The Empire Strikes Back

[Naïve Old Fart 9,507]

On 07/02/2023 at 5:48 PM, Chen G. said:

I'm continually torn between which score I think is the better one: that of the original film or that of The Empire Strikes Back. 

Let me help you out, with that:

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is the (much) better score.

Happy to oblige 

[Chen G. 3,944]

Is it, though?

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Ye.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,507]

Yea!

Oops! 

[Faleel 5,340]

11 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

 

I find the score to Jedi 100% on the same level as the other two, and an expanded release in good audio quality would certainly do it a lot of favors. The new themes are just as intelligently composed (if of a goofier nature) as any in the first two films.

 

 

 

It has a lot going on, and is pretty much wall-to-wall music for the entire film, except for a couple of scenes. I'm sure this was done to give the ears a rest before the climactic battle scene.

 

All that said, Empire is my all-time favorite JW score. He was on a string of big, operatic, old-school-romantic scores in the late 70's, and it all came together for this one. Every moment of it is musically inventive, often more than is reasonable, or required for simply serving the film. Why does he go so hard in the brass when Luke is blowing up the AT-AT? It's insane. The whole Battle of Hoth sequence is insane. Why is he writing all new themes for practically every scene in the film? Why does a choir show up for 30 seconds of screen time, never to be heard again? Because he could--next level, chefs-kiss.

 

Also, I am convinced that a pick-up Hollywood orchestra would not be capable of some of the things he asks the LSO to do in this score, at least not with such effortless virtuosity. From the wampa attack on, it's some of the most difficult brass writing I've ever heard.

 

This score is brilliant, and I'll never get over the Academy giving Howard Shore two Oscars for LotR, But Williams only got one for Star Wars when he was writing scores of this level of brilliance. Fame wins? Are f*****g serious? Unbelievable.

Thanks for quoting me, to actually quote @Andy....

[Tallguy 3,380]

Star Wars might still be better. Some days.

[Bellosh 3,398]

This might make some people mad here, but I love A New Hope, both score and film. How could you not? But at the end of the day it still just sounds so raw and bare bones (for the lack of a better term).  Look I don't need themes every single second in a score but Star Wars got it's sound with Empire.

 

Edit: Jay can we fix it so we get reputation points from angry emojis? 

[Jay 37,322]

35 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

I love A New Hope, both score and film. How could you not? But at the end of the day it still just sounds so raw and bare bones (for the lack of a better term).  Look I don't need themes every single second in a score but Star Wars got it's sound with Empire.

 

I agree with Bellosh. 

[Faleel 5,340]

ANH has themes almost every second.....

[Bellosh 3,398]

I guess but who's counting 

[karelm 2,903]

This is like picking the ugly Helmsworth.  Yes, yes, one is better than the other, but all are incredibly impressive.  ANH and ESB are some of tbe greatest scores in film history. Even if one is greater than the other, the other is still incredible.  It's like picking the greatest Olympic swimmer.  The difference between first place and last place is like .9 seconds.  All are freaking amazing!

[Bellosh 3,398]

I don't disagree with anything you said. Empire is what it is because ANH was such a success that star wars could essentially begin it's tale and Johnny wasn't tied to a temp score.

 

Also is the dude on the right ROTJ or AOTC?

 

[Tallguy 3,380]

If Empire had been entirely a move forward then it would be Empire for the win. But there are great things in Star Wars that Empire leaves behind. There's a certain kind of sound that Star Wars has that Empire doesn't quite. Star Wars has a certain reserve. I'd even say that for all the notion that Empire is the "dark film" that Star Wars has more menace in it than Empire. Empire (and Raiders) embrace a certain kind of cartoon villainy.

 

So it continues to be a tie.

[michael_grig 468]

14 hours ago, karelm said:

This is like picking the ugly Helmsworth.  Yes, yes, one is better than the other, but all are incredibly impressive.  ANH and ESB are some of tbe greatest scores in film history. Even if one is greater than the other, the other is still incredible.  It's like picking the greatest Olympic swimmer.  The difference between first place and last place is like .9 seconds.  All are freaking amazing!

I will show this picture to everyone who asks me about a rank of the three original movies now. It is 100% correctly arranged

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

What's Chris Pine doing there?

[GerateWohl 4,343]

6 hours ago, Tallguy said:

If Empire had been entirely a move forward then it would be Empire for the win. But there are great things in Star Wars that Empire leaves behind. There's a certain kind of sound that Star Wars has that Empire doesn't quite. Star Wars has a certain reserve. I'd even say that for all the notion that Empire is the "dark film" that Star Wars has more menace in it than Empire. Empire (and Raiders) embrace a certain kind of cartoon villainy.

 

So it continues to be a tie.

Yes, Star Wars had a certain pirate movie swashbuckler lightness to it, that Empire didn't anymore. Which in a way then came back again in Jedi. Probably that is why Williams brought back so much music from the first film in the third one (I know, Lucas asked for it).

[Chen G. 3,944]

36 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Which in a way then came back again in Jedi.

 

Certainly with all the Ewok malarky and the Jabba short. But all the Emperor stuff is some of the gloomiest of the trilogy, and this is also very true of the music.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

I get the feeling that you love the Ewoks very much.

[Andy 4,089]

Star Wars is the greatest use of timpani ever.  Ever!

[Faleel 5,340]

9 minutes ago, Andy said:

Star Wars is the greatest use of timpani ever.  Ever!

007 Takes the Lektor

 

Pffist Fight/The Flying Wing.

 

Desert Chase

 

Prologue and Main Title from Superman

[Brando 1,857]

2 hours ago, Andy said:

Star Wars is the greatest use of timpani ever.  Ever!

 

2 hours ago, Clockwork Angel said:

007 Takes the Lektor

 

Pffist Fight/The Flying Wing.

 

Desert Chase

 

Prologue and Main Title from Superman

Both. Both is good 

[karelm 2,903]

On 23/02/2023 at 1:29 PM, Andy said:

Star Wars is the greatest use of timpani ever.  Ever!

Don Williams literally said, though reluctantly, that he thought Star Wars was overly using timpani and said he mentioned it to JW and his feedback impacted the timpani part in subsequent recordings.  The original version is more excessive than later versions.   At 1:04, that particular descending sequence is only in ANH.  After that, they are repeated notes....more practical.  Don has performed this thousands of times and in sessions, would use 12 chromatic timpani but in concerts, might have four and has to tune that descending scale on a single drum.  He said it could be done but was problematic - the drum takes a moment to settle and written like this, doesn't allow for that settling time meaning it's usually out of tune.  

 

[Andy 4,089]

Don should’ve kept it to himself.  Or Williams should’ve ignored him. 

[karelm 2,903]

8 minutes ago, Andy said:

Don should’ve kept it to himself.  Or Williams should’ve ignored him. 

Have you ever looked up the definition of Hubris?  

[Andy 4,089]

I first learned about the word in Humanities class in high school.  It was in regards to a work of Shakespeare.  Basically it means pride as I understand it. 

[Tallguy 3,380]

9 hours ago, karelm said:

Have you ever looked up the definition of Hubris?  

 

I'm sure I don't need to.

 

9 hours ago, karelm said:

At 1:04, that particular descending sequence are only in ANH.  After that, they are repeated notes.

 

Wow. See, this is the kind of thing that is why I come to JWFan!

[Score 770]

14 hours ago, karelm said:

Don Williams literally said, though reluctantly, that he thought Star Wars was overly using timpani and said he mentioned it to JW and his feedback impacted the timpani part in subsequent recordings.  The original version is more excessive than later versions.   At 1:04, that particular descending sequence are only in ANH.  After that, they are repeated notes.

 

 

As far as I know, there was an intermediate step, namely, the orchestral suite that was published for concert performance after the release of SW (several movements of which, including the Main Title, were later incorporated in the Hal Leonard published suites). After that publication, the recordings of the Main Title for ESB, ROTJ and the prequels used that score. There are various differences between the SW recording of the Main Titles and the suite score, a notable one being the simplification of the timpani part. I didn't know that this was based on Don Williams's input!  

 

[Tom Guernsey 2,281]

18 hours ago, Andy said:

Star Wars is the greatest use of timpani ever.  Ever!

Nah... Barry Gray wins ;-)

[karelm 2,903]

9 hours ago, Score said:

 

As far as I know, there was an intermediate step, namely, the orchestral suite that was published for concert performance after the release of SW (several movements of which, including the Main Title, were later incorporated in the Hal Leonard published suites). After that publication, the recordings of the Main Title for ESB, ROTJ and the prequels used that score. There are various differences between the SW recording of the Main Titles and the suite score, a notable one being the simplification of the timpani part. I didn't know that this was based on Don Williams's input!  

 

Ok, you're right and Don who's played this a thousand times is wrong. 

[Score 770]

7 hours ago, karelm said:

Ok, you're right and Don who's played this a thousand times is wrong. 

 

???

I wasn't doubting what you said. I said I didn't know that the modification of the timpani part was done on Don's suggestion. There was no sarcasm involved. Since that modification appeared already in the suite (which was published before the recording of ESB, and whose score was used for the recordings of the SW chapters coming after episode IV), I just wanted to say that Don's suggestions were implemented already in the suite, and then entered ESB, ROTJ and the prequels.   

[karelm 2,903]

5 hours ago, Score said:

 

???

I wasn't doubting what you said. I said I didn't know that the modification of the timpani part was done on Don's suggestion. There was no sarcasm involved. Since that modification appeared already in the suite (which was published before the recording of ESB, and whose score was used for the recordings of the SW chapters coming after episode IV), I just wanted to say that Don's suggestions were implemented already in the suite, and then entered ESB, ROTJ and the prequels.   

My bad. 

[Tallguy 3,380]

On 23/02/2023 at 8:42 PM, karelm said:

Don Williams literally said, though reluctantly, that he thought Star Wars was overly using timpani and said he mentioned it to JW and his feedback impacted the timpani part in subsequent recordings. 

 

Is Don John's... Brother? Or is this another Williams. My son was playing the timpani last night and I was thinking of this. I didn't know the whole story so I didn't tell him yet.

[Jay 37,322]

2 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Is Don John's... Brother?

 

Yes.

 

2 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Or is this another Williams.

 

No.

[Marc 758]

This cue  
 

 

[Bellosh 3,398]

great job dude!

[Bellosh 3,398]

my favorite end credits

 

 

[JTN 2,002]

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[Marc 758]

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