disco Stu 15468]

I don't listen to her Loki scores on their own, but it was definitely a far far superior effort to Obi-Wan and definitely enhanced the show.

[Datameister 1650]

I've listened to neither one alone, but I thought Loki was stronger too. (Show and score.)

[Tallguy 1514]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

The score to Rogue One doesn't seem so bad no, eh?

 

Never did.

[King Mark 3182]

18 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

I don't like these statements. People should be nominated for what they did, not for who they are. 

 Agreed

[igger6 758]

4 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

She even said in interviews all her classic-sounding themes were rejected 

I hadn’t heard that before. Do you have a source?

[enderdrag64 311]

3 hours ago, igger6 said:

I hadn’t heard that before. Do you have a source?

 

[Bryant Burnette 542]

I don't think there should be a push to nominate more female composers, but there should be a massive push to get more females composing jobs in the first place.  That's always been too much of a boys' club.  Take care of that, and the nominations will follow.

[rough cut 1401]

Boys’ club, women’s jobs… it’s a tricky topic. 
 

When it comes to composing - or any other work that depends on mental capacity - I really don’t think that the quality of the output depends on the gender. But to cry wolf because there are less women that do a certain type of job is not as simple as it seems.

 

Especially since it’s proven that the more ‘gender equal’ a country is, the more men and women actually tend to seek out ‘gender stereotypical’ jobs.

 

Quote

Last year, researchers in the US and UK found that countries with an existing culture of gender equality have an even smaller proportion of women taking degrees in science, technology and mathematics (STEM).

 

”It is a paradox … nobody would have expected this to be the reality of our time,” says Professor Gijsbert Stoet, one of the report’s authors.

 

He argues that since Nordic countries have a generally high standard of living and strong welfare states, young women are free to pick careers based on their own interests, which he says are often more likely to include working in care-giving roles or with languages. By contrast, high achievers in less stable economies might choose STEM careers based on the income and security they provide, even if they prefer other areas.

 

“Girls and boys are different, and have different preferences on the whole,” he argues. He believes too much media focus is placed on the lack of women in CEO positions, since these account for such a small proportion of jobs overall, and suggests that more men fill these roles since “the personality traits and ambition to be important and famous is higher in men than women”.

 

www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190831-the-paradox-of-working-in-the-worlds-most-equal-countries

 

Quote

A longstanding body of research has consistently shown that men and women tend to aspire toward different vocations. In general, men tend to prefer jobs dealing with things while women typically prefer jobs dealing with people. The "gender equality paradox" notes that in countries like Iceland, which are highly gender-equal, sex-typical job preferences tend to increase.

 

https://bigthink.com/the-present/gender-equality-paradox/

Of course, this becomes very controversial because it goes against the very popular narrative of our time that men and women ‘must’ be equal and consequentially ‘must’ have the same passions and inclinations in life.

 

Let as many men and women as they want be composers - and let the market decide who is successful (i.e. is able to get hired) and who’s not - and that’s that. If it ends up being 1/3 women - or 2/3 for that matter - where’s the fault in that?

 

If the output then is equal interms of quality (and again, why shouldn’t it be?), it should follow that nominations between men and women will be - more or less - divided in similar proportions as the work space.

[Holko 8018]

3 hours ago, Bryant Burnette said:

I don't think there should be a push to nominate more female composers, but there should be a massive push to get more females composing jobs in the first place.  That's always been too much of a boys' club.  Take care of that, and the nominations will follow.

Not that I really agree with it being the right way, but there's certainly a way of thinking in there somewhere that says if the playing field is misrepresented through diversity quotas, then younger people will see it's not just a "boys' club" anymore and they'll be more motivated to join.

...or they just want to see results today instead of a generation or 2 from now so they can pat themselves on the back before they have to wear diapers.

[King Mark 3182]

It takes a natural talent and a lifetime of dedication to become a good music composer. Not sure you can push any specific people in that direction even if you encourage them. Maybe mostly men found a path into this career for whatever reasons that aren't related to sexism ?

 

Holts tweet sounds like a feminist rant trying to blame that no woman were nominated because they were discriminated against instead of none of their score being good enough this year. It's the same thing Natalie Portman did on stage a few years ago for the Best Director category. 

 

But on the other hand , lots of men get nominated for scores that don't deserve it because of the hype or subject matter of the movie it's attached to, so the music score category always seems heavily biased. And if the actual best composition won JW would have about 25 Oscars

[Jay 30970]

2 hours ago, King Mark said:

if the actual best composition won JW would have about 25 Oscars

YES

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

26

[Muad'Dib 1622]

8 hours ago, King Mark said:

Maybe mostly men found a path into this career for whatever reasons that aren't related to sexism ?

 

[Tydirium 841]

4 hours ago, Muad'Dib said:

 

 

So do you also believe that sexism against men is the reason why mostly women found a path into being speech language pathologists, childcare workers, dietitians/nutritionists, cleaners, clerical workers, health professionals, etc.?

[Muad'Dib 1622]

37 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

 

So do you also believe that sexism against men is the reason why mostly women found a path into being speech language pathologists, childcare workers, dietitians/nutritionists, cleaners, clerical workers, health professionals, etc.?

 

Sexism against men?

 

...what

[JohnTheBaptist 47]

16 hours ago, rough cut said:

Boys’ club, women’s jobs… it’s a tricky topic. 
 

When it comes to composing - or any other work that depends on mental capacity - I really don’t think that the quality of the output depends on the gender. But to cry wolf because there are less women that do a certain type of job is not as simple as it seems.

 

Especially since it’s proven that the more ‘gender equal’ a country is, the more men and women actually tend to seek out ‘gender stereotypical’ jobs.

 

 

Of course, this becomes very controversial because it goes against the very popular narrative of our time that men and women ‘must’ be equal and consequentially ‘must’ have the same passions and inclinations in life.

 

Let as many men and women as they want be composers - and let the market decide who is successful (i.e. is able to get hired) and who’s not - and that’s that. If it ends up being 1/3 women - or 2/3 for that matter - where’s the fault in that?

 

If the output then is equal interms of quality (and again, why shouldn’t it be?), it should follow that nominations between men and women will be - more or less - divided in similar proportions as the work space.

The same "market" that decided black people could be bought and sold as property?

[Disco Stu 15468]

Actually no, that was a different market.  Dumbass.

[Bellosh 1718]

3 hours ago, Tydirium said:

 

So do you also believe that sexism against men is the reason why mostly women found a path into being speech language pathologists, childcare workers, dietitians/nutritionists, cleaners, clerical workers, health professionals, etc.?

 

Not a totally fair comparison. Men aren't being held back in any of those if they were to pursue in greater numbers.

Which is the point.

[Tydirium 841]

3 hours ago, Muad'Dib said:

 

Sexism against men?

 

...what

 

What do you mean, "what"? And you don't seem to be getting my point.

 

55 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

Not a totally fair comparison. Men aren't being held back in any of those if they were to pursue in greater numbers.

Which is the point.

 

What? You don't have to look far on the Internet to find numerous examples of men/teen guys who, for instance, have wanted to make extra money babysitting, but weren't able to since that's a "girl's" job. Even so, there is admittedly not much holding men back, just as there is not much really holding back women composers in film music—as evidenced by the fact that the maker of the Tweet in question scored Loki and Kenobi, another woman won the Oscar for 2019, another was nominated for the Oscar in 2021, another scored an MCU film (Captain Marvel) in 2019, etc.

[Bellosh 1718]

Really? You're cherry picking "babysitting"

 

Jesus fucking christ. 

 

No shit there are professions that will favor a certain sex 

 

Woman are more nurturing than men. Who would have thought!!!??? 😂

[Marian Schedenig 6218]

35 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

What? You don't have to look far on the Internet to find numerous examples of men/teen guys who, for instance, have wanted to make extra money babysitting, but weren't able to since that's a "girl's" job.

 

Which, at least according to my impression, is primarily a male stigma. I don't think it's usual for men not getting jobs as head nurses because it's deemed to complicated and requiring too much experience - which are exactly the reasons that have just been cited for why still not a single woman has been invited to conduct the Wiener Philharmoniker's New Year's Concert.

[A Farewell to Kings 3551]

1 hour ago, Tydirium said:

 

there is admittedly not much holding men back, just as there is not much really holding back women composers in film music—as evidenced by the fact that the maker of the Tweet in question scored Loki and Kenobi, another woman won the Oscar for 2019, another was nominated for the Oscar in 2021, another scored an MCU film (Captain Marvel) in 2019, etc.

Because it was being pushed for.

[The Lost Folio 88]

As a musician, I constantly see young female composers struggling to get the same level of attention and recognition as their male peers, even when their abilities are similar or higher. That's true at every level, from elementary lessons all the way up to professional jobs. Those in this forum who pretend that composition is a man's job couldn't be more wrong! There are hundreds of amazing female composers right now who create wonderful music in all styles and genres. When I teach 20th century music, I include roughly 50% of works by female composers, not because I want it to be equal, but because there are that many exciting female composers that need to be talked about! The problem is that aspiring female composers still have very few models they can look up to and be inspired from. And so, they either give up, or lack the support to continue. When we finally recognize it, as musicians and/or audiences, then these composers' music will be able to be heard like it deserves to.

[Drew 557]

They should have hired Natalie Holt to score half of Obi-Wan instead of her male assistants.

[enderdrag64 311]

1 hour ago, Drew said:

They should have hired Natalie Holt to score half of Obi-Wan instead of her male assistants.

Yeah that's a really good point actually.  I honestly wonder how much of the score was even hers - between half (or more) of her themes being rejected, Williams' theme being thrown on her after her score was in progress/near completion, William Ross stepping in to do/redo half the show, and her 3 (!) additional composers doing some unknown percentage of her half of the music .

 

I think if she was given more control it probably would've turned out better 

[GerateWohl 2500]

5 hours ago, The Lost Folio said:

As a musician, I constantly see young female composers struggling to get the same level of attention and recognition as their male peers, even when their abilities are similar or higher. That's true at every level, from elementary lessons all the way up to professional jobs. Those in this forum who pretend that composition is a man's job couldn't be more wrong! There are hundreds of amazing female composers right now who create wonderful music in all styles and genres. When I teach 20th century music, I include roughly 50% of works by female composers, not because I want it to be equal, but because there are that many exciting female composers that need to be talked about! The problem is that aspiring female composers still have very few models they can look up to and be inspired from. And so, they either give up, or lack the support to continue. When we finally recognize it, as musicians and/or audiences, then these composers' music will be able to be heard like it deserves to.

At last some first hand substance to the discussion. Thank you.

On 27/01/2023 at 5:11 AM, rough cut said:

In general, men tend to prefer jobs dealing with things while women typically prefer jobs dealing with people. 

That just explains why jobs dealing with things are usually paid better than jobs dealing with people.

[Bryant Burnette 542]

6 hours ago, The Lost Folio said:

As a musician, I constantly see young female composers struggling to get the same level of attention and recognition as their male peers, even when their abilities are similar or higher. That's true at every level, from elementary lessons all the way up to professional jobs. Those in this forum who pretend that composition is a man's job couldn't be more wrong! There are hundreds of amazing female composers right now who create wonderful music in all styles and genres. When I teach 20th century music, I include roughly 50% of works by female composers, not because I want it to be equal, but because there are that many exciting female composers that need to be talked about! The problem is that aspiring female composers still have very few models they can look up to and be inspired from. And so, they either give up, or lack the support to continue. When we finally recognize it, as musicians and/or audiences, then these composers' music will be able to be heard like it deserves to.

 

 

Judging from some of the asinine comments I've read, there are probably several people here who interpret this to be proof of sexism against men.

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

20th century music is soo previous millennium. 

[Disco Stu 15468]

There aren’t hundreds of amazing composers of either sex alive today 

[Stark 179]

7 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

Yeah that's a really good point actually.  I honestly wonder how much of the score was even hers - between half (or more) of her themes being rejected, Williams' theme being thrown on her after her score was in progress/near completion, William Ross stepping in to do/redo half the show, and her 3 (!) additional composers doing some unknown percentage of her half of the music .

 

I think if she was given more control it probably would've turned out better 

Yep - as much as I dislike much of Holt’s side of the Kenobi score, it’s not her fault.

[King Mark 3182]

Maybe men tend (not absolute) to be more suited for composing music because of some biological differences in the brain between men and women. Both sexes have tasks they are better at and maybe moving notes around on a sheet of paper is one of these things men do better naturally.

 

oh no, what an asinine, bigoted comment to make in 2023. Burn the witch.

 

[HunterTech 684]

12 minutes ago, King Mark said:

Maybe men tend to be more suited for composing music because of some biological differences in the brain between the sexes. Both men and woman have tasks they are better at and maybe moving notes around on a sheet of paper is one of these things men do better naturally.

 

oh no, what an asinine, bigoted comment to make in 2023. Burn the witch.

 

Say, who was it that was rumored to have heavily helped Elfman (who definitely was much less musically illiterate then) on his mainstream breakthrough with Batman 89? I see some schmoe named Steven Scott Smalley was involved, and Steve Bartek was there from the beginning with Oingo Boingo, but I heard of someone else too?

 

Shirley Walker? I think I saw her name on a few early HZ scores. Couldn't be her.

[King Mark 3182]

Sure, that's possible .There's some scores composed by women I like, such a Taken by Laura Karpman... that has a JW vibe to it.

 

Isn't is known some composers like Danny Elfman and David Arnold can't really arrange their own music?

[HunterTech 684]

Yeah, that's always the tricky part about not knowing the whole composing process, isn't it? I remember seeing a post on filmtracks about how Arnold has suffered without Nicholas Dodd in his more recent projects. And someone would've talked to me about some featurette where Chris Young talking to some arranger or orchestrator, and how some misinterpreted it by thinking it meant CY doesn't actually write much in his projects from what was being said. There's only so much we can say without actually being there ourselves.

 

Batman 89 probably isn't a great example, since it ultimately remains a rumor despite there being more written about it now than when it was newer. I certainly think its very plausible, as its definitely very distinct in areas compared to what would come afterwards (especially with Returns being much more of the gothic fantasy sound he'd get famous with in his Burton collaborations).

[Romão 2066]

3 hours ago, HunterTech said:

Yeah, that's always the tricky part about not knowing the whole composing process, isn't it? I remember seeing a post on filmtracks about how Arnold has suffered without Nicholas Dodd in his more recent projects. And someone would've talked to me about some featurette where Chris Young talking to some arranger or orchestrator, and how some misinterpreted it by thinking it meant CY doesn't actually write much in his projects from what was being said. There's only so much we can say without actually being there ourselves.

 

Batman 89 probably isn't a great example, since it ultimately remains a rumor despite there being more written about it now than when it was newer. I certainly think its very plausible, as its definitely very distinct in areas compared to what would come afterwards (especially with Returns being much more of the gothic fantasy sound he'd get famous with in his Burton collaborations).

 

There are is a definitive common thread between the music of the 89 Batman and the Batman The Animated Series by Shirley Walker, but I'm never sure whereas the 89 sound is due to Walker's involvement or if she did a conscious effort to channel Elfman's 89 Batman sonority in her music for the Animated Series. Probably a bit of both

[Indianagirl 250]

As a female I'm so tired of this "when is it our time" stuff. Do better. 

[HunterTech 684]

5 minutes ago, Indianagirl said:

Do better. 

 

Do what better? Because if you mean at being a composer, I don't think Hollywood has cared about quality for a while if they have mostly relied on a "factory" for all the "grunt" work the previous decade.

[Indianagirl 250]

I meant it in two regards. One become better at composing and two stop whining. Everyone today just whines. 

[Not Mr. Big 4047]

I think most of the blame for poor film music comes from directors'/producers' music taste.  No matter how skilled you are, you can't beat the Dunkirk temp track.  

 

[Muad'Dib 1622]

5 hours ago, King Mark said:

Maybe men tend (not absolute) to be more suited for composing music because of some biological differences in the brain between men and women. Both sexes have tasks they are better at and maybe moving notes around on a sheet of paper is one of these things men do better naturally.

 

oh no, what an asinine, bigoted comment to make in 2023. Burn the witch.

 

 

Why would composing music have any biological determination? It's not really a natural thing per se, for starters.

 

I feel like you're trying to find every other explanation possible except the number one that's it's rooted in society and culture. I don't think biology plays any part in the arts, except maybe in the physical aspect. 

[King Mark 3182]

Why not , it's sort of technical requiring good spatial abilities like solving a puzzle. I mean there could be other reasons than sexism and discrimination.

[A Farewell to Kings 3551]

I have been encouraging my sister to write music, she has 200% the dedication to music I have practicing around 5-7 hours a day for a while to play her instrument.

[Datameister 1650]

1 hour ago, Muad'Dib said:

 

Why would composing music have any biological determination? It's not really a natural thing per se, for starters.

 

I feel like you're trying to find every other explanation possible except the number one that's it's rooted in society and culture. I don't think biology plays any part in the arts, except maybe in the physical aspect. 

 

I'd dispute the idea that composition is unnatural. Music seems to go back at least as far as language, and for as long as it's been around, there have been people to dream up the sounds.

 

That said, I'm aware of zero evidence that men are somehow more biologically predisposed to write music.

[HunterTech 684]

You couldn't dispute Paul McCartney getting the melody of Yesterday in a dream, as his dedication to the craft for decades since is enough to prove that music is a very natural language to him.

 

But of course, there's also a beauty in seeing someone get better in their craft. John Powell in particular had a good display of potential from his early MV days, with efforts like Paycheck and X3 showing a lot of advancement in a relatively short amount of time. But of course he wouldn't really get to properly show off until HTTYD, which cemented his status as a beloved composer. Comparatively, his teammates get nowhere close, barring the odd effort here and there.

 

I guess the ultimate point is the message of Ratatouille, where not everyone can be a great composer, but a great composer can come from just about anywhere. Which I guess fits to mention here, because I'm sure we'll have a phenomenal mainstream female composer once we get past what I would charitably consider the growing pains.

[Bryant Burnette 542]

2 hours ago, King Mark said:

Why not , it's sort of technical requiring good spatial abilities like solving a puzzle. I mean there could be other reasons than sexism and discrimination.

 

Women can't solve puzzles and/or have poor spatial abilities?

[rough cut 1401]

I tried to find some actual scientific research on the skewed distribution between male and female composers, but it’s hard to find research on contemporary composers. Early search results looked promising, for example a thesis written in 1988 by Elizabeth A. Flynn, called “Composing as a woman” but it turned out to be about the English language - not music!

 

Then there’s a lot on the history of western music and why there are so many male composers. Even though this doesn’t answer the immediate question, it’s still important since it gives us historical context. So, for example:

 

Classic FM: “Women compose only 5 percent of the pieces scheduled in classical music concerts today”

 

The Guardian: “Women composers: why are so many voices still silent?”

I think an answer on Quora summed it up nicely: “Long story short, sexism, restrictive gender roles, the interruption of pregnancies and household tasks, and money were all working against the vast majority of women who might have wanted to compose music and be taken seriously until fairly recently. Being a published composer required mentorship, time, and patronage that the vast majority of women did not have access to for most of history.”

Moving on, I also found a thesis called “Can we hear a difference between female and male composers and performers?” and even though the study group seems way to small to actually have any academic value, it’s still interesting to find that the answer is no.

But then I found something interesting, a study done in 2017 called “Why are there so few women screen composers?” It mentions the usual suspects about sexism, that it’s a boys’ club, and the fact that maternity for a woman is often a hinderance in a way that it isn’t for a man.

 

And then - in my opinion - it rushes over the most interesting fact, which is added almost as an afterthought:

 

Quote

We also found that far fewer women than men are enrolling in higher education courses related to screen composition. Education institutions we consulted reported around one-tenth to one-third of their students were female. This appears to be related to the wider issue of women’s relationship with technology, as many of the courses related to screen composition were tech-focused.

 

The import takeaway here is that only 10-33 % of the students studying film music composition are women.
 

The paragraph makes it sound as if it’s the fault of a sexist society that there aren’t more women in the courses related to film music.
 

But add this to the fact that in gender equal countries men and women generally tend to seek out gender stereotypical jobs. Nobody is forcing anybody to do that, it is free of will. (Didn’t read the links in my previous post? It’s super interesting and very relevant.) 

 

Also, let’s keep in mind that, in general, more women than men go to university (source: BBC).

 

So, when it comes down to composing for the screen, how will women enter the work force if they haven’t got the relevant education for it? They won’t, it’s as simple as that.

Why aren’t there more female composers today? My conclusion is that it certainly has nothing to do with musical ability and it doesn’t seem to be about sexism. It seems more to have to do about the fact that women simply aren’t drawn to composing for the screen as a trade, to the same extent as men are.

[HunterTech 684]

Really interesting write up! It doesn't surprise me much, cause it does seem to me like basically only males have any interest in the genre (barring some exceptions, of course), since that's a bulk of who I've talked to about it. Which I guess makes the initial tweet a bit curious, as if Holt seems to know enough women that'd be interested, yet it doesn't appear enough to change up the statistics. Might be worth doing a new study regarding it, with more recent variables in mind.