Obi-Wan Theme in The Rise of Skywalker!

[igger6 758]

This is not a drill!  Has this been noticed?  It's right there at 1:12 of "Advice" on the FYC.  Came up this afternoon on my iPod Classic.  I wonder what scene this underscores.  It's like an accidental nod to initial theories about Rey...

 

 

[King Mark 3182]

yeah it does sound like the opening notes

 

maybe he gets inspired to write new themes from  random tidbits from his previous scores like this

[JohnnyD 1110]

I hate to burst your bubble, but that is NOT Obi-Wan’s theme. This cue scores the scene when Kylo Ren becomes Ben Solo, when he speaks to the memory of his father, Han Solo. What you are referring to is the Ben Solo theme, a slight variation of Kylo Ren’s theme.

 

You need to change the title of this topic; not accurate at all. 

[King Mark 3182]

yeah but his clip still sounds like the opening of ObiWan

[Tom 3372]

Johnny,

You might be misinterpreting the thread title.  Igger is simply claiming that the melody is the same as the beginning of Obi-Wan's theme, not that JW literally score the scene thinking of Obi.  Clearly, the notes are the same.  I would say that these ideas are bump around JW's head in a sort of "this is SW music sort of way," and it, whether intentional or not, become the theme for Obi when he sat down to write it. 

[artguy360 1673]

Those are definitely the opening notes of Obi-Wan's theme. Nice find.

[Smeltington 1066]

Someone previously posted an instance of this theme appearing in this score, but I can't remember if it was in the same spot, and I can't find where it was posted either. Where's Jay??

[igger6 758]

1 hour ago, igger6 said:

It's like an accidental nod to initial theories about Rey...

My tinfoil hat is safely in the desk drawer.  I just think it’s a cool accidental foreshadowing of where JW’s Star Wars mind was drifting at the time. 
 

I’m curious, though, @JohnnyD: does that melody appear elsewhere in the score? Have I misunderstood this whole time what constitutes Ben Solo’s theme? I always though it was just the main Kylo melody with slightly different harmony and a two-note extension. 

20 minutes ago, Smeltington said:

Where's Jay??

I know! I thought my post would have drawn him out by now. 

[Manakin Skywalker 3601]

@igger6 you are correct. This is not Ben (Solo)'s theme, it's just a random one-off melody. Ben's theme is the one that plays right before his he comes across the Knights of Ren (which is just a very slight variation of Kylo's theme).

 

@JohnnyD this is Ben Solo's theme:

 

 

[Tydirium 841]

This has been mentioned before; isn't this just the first bit of the Anthem of Evil theme?

 

EDIT: Also, these notes are nothing unique, but rather a JW trademark: "Main Title and Escape" 4:34, "The Supremacy" 1:22, "The Quidditch Match" 3:47, "Ludlow's Demise" 1:36, I could go on and on...

[Manakin Skywalker 3601]

2 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

Isn't this just the first bit of the Anthem of Evil theme?

 

Not quite, but it's somewhat similar.

[artguy360 1673]

3 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

Isn't this just the first bit of the Anthem of Evil theme?

I think you're right!

[Tydirium 841]

7 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Not quite, but it's somewhat similar.

 

You're right, the fourth note in this is a half-step higher than in Anthem of Evil. More likely that this is the Resistance motif (or whatever that motif represented) from TLJ. "Main Title and Escape" 4:34, "The Supremacy" 1:22, etc. But at the end of the day, this particular series of notes isn't all that uncommon in JW's work.

[Michael Grigorowitsch 367]

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34598-john-williams-obi-wan-kenobi-theme-i-just-want-to-write-benny-a-theme/&do=findComment&comment=1913511

5 hours ago, igger6 said:

  I wonder what scene this underscores.

 

 

It underscores the scene with Kylo Ren/ Ben Solo and Han Solo on the destroyed death star, when Ben finally throws away his saber.

[rpvee 542]

Most likely a coincidence. That said, this does underscore the important scene when Kylo becomes Ben again, and he was named after Obi-Wan. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

[Luke Skywalker 1440]

I wonder what the one that wont be named thinks 🙃

[Chen G. 2937]

Williams has a kind of melodic and harmonic language that unifies all the “good guy” music in Star Wars; so themes from that theme group are bound to sound similar, especially when we’re dealing with two pieces of music that were conceived at close proximity.

[Jay 30970]

10 hours ago, igger6 said:

This is not a drill!  Has this been noticed? 

 

 

Yea

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34598-john-williams-obi-wan-kenobi-theme-i-just-want-to-write-benny-a-theme/&do=findComment&comment=1913511

 

 

[igger6 758]

I don’t know how you do it, @Jay!

[Evanus 188]

Yeah, I noticed the similarity too. Such a gorgeous track too, bizarre that it wasn't included on the OST. Same goes for most of the redeemed Ben material, which is odd.

[SilverTrumpet 518]

On 26/01/2023 at 2:42 AM, rpvee said:

Most likely a coincidence. That said, this does underscore the important scene when Kylo becomes Ben again, and he was named after Obi-Wan. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

Damn! Beat me to it! 

[Drew 557]

This is technically nothing. JW has been clinging to this i-iii-ii-V-i melody idea for several of his new themes. Such as Holdo’s theme from TLJ (that horn theme in TLJ album credits track). And Anthem of Evil is very similar. He is starting to self-reference like Horner more often.

[Not Mr. Big 4047]

It's just notes

[mrbellamy 5622]

[artguy360 1673]

On 25/01/2023 at 11:42 PM, rpvee said:

Most likely a coincidence. That said, this does underscore the important scene when Kylo becomes Ben again, and he was named after Obi-Wan. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

We need that one poster, Mathis(?), to weigh in on this theory.

[Chen G. 2937]

4 hours ago, Drew said:

JW has been clinging to this i-iii-ii-V-i melody idea for several of his new themes.

 

Yeah, but the whole name of the game in these long-running musical cycles is to use the same basic musical building blocks over and over again to build a lot of individual themes.

 

That is not to say that Williams intended this, its rather to say that the compositional technique Williams set-up for the series led his hand into doing this.

 

Its probably not too useful to read too much into the meaning of this similarity, though: its just that they're both "good guy" music and so they ought to share some similarities to be of the same world.

[Andy 2204]

On 26/1/2023 at 7:58 AM, igger6 said:

I don’t know how you do it, @Jay!

Yeah seriously. I hope this doesn’t sound insensitive or rude, but @Jaydo you have a photographic memory, like a savant, or do you organize posts like this behind the scenes?

[Holko 8018]

He's actually an AI hooked directly into the Invision forum software.

[Tom 3372]

Well of course Obi-Wan's theme is in Rise of Skywalker, silly; it is in all the movies.   

[igger6 758]

Soooo…a Jay-I?

 

Also, just to poke the collective bear here, I wish to observe that this melody plays in response to the touch of Han’s hand on Kylo’s face, the quasi-sacramental gesture that arguably triggers his transformation back into Ben. If nothing else, it’s a neat example of the work transcending its author’s intentions and one heck of a good argument for using Williams (or any original composer who’s still available for follow-ups) as often as, and for whatever jobs, he’s willing to come back. 

[Chen G. 2937]

On 29/1/2023 at 12:27 AM, igger6 said:

it’s a neat example of the work transcending its author’s intentions

 

Kinda, yeah. We were having a similar discussion about Howard Shore - to the extent that I think we made Doug miffed, I’m sorry to say - but the point here isn't to be flippant with the composer's intention, its to say that the compositional technique the composer set-up led his hand into unforseen outcomes.

[Falstaft 1791]

On 26/01/2023 at 4:52 AM, Chen G. said:

Williams has a kind of melodic and harmonic language that unifies all the “good guy” music in Star Wars; so themes from that theme group are bound to sound similar, especially when we’re dealing with two pieces of music that were conceived at close proximity.

 

This hits the nail on the head, I think, @Chen G. A fortuitous coincidence, which is not to say a meaningless one.

 

The similarity here is another instance of within a long list of JW using a kind of personal "meta" motif of 1-3-2-5 in minor. It's the basis for the Ludlow Motif among many other things, including a plethora of materials in Star Wars, Disney-era ones in particular. The Tension, Desperation, Resistance in Trouble, Anthem of Evil, and Obi Wan leitmotifs are all structured around in some way or another.

 

A nice example, strictly speaking non-leitmotivic, is in the finale from Attack of the Clones. Right before the strings start going all Games-of-Thronesy. Intervallically speaking, this is a dead-ringer for the "Advice" moment, though with a very different affect!

 

 

[Jay 30970]

On 26/01/2023 at 7:58 AM, igger6 said:

I don’t know how you do it, @Jay!

 

On 28/01/2023 at 1:31 PM, Andy said:

Yeah seriously. I hope this doesn’t sound insensitive or rude, but @Jaydo you have a photographic memory, like a savant, or do you organize posts like this behind the scenes?

 

On 28/01/2023 at 1:33 PM, Holko said:

He's actually an AI hooked directly into the Invision forum software.

 

 

Guys, @Michael Grigorowitschlinked to the post before I did!

 

 

[Andy 2204]

You should've let us go on thinking you're the SuperComputer from Superman III.

[Trope 86]

I'm sure somebody has already brought this up, but listening back to Return of the Jedi, I found this particular phrase at 0:16 (then again at 1:52) in "Alliance Assembly" reminded me of Obi-Wan's theme. Not exact notes/harmonies, but the phrase contour and structure.

 

 

[Not Mr. Big 4047]

6 minutes ago, Trope said:

I'm sure somebody has already brought this up, but listening back to Return of the Jedi, I found this particular phrase at 0:16 (then again at 1:52) in "Alliance Assembly" reminded me of Obi-Wan's theme. Not exact notes/harmonies, but the phrase contour and structure.

 

 

Very similar to the Poe esque theme from Falcon Flight (that I'm going to guess is for Lando?)

[artguy360 1673]

On 29/01/2023 at 4:22 PM, Falstaft said:

 

This hits the nail on the head, I think, @Chen G. A fortuitous coincidence, which is not to say a meaningless one.

 

The similarity here is another instance of within a long list of JW using a kind of personal "meta" motif of 1-3-2-5 in minor. It's the basis for the Ludlow Motif among many other things, including a plethora of materials in Star Wars, Disney-era ones in particular. The Tension, Desperation, Resistance in Trouble, Anthem of Evil, and Obi Wan leitmotifs are all structured around in some way or another.

 

A nice example, strictly speaking non-leitmotivic, is in the finale from Attack of the Clones. Right before the strings start going all Games-of-Thronesy. Intervallically speaking, this is a dead-ringer for the "Advice" moment, though with a very different affect!

 

 

I love how JW accidentally wrote the Game of Thrones theme in the finale of AOTC.

[Luke Skywalker 1440]

True hehe

[rpvee 542]

On the topic of moments in one film sounding like a theme statement from a future one, I’ve always thought this bit of “Father and Son” from Jedi sounds like “Across the Stars” from Clones, and it’s a relatively fitting scene, too.

 

 

[Luke Skywalker 1440]

What about the duel of the fates ostinato in esb’s “training of a jedi knight” at 0:20?

[igger6 758]

20 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

What about the duel of the fates ostinato in esb’s “training of a jedi knight” at 0:20?

 

100 percent confirmed.  Yoda is a Sith!

[TheAvengerButton 132]

I believe I said this in the post that @Jaylinked to, hut I have always been under the impression that this is a purposeful inclusion of the Psalm of the Sith theme in tragic mode underscoring a moment where Ben/Kylo is wrestling with which path to follow, a good path or an evil one. In this moment the theme appears as a last gasp of the evil rot inside of Ben as his inner good nature takes back over. 

[Manakin Skywalker 3601]

Kind of off topic, but I recently remembered (and I'm not positive if this has been mentioned since the Obi-Wan show was released) but I think Obi-Wan had sort of a short recurring motif in AOTC. It's kind of a heroic melody that appears in around 3(?) cues throughout the film, all in scenes with Obi-Wan, often on his own, and when he gets captured.

 

So this might actually be his third theme I guess. 

[artguy360 1673]

7 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Kind of off topic, but I recently remembered (and I'm not positive if this has been mentioned since the Obi-Wan show was released) but I think Obi-Wan had sort of a short recurring motif in AOTC. It's kind of a heroic melody that appears in around 3(?) cues throughout the film, all in scenes with Obi-Wan, often on his own, and when he gets captured.

 

So this might actually be his third theme I guess. 

Do you have a link/timestamp you can share? I don't recall this. 

[Manakin Skywalker 3601]

1 minute ago, artguy360 said:

Do you have a link/timestamp you can share? I don't recall this. 

 

 

 

And throughout this cue, from around 1:32 to 2:55

 

 

[igger6 758]

This kind of stuff fascinates me.  It happened more than once and wasn't tracked in, so there was clearly a deliberate effort at...something by Williams.  But you'd think a character as prominent as Obi-Wan, if he were going to get something, would get more than this.  We need score commentaries, Maestro!

[Not Mr. Big 4047]

An ancillary main character theme.  Like Darth Maul's non-DOTF theme in TPM

[artguy360 1673]

45 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

 

 

And throughout this cue, from around 1:32 to 2:55

 

 

Wow, yes! I've always enjoyed that little melody but I never considered it's thematic association.