Thoughts on Natalie Holt Tweet

[crumbs 12605]

11 minutes ago, rough cut said:

Why aren’t there more female composers today? My conclusion is that it certainly has nothing to do with musical ability and it doesn’t seem to be about sexism. It seems more to have to do about the fact that women simply aren’t drawn to composing for the screen as a trade, to the same extent as men are.

 

Is it the same case for screenwriting then? Because one woman has been nominated for Best Original Screenplay in the last 3 years (she won, go figure) against 19 men in the same period.

 

In the decade prior, 62 men were nominated compared to 9 women.

 

So while I'm intrigued by the argument that women simply aren't interested in film music, I find it hard to believe so few women are interested in writing, considering the plethora of female authors out there! A recent study indicates that 24% of published books are written by women, yet female writers on Hollywood movies only just increased to 4%.

 

The further you dig on this topic, the clearer it becomes there's an industry-wide bias here... it isn't exclusive to film music.

[Luke Skywalker 1440]

It's just a matter of time. Women seem to be better at studying, now that society really lets them do it. As mentioned before nowadays more females go to university. In veterinary science for example, i have seen that now there is almost 90% females. In one decade it will be rare to see a young male veterinarian, and when all old males retire, you would hardly see a man on the job.

 

Maybe forcing equality now with quotas can only slow than trend as males could feel threatened and try to ralentise it...

 

 

[rough cut 1401]

 

19 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Is it the same case for screenwriting then? Because one woman has been nominated for Best Original Screenplay in the last 3 years (she won, go figure) against 19 men in the same period.

 

In the decade prior, 62 men were nominated compared to 9 women.

 

So while I'm intrigued by the argument that women simply aren't interested in film music, I find it hard to believe so few women are interested in writing, considering the plethora of female authors out there! A recent study indicates that 24% of published books are written by women, yet female writers on Hollywood movies only just increased to 4%.

 

The further you dig on this topic, the clearer it becomes there's an industry-wide bias here... it isn't exclusive to film music.

 

Taking on all the bias in Hollywood is probably it’s own can of worms, that I have no intention of getting in to.

 

But as a general response to your post, I don’t think you can draw parallels that easily between different professions in movie making (i.e. between composing screen music and screenwriting) - or even draw parallels between writing a book and writing a script, for that matter. Between the latter, the similarities seem superficial at best to me.

 

But you mentioned screeenwriting specifically. I’d recommend you do a little digging on your own if you’re actually interested, but this was my first result google result:

 

Script Writer Demographics and Statistics In The US

 

[Holko 8018]

19 minutes ago, rough cut said:

But you mentioned screeenwriting specifically. I’d recommend you do a little digging on your own if you’re actually interested, but this was my first result google result:

 

Script Writer Demographics and Statistics In The US

 

But if you actually look at what they include under this category, you see it's not exactly Hollywood movie script writer:

[crumbs 12605]

21 minutes ago, rough cut said:

Taking on all the bias in Hollywood is probably it’s own can of worms, that I have no intention of getting in to.

 

Oh absolutely, it's a huge can of worms. I'm just trying to highlight that this disparity isn't contained to film music and female composers (though clearly there's history when it comes to women and classical music, whether subconsciously related or otherwise).

 

21 minutes ago, rough cut said:

But you mentioned screeenwriting specifically. I’d recommend you do a little digging on your own if you’re actually interested, but this was my first result google result:

 

But how many are screenplays optioned by studios? Clearly not many.

 

I guess we can argue about the quality of modern screenplays until the cows come home, also the types of films the studio system is interested in optioning (seems their focus is increasingly narrow, and perhaps these genres don't necessarily appeal to female writers).

[rough cut 1401]

Yea, my input on screenwriting was just a 1 min google… but I’m sure you can dig in to it.

[King Mark 3182]

5 hours ago, Bryant Burnette said:

 

Women can't solve puzzles and/or have poor spatial abilities?

 

that's  not what i said

 

Also that tweet suggest she cares more about feminism and being a woman composer than the quality of her music

[Naïve Old Fart 7511]

She once threw an egg at Simon Cowell. While she has every sympathy, that really isn't the way to go about getting publicity, and neither is this sort of Tweet. As far as I can tell, John Williams (nor any of the other nominees) has done nothing to her. If she wants to be nominated for an Oscar ™, then I suggest that she compose an Oscar-worthy score, you know like JW has... all 48 of them 

[Marian Schedenig 6218]

10 hours ago, King Mark said:

Why not , it's sort of technical requiring good spatial abilities like solving a puzzle.

 

Puzzles and spatial orientation… clearly something that women are inherently incapable of. 

 

12 hours ago, Indianagirl said:

As a female I'm so tired of this "when is it our time" stuff. Do better. 

 

11 hours ago, Indianagirl said:

I meant it in two regards. One become better at composing and two stop whining. Everyone today just whines. 

 

But the context of what you refer to as whining is the idea that women are at a disadvantage because they have to clear many more obstacles than men in the same position. "Do better" in that context could mean two things: 1) Stop complaining about being discriminated against and perform much better than men to get the same chances or 2) Do something against the obstacles. Which is the part that you refer to as "whining". (And for that matter, your comment would also qualify as whining).

[Naïve Old Fart 7511]

On 25/01/2023 at 4:09 AM, SpotTheDog said:

It's not an ad hominem attack on John Williams.

That's an "ad hominem", Patrick! 

[Muad'Dib 1622]

1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

If she wants to be nominated for an Oscar ™, then I suggest that she compose an Oscar-worthy score

 

Yes, because as this board clearly has shown over the years, every Oscar nominated score was worthy of the nomination...

[Naïve Old Fart 7511]

Oh, Maud'Dib, do you want to live out your life in a pain amplifier?

Of course not every score is worthy of the nomination, but it's not for the likes of you and I to say what is... unfortunately 

[Bryant Burnette 542]

17 hours ago, King Mark said:

 

that's  not what i said

 

Also that tweet suggest she cares more about feminism and being a woman composer than the quality of her music

 

You literally did say that.

[GerateWohl 2500]

20 hours ago, King Mark said:

Also that tweet suggest she cares more about feminism and being a woman composer than the quality of her music

What, If that very same statement would have been made by a male composer, like for example Michael Giacchino, would you assume as well, that he cared more for feminism than the quality of his music?

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

34 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

What, If that very same statement would have been made by a male composer, like for example Michael Giacchino, would you assume as well, that he cared more for feminism than the quality of his music?

 

Well, he certainly doesn't care much about quality.

[GerateWohl 2500]

1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Well, he certainly doesn't care much about quality.

I guess, I should open a thread, where people can explain to me, what is so bad about Giacchino. That guy wrote some excellent and many mediocre scores, which unites him with about 90% of the contemporary composers discussed in this forum. But none of them gets as much malice as Giacchino around here. I don't understand why.

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

I just don't connect much with his music, and I also often have the feeling that his compositions are rushed - he could have done more.

[TolkienSS 184]

On 25/01/2023 at 6:05 PM, Tydirium said:

I don't think women are really discouraged/intentionally left out when it comes to film music these days. 

 

Of course not.

Never in any point in history were people more free to do anything, and was it easier to attain skill and knowledge than today.

Especially for composers, it was never easier to gather knowledge of music, attain means of recording, and ways of publishing and showcasing work.

 

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

7 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

Especially for composers, it was never easier to gather knowledge of music, attain means of recording, and ways of publishing and showcasing work.

 

There's nothing left to hide our laziness behind. 

[TolkienSS 184]

On 29/01/2023 at 10:57 AM, Luke Skywalker said:

It's just a matter of time. Women seem to be better at studying, now that society really lets them do it. As mentioned before nowadays more females go to university. In veterinary science for example, i have seen that now there is almost 90% females. In one decade it will be rare to see a young male veterinarian, and when all old males retire, you would hardly see a man on the job.

 

Maybe forcing equality now with quotas can only slow than trend as males could feel threatened and try to ralentise it...

 

 

 

So, when quotas benefit men, that's "feeling threatened", when quotas benefit women, that's "encouraging".

 

Having a percentage in anything doesn't mean the outcome is quality. If you replace "really let them do it" with "encourage them to think they have to do it" that's closer to reality.

 

When I look at young people around me having barely enough attention span for an Instagram photo library, and reaching their frustration tolerance ceiling when doing dishes, I'm not sure that's a crowd for the sciences.

[Luke Skywalker 1440]

43 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

So, when quotas benefit men, that's "feeling threatened", when quotas benefit women, that's "encouraging".

 

Having a percentage in anything doesn't mean the outcome is quality. If you replace "really let them do it" with "encourage them to think they have to do it" that's closer to reality.

 

When I look at young people around me having barely enough attention span for an Instagram photo library, and reaching their frustration tolerance ceiling when doing dishes, I'm not sure that's a crowd for the sciences.

No, i meant that forcing quotas for women everytime everywhere could make the ruling male caste to feel their positions threatened and make laws to ralentise change, it is detrimental for womankind.

[Richard Penna 2504]

Jon Broxton's reply seems like a reasonable assessment to me:

 

Quote

Honestly I think change really needs to start at the top, where women composers are consistently considered and hired for major, prestige, tentpole films by studios/execs. Then the award noms/wins will hopefully follow.

 

https://twitter.com/mmuk64/status/1618017435709472768

 

Whenever we discuss likely/preferred assignments for various big movies, we rarely get female suggestions.

 

But we have a cycle where studios feel it's a risk to deviate from the established composers, but until more female composers get hired for major projects, they won't be the ones who get the call.

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

2 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

everytime everywhere

 

all at once.

[mrbellamy 5622]

Anne Dudley and Rachel Portman are two very talented and Oscar-winning composers who are still working and it really doesn't make much sense that they don't get more high-profile jobs. At this point they are kind of industry legends, or should be. Portman's Cider House main title is one of the most famous pieces of film music of the 90s! 

 

I feel like Desplat kind of became the new Rachel Portman. And I'm not ragging on him because he is a legitimate composer who is a valuable asset to Hollywood but there is probably a world where she's still in-demand for top dramas and gets three more Oscar nominations for The King's Speech, The Imitation Game, and Little Women, right? 

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

4 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

Portman's Cider House main title is one of the most famous pieces of film music of the 90s! 

 

A bit famous, perhaps, but not very.

 

4 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

Little Women

 

Why are they so small?

[Romão 2066]

Shirley Walker is a clear example of a female composer that had more than enough musical chops to tackle any big budget, mainstream action adventure movie, but still only really had major breaks in her TV work.

 

Wasn't she the first female composer to score a major Hollywood production?

[Jay 30970]

If 1981's "The Incredible Shrinking Woman" counts as "a major Hollywood production", then Suzanne Ciani wins

[mrbellamy 5622]

I think the distinction with Walker was that it was an orchestral score. 

[Muad'Dib 1622]

Angela Morley's extraordinary score for Watership Down also comes to mind, when most of her work was for TV.

[Naïve Old Fart 7511]

59 minutes ago, Muad'Dib said:

Angela Morley's extraordinary score for Watership Down also comes to mind, when most of her work was for TV.

Aaw! A beautiful score, from a beautiful film.

[TolkienSS 184]

Can someone point at a score by Natalie Holt that supports the theory that she would have been able to do a Star Wars-y score if darned producers hadn't "forbid" her?

 

It's a good defensive theory because it can never be proven - but if Lorne Balfe scored a sequel to Star Trek, and he told you he would have loved to write a score in the idiom of Jerry Goldsmith if his producer hadn't "held him back", you'd be a tiny bit suspicuous?

[Luke Skywalker 1440]

It was the director deborah chow that told her to restrain. Kathleen kennedy was the one who hired wiliams…

[Naïve Old Fart 7511]

4 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

It's a good defensive theory because it can never be proven...

It's called a "self-reinforcing delusion".

[TolkienSS 184]

3 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

It's called a "self-reinforcing delusion".

 

As in, if you repeat a lie often enough, it's taking on the mantle of truth.

[Marian Schedenig 6218]

Here's an article about the situation of Hollywood women composers in particular and composer assistants in general:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/feb/20/film-scoring-hollywood-misconduct-abuse-harassment-metoo

[The Lost Folio 88]

This is a frightening read...

 

Thanks for sharing, Marian.

[GerateWohl 2500]

14 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Here's an article about the situation of Hollywood women composers in particular and composer assistants in general:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/feb/20/film-scoring-hollywood-misconduct-abuse-harassment-metoo

This is really horrible.

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

Why don't people get other jobs that don't suck, like we do?

 

EDIT: I forgot for a moment there that my job does suck. Never mind.

[GerateWohl 2500]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Why don't people get other jobs that don't suck, like we do?

 

EDIT: I forgot for a moment there that my job does suck. Never mind.

Often you don't know, that the job sucks until you actually do it.

It is like you are a passionate boatman and a world champion rower and you always dreamed of working on a ship. And when you hire you realize that you just volunteered to become a galley slave.

 

[Manakin Skywalker 3601]

On 21/02/2023 at 1:01 PM, Marian Schedenig said:

Here's an article about the situation of Hollywood women composers in particular and composer assistants in general:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/feb/20/film-scoring-hollywood-misconduct-abuse-harassment-metoo

 

That second story about Jeremy Soule... yikes, I didn't need that image. Do they sell mouthwash for the brain?

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

It's called brainwash.