Spotting and synch by JW and Wannberg in The Empire Strikes Back

[DomSewell 22]

Apologies if this has been covered but I'm interested in the technology that JW had access to in 1980 for The Empire Strikes Back. There are no tempo markings in the orchestrator scores but there are in his sketches (I say sketches but really they are handwritten full scores with all the orchestration in a condensed format). So for example, in Asteroid Field he indicates a span of time from 27sec9fr to 29s4fr with 4 beats between them. All he would have had was Kenneth Wannberg (RIP (didn't realise he died last year)) a moviola machine, a stopwatch (?) and some calculations 60/secs in clip x beats = BPM and presumably a click book. A click book still exists in older editions of Karlin and Wright On the Track and I think I worked out using it that the bpm was 133.95 for 1.79secs (1s and 19fr with 24fps).    

What i want to know is who put streamers on for the sessions as well as worked out the BPM's and where did they list them? Quite a large chunk of time would have been taken up by that synchronisation stage and if JW only had Wannberg to help him the achievement of writing such a lot of complex music for that film is even more if a Herculean effort.

Part observation and interest this post...     clip with Wannberg towards the end of the vid...  

 

 

[DomSewell 22]

Update: one of fab patrons mentioned that Wannberg was responsible for timing all of JW's cues and hence all of the streamers. During the 2002 E.T. Anniversary performance with the orchestra, Wannberg was sat beside the orchestra with score and video monitor making sure all the streamers were working correctly. Was this the first time a whole NON SILENT film had been performed with live orchestra? 

 

 

[Jay 37,351]

2 minutes ago, DomSewell said:

Was this the first time a whole NON SILENT film had been performed with live orchestra?

 

I think so?  Definitely one of the first if not the very first

 

Fellowship of the Ring LTP concerts start not longer after - 2006/2007ish?

[karelm 2,913]

8 hours ago, Jay said:

 

I think so?  Definitely one of the first if not the very first

 

Fellowship of the Ring LTP concerts start not longer after - 2006/2007ish?

I don't think so.  I attended classical concerts prior to this with the SF Symphony where they played Sergei Eisenstein's (1898-1948) films Ivan the Terrible and Battleship Potemkin with music by Sergei Prokofiev and Dmitri Shostakovich.  They were projecting Soviet era propaganda films from the 1930's and 1940's Soviet films, but the accompanying score was live with a large symphony orchestra.  I'm certain even that wasn't the first time.  

13 hours ago, DomSewell said:

Apologies if this has been covered but I'm interested in the technology that JW had access to in 1980 for The Empire Strikes Back. There are no tempo markings in the orchestrator scores but there are in his sketches (I say sketches but really they are handwritten full scores with all the orchestration in a condensed format). So for example, in Asteroid Field he indicates a span of time from 27sec9fr to 29s4fr with 4 beats between them. All he would have had was Kenneth Wannberg (RIP (didn't realise he died last year)) a moviola machine, a stopwatch (?) and some calculations 60/secs in clip x beats = BPM and presumably a click book. A click book still exists in older editions of Karlin and Wright On the Track and I think I worked out using it that the bpm was 133.95 for 1.79secs (1s and 19fr with 24fps).    

What i want to know is who put streamers on for the sessions as well as worked out the BPM's and where did they list them? Quite a large chunk of time would have been taken up by that synchronisation stage and if JW only had Wannberg to help him the achievement of writing such a lot of complex music for that film is even more if a Herculean effort.

Part observation and interest this post...     clip with Wannberg towards the end of the vid...  

 

 

JW doesn't conduct from the orchestral scores.  He uses his 8 stave sketches which as you point out have the tempo but even then, prefers punches and streamers as much as possible.  Basically, as close as you can get to free time but also making the necessary hits.  I don't think anyone does that now other than JW.  Tempo in film scores can go from 101.3 to 102.9 a few bars later to 98.72 a few bars later to nail a hit.  Too hard for any person to notice.   Getting rid of tempi like this and just making sure you land at the right spot lets the musicians speak and feel the music more.  But if you stripe a score which is much more common now, you need each separated recording session to fully align.  

[Fabulin 3,511]

John Mauceri did it as early as 1991 (48:12)

 

[stravinsky 206]

JW conducted from full scores for the sessions for TPM, AotC and ROTS which I was involved in. In this photo from Abbey Road he has the full score for Episode II in his hand. 

Oh no wait a minute. On closer inspection perhaps that is the short score he is holding. With two leafs doubled up into one page? 

[Jilal 569]

2 hours ago, stravinsky said:

JW conducted from full scores for the sessions for TPM, AotC and ROTS which I was involved in. In this photo from Abbey Road he has the full score for Episode II in his hand. 

Oh no wait a minute. On closer inspection perhaps that is the short score he is holding. With two leafs doubled up into one page? 

 

Yes, he's definitely holding one of his own manuscripts.

[DomSewell 22]

On 04/03/2023 at 12:53 AM, karelm said:

I don't think so.  I attended classical concerts prior to this with the SF Symphony where they played Sergei Eisenstein's (1898-1948) films Ivan the Terrible and Battleship Potemkin with music by Sergei Prokofiev and Dmitri Shostakovich.  They were projecting Soviet era propaganda films from the 1930's and 1940's Soviet films, but the accompanying score was live with a large symphony orchestra.  I'm certain even that wasn't the first time.  

JW doesn't conduct from the orchestral scores.  He uses his 8 stave sketches which as you point out have the tempo but even then, prefers punches and streamers as much as possible.  Basically, as close as you can get to free time but also making the necessary hits.  I don't think anyone does that now other than JW.  Tempo in film scores can go from 101.3 to 102.9 a few bars later to 98.72 a few bars later to nail a hit.  Too hard for any person to notice.   Getting rid of tempi like this and just making sure you land at the right spot lets the musicians speak and feel the music more.  But if you stripe a score which is much more common now, you need each separated recording session to fully align.  

That's interesting. Am pretty sure I remember Potemkin as a silent film but Ivan must have had sound as well as Nevsky. Good spot! Yep - imagining conducting from a sketch! Glad no one sees mine!!!!    

[karelm 2,913]

On 05/03/2023 at 11:03 AM, stravinsky said:

JW conducted from full scores for the sessions for TPM, AotC and ROTS which I was involved in. In this photo from Abbey Road he has the full score for Episode II in his hand. 

Oh no wait a minute. On closer inspection perhaps that is the short score he is holding. With two leafs doubled up into one page? 

 

Yes, he generally uses his 8 stave short scores with two systems per page.  Here is a close up of his conductor score - clearly the short score with two 8 stave systems but it flashes by quickly.  I'm sure there are times he conducts from full scores such as the main title (if he even uses a score at this point having conducted it a million times) I believe is from the Hal Leanord score, but the original underscore is generally from his sketch.  The recording and mix engineers use the full score prepared by JAKMS.  The reason why he uses sketches makes sense.  He is considering it the definitive version of what he meant and doesn't require as much score study.