Some thoughts on John Williams's atonal moments with reference to The Empire Strikes Back

[DomSewell 22]

Warning - this is probably a rather specialist post!
 
I've been doing a lot of analytical work on The Empire Strikes Back this season (2022-2023) and am about half way through now. There's tons of information on themes and advanced harmony (octatonic, hexatonic, Hungarian minor and Super Locrian etc) (see Frank Lehman's thematic catalogue or Mark Richards' fabulous course on Action Music Cues ) but there's not as much information on JW's atonalism: pc set theory doesn't always tell the whole story with Williams who often combines atonalism with advanced harmony. It's a similar situation to that which has occupied musicologists about let's say the Augers Chord from Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. (for a wide discussion see Daniel Chua here  (music analysis Volume26, Issue1-2 March‐July 2007 Pages 59-109

What struck me about the Chua article was the interesting take that Stravinsky himself had on the augers chord. When he plays it for a CBS interview -  he voices the chord in three ways - firstly the Fb chord but then the G then Db, Bb Eb which is the seed motif for the rest of the accompaniment in that segment. It exemplified the problems of calling it an Eb 13 (because you have to literally rearrange all the notes!), or 7-32 (for the same reason, it ceases to become that chord and becomes something else) along with amy modal or octatonic analysis (there is an anomalous note which doesn't 'fit' and modally bears no relation in that voicing to a harmonic minor mode), or, bitonal (Stravinsky doesn't play the chord as a bitonal chord when he individualises the notes in the CBS interview ). JW. Chua also cites others who say 'it's just hand position...nothing more' which he says is a cop out! Chua eventually considers the Augers chord as a 'sonority' and a sign in a semiotic sense and one which defies most analysis.

Perhaps by taking Chua's conclusions and applying them to JW we could consider sonority as a useful way of defining separate standalone chords within JW's atonalism. Intervallic content can be defined better if we consider the melodic order - in a particular voicing.

It's an interesting problem and am keen to hear viewpoints.             

I've enclosed this cue as the emperor appears towards the end and there's quite a bit of atonalism in there.  
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxe_rd2GVPY

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

Paging @Ludwig, @Falstaft.

[Datameister 2,037]

Interesting stuff. Voicing certainly does matter. Williams uses one particular construction (e.g. C Ab B) so often that I literally just think of it as the "Williams chord." I'll write "C Wil" or whatever as a shorthand when it comes up as I study his music.

[DomSewell 22]

23 hours ago, Datameister said:

Interesting stuff. Voicing certainly does matter. Williams uses one particular construction (e.g. C Ab B) so often that I literally just think of it as the "Williams chord." I'll write "C Wil" or whatever as a shorthand when it comes up as I study his music.

Absolutely -  Mark Richards calls that the 0,8,11 voicing and I often call it the Maj/min dyad. He often uses it as a pivot chord between various minor or octatonic scales types. Great spot. The other one is the Viennese trichord - less common. C Db Gb or C F# G (the 'Maria' melody in harmony) and often voiced as a quartal chord Eb A D -  the M7 seems very significant in all his gnarly writing.   

[karelm 2,903]

6 hours ago, DomSewell said:

Absolutely -  Mark Richards calls that the 0,8,11 voicing and I often call it the Maj/min dyad. He often uses it as a pivot chord between various minor or octatonic scales types. Great spot. The other one is the Viennese trichord - less common. C Db Gb or C F# G (the 'Maria' melody in harmony) and often voiced as a quartal chord Eb A D -  the M7 seems very significant in all his gnarly writing.   

That's a really good point about M7.  I think this harks back to his jazz history.  

[Tom 4,639]

On 27/01/2023 at 5:21 AM, Jurassic Shark said:

Paging @Ludwig, @Falstaft.

[Edmilson 7,393]

On 27/01/2023 at 1:46 AM, DomSewell said:

Warning - this is probably a rather specialist post!
 
I've been doing a lot of analytical work on The Empire Strikes Back this season (2022-2023) and am about half way through now. There's tons of information on themes and advanced harmony (octatonic, hexatonic, Hungarian minor and Super Locrian etc) (see Frank Lehman's thematic catalogue or Mark Richards' fabulous course on Action Music Cues ) but there's not as much information on JW's atonalism: pc set theory doesn't always tell the whole story with Williams who often combines atonalism with advanced harmony. It's a similar situation to that which has occupied musicologists about let's say the Augers Chord from Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. (for a wide discussion see Daniel Chua here  (music analysis Volume26, Issue1-2 March‐July 2007 Pages 59-109

What struck me about the Chua article was the interesting take that Stravinsky himself had on the augers chord. When he plays it for a CBS interview -  he voices the chord in three ways - firstly the Fb chord but then the G then Db, Bb Eb which is the seed motif for the rest of the accompaniment in that segment. It exemplified the problems of calling it an Eb 13 (because you have to literally rearrange all the notes!), or 7-32 (for the same reason, it ceases to become that chord and becomes something else) along with amy modal or octatonic analysis (there is an anomalous note which doesn't 'fit' and modally bears no relation in that voicing to a harmonic minor mode), or, bitonal (Stravinsky doesn't play the chord as a bitonal chord when he individualises the notes in the CBS interview ). JW. Chua also cites others who say 'it's just hand position...nothing more' which he says is a cop out! Chua eventually considers the Augers chord as a 'sonority' and a sign in a semiotic sense and one which defies most analysis.

Perhaps by taking Chua's conclusions and applying them to JW we could consider sonority as a useful way of defining separate standalone chords within JW's atonalism. Intervallic content can be defined better if we consider the melodic order - in a particular voicing.

It's an interesting problem and am keen to hear viewpoints.             

I've enclosed this cue as the emperor appears towards the end and there's quite a bit of atonalism in there.  
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxe_rd2GVPY

 

[pete 905]

Me too! Those videos are amazing. I'm understanding parts. - I have a pretty basic grasp of theory, but just seeing all those notes - both musical and written comments - just makes my mouth drool. I've been meaning to comment on one of the videos with a request: "Can you do videos for everything Williams has written?.. Goldsmith too, and Horner, and everyone else? Please"

[Falstaft 2,132]

On 27/01/2023 at 4:46 AM, DomSewell said:

Warning - this is probably a rather specialist post!

 

The best kind of post! Everyone, @DomSewell's work is amazing and if you haven't already checked out his videos, you owe it to yourself to do so. His analyses go into a level of detail and sophistication for JW's music that I'm not sure anyone else has. And that level of detail is, I feel, fully warranted by all the amazing things he keeps on discovering!

 

On 27/01/2023 at 2:07 PM, Datameister said:

Interesting stuff. Voicing certainly does matter. Williams uses one particular construction (e.g. C Ab B) so often that I literally just think of it as the "Williams chord." I'll write "C Wil" or whatever as a shorthand when it comes up as I study his music.

 

It's a JW musical fingerprint, that's for sure, and not just of his film music. That (014) trichord is basically the motivic through-line of his Cello Concerto (at least the original version, who can keep track...). It becomes progressively more prominent from movement to movement, starting halfway through the first, I believe. 

  

18 hours ago, pete said:

"Can you do videos for everything Williams has written?.. Goldsmith too, and Horner, and everyone else? Please"

 

Yes! Alien or Poltergeist would be amazing.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

7 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

The best kind of post! Everyone, @DomSewell's work is amazing and if you haven't already checked out his videos, you owe it to yourself to do so. His analyses go into a level of detail and sophistication for JW's music that I'm not sure anyone else has. And that level of detail is, I feel, fully warranted by all the amazing things he keeps on discovering!

 

He's also reconstructed Walton's complete score to Henry V - too bad it hasn't been recorded yet!

[Ludwig 1,120]

2 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

 

The best kind of post! Everyone, @DomSewell's work is amazing and if you haven't already checked out his videos, you owe it to yourself to do so. His analyses go into a level of detail and sophistication for JW's music that I'm not sure anyone else has. And that level of detail is, I feel, fully warranted by all the amazing things he keeps on discovering!

 

I heartily second this. @DomSewell has done analysis videos on every cue in The Phantom Menace, and has been working through The Empire Strikes Back up to now. His work is on a forensic level of detail, so you can find commentary on practically every moment of these cues. Fine work, Dom, and keep it up!

 

On 27/01/2023 at 4:46 AM, DomSewell said:

there's not as much information on JW's atonalism: pc set theory doesn't always tell the whole story with Williams who often combines atonalism with advanced harmony.

 

Absolutely! I'm working on concepts right now for the next action course that tackles some of his more difficult harmonies to label. Not atonal, but not fully tonal either. So hopefully more people will add their voice to discussing these kinds of chords, because many of them are at the heart of much of Williams' film writing.

[TolkienSS 405]

I tremendously respect people who can talk in music theory like that.

 

But don't you think sometimes Williams sits at his piano and goes "that sounds interesting" instead of going "let me continue with combining advanced harmony with atonality by pivoting through maj/min dyads with added M7"?

[karelm 2,903]

2 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

I tremendously respect people who can talk in music theory like that.

 

But don't you think sometimes Williams sits at his piano and goes "that sounds interesting" instead of going "let me continue with combining advanced harmony with atonality by pivoting through maj/min dyads with added M7"?

I think at this stage of his life, he doesn't have to think about it all because maybe 50 or 60 years ago he said "this sounds interesting...why is that interesting? What are the characteristics that make this work yet sound fresh?" By now it's probably automatic because he's been scratching his head over it for so many years.  One doesn't get this point of it being natural or automatic without years and years of grunt work, head scratching, and challenging yourself to push deeper. 

[Datameister 2,037]

4 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

I tremendously respect people who can talk in music theory like that.

 

But don't you think sometimes Williams sits at his piano and goes "that sounds interesting" instead of going "let me continue with combining advanced harmony with atonality by pivoting through maj/min dyads with added M7"?

I'm guessing it's a little of both. He's obviously studied, internalized, and experimented with plenty of music theory. Like @karelmsaid, it's probably not something he usually has to consciously articulate to himself anymore. And I'm sure it also depends on the nature of the writing.

[DomSewell 22]

On 29/1/2023 at 1:55 AM, pete said:

Me too! Those videos are amazing. I'm understanding parts. - I have a pretty basic grasp of theory, but just seeing all those notes - both musical and written comments - just makes my mouth drool. I've been meaning to comment on one of the videos with a request: "Can you do videos for everything Williams has written?.. Goldsmith too, and Horner, and everyone else? Please"

Thanks so much! I’ll do my best and yes will do some Goldsmith and Horner too after The ESB. 

On 30/1/2023 at 12:28 PM, TolkienSS said:

I tremendously respect people who can talk in music theory like that.

 

But don't you think sometimes Williams sits at his piano and goes "that sounds interesting" instead of going "let me continue with combining advanced harmony with atonality by pivoting through maj/min dyads with added M7"?

Possibly. But I suspect (although don’t know for certain) that a lot of the theory was already ingrained at his age even then (studies with Tedesco and others). Tim Rodier (Omni Music) suggested he did a lot of woodshedding when his first wife sadly passed away in 1974 (would be interesting to compare his work after with before?)

 

Of course that’s not to say that he didn’t get inspired by moving his fingers across the keys. It’s undoubtedly true that he did get get inspired in this way  (as did Stravinsky eg Petrushka black keys/white keys). But also using the example of Stravinsky he also must have worked out certain combinations of notes that seem to ‘work’ since they come up again and again. The detail of his score shows someone who painstakingly writes (perhaps after having a play around!) - I really hope someone asks him about his classical studies and what books he was aware of. My feeling (I think others would generally agree) is that the coincidences of using Octatonic, hexatonic and Hungarian minor (and Super Locrian) are far too numerous to ‘intuit’. 
 

I’ll be chatting to Frank Lehman soon I’m the next couple of weeks so will ask him about this ! It’s a fascinating topic! And thanks too! 

On 30/1/2023 at 2:34 PM, karelm said:

I think at this stage of his life, he doesn't have to think about it all because maybe 50 or 60 years ago he said "this sounds interesting...why is that interesting? What are the characteristics that make this work yet sound fresh?" By now it's probably automatic because he's been scratching his head over it for so many years.  One doesn't get this point of it being natural or automatic without years and years of grunt work, head scratching, and challenging yourself to push deeper. 

Well put!

[DomSewell 22]

On 29/01/2023 at 9:00 PM, Ludwig said:

 

I heartily second this. @DomSewell has done analysis videos on every cue in The Phantom Menace, and has been working through The Empire Strikes Back up to now. His work is on a forensic level of detail, so you can find commentary on practically every moment of these cues. Fine work, Dom, and keep it up!

 

 

Absolutely! I'm working on concepts right now for the next action course that tackles some of his more difficult harmonies to label. Not atonal, but not fully tonal either. So hopefully more people will add their voice to discussing these kinds of chords, because many of them are at the heart of much of Williams' film writing.

Thanks so much and such good news. I love the passion surrounding JW's music and the joy that it brings everyone. I'd be first on the list for the new action course!