Orchestral music vs. film music vs. orchestral film music

[GerateWohl 4,344]

Sorry, this text is quite unstructured. But I try to capture a thought that went through my head recently.

 

I used to see myself as a fan of motion picture scores for many many years. Even though I listen to all different kinds of music apart from movies like pop music, rock music, sometimes a little jazz, soul, hard core, metal, classical music you name it. In each of these genres I am quite selective with what I like and what I don't like. To some of these genres I was pointed by a film score, sometimes other circumstances. That brings me slowly to the point I want to make.

Film music in itself does not really seem to be a musical genre. It uses musical genres for its purpose to illustrate a movie musically. So, in a way film music seems to be some kind of catalyst for me for music I might like or not.

 

The aspect of illustrating pictures by music is a secondary one. So why do soundtrack fans often draw a clear line between songs used as score like Tarantino does and instrumental scores? Film music is film music is music played in movies no matter what music it is.

 

Secondly, I don't like all music. I driven to motion picture scores by film scores in the 80s like Star Wars, E.T., The Black Hole, Clash of the Titans, Superman etc. That pointed me to classical music and even pop and rock music using orchestra in particular. 

 

With the time I got more interested in more minimal kinds of music like new wave and rock music that could express moods and feelings that this orchestral music was not capable of. That also influenced my taste in film music. 

 

And I found, what makes music for me interesting are not necessarily the instruments but certain qualities music can have, like how essembles from orchestras to bands play together and become more than the sum of their parts, but also qualities like unique recongisable tunes that stick in your head, interesting variations and development of musical ideas etc.
To songs in addition come the lyrics that add a major value to the music.

 

But apart from that my criteria for music I like are more or less universal across all genres and types of music that I listen to. BUT - and now comes my main point - in the context of film scores I often find myself in a position asking myself, why am I listening to this? Yes, it is a score, but it so obviously is not a music I like. It does not fulfill any criterion for me what makes music interesting in any way. 

 

That more and more brings me to the question: Am I still a soundtrack fan? In the meantime I think, I can clearly answer that question with NO.
Is film music an important catalyst for me to find music I like?
YES.

So, I rather see myself as a fan of certain kind of orchestral and other music.

 

And a John Williams fan I am anyway. And he just writes great music in many genres in and outside the movies.
So, he represents in many ways what I want to explain here with that text.

 

And if I would be as open with pop or rock music like I am with scores, I would listen to a lot of crap, which I don't. So, I think, I should rather treat film music like all the other music that I deal with and be a little more selective and true to my taste. It might be natural and obvious for you. But for me I found that I sometimes have to push me back on track.

 

How do you others see yourself in that regard? 
Similar thoughts or completely different?

Do you also find yourself thinking "Why should I even listen to that? Just because it is a score?"
 

[TolkienSS 405]

Well, I think this post is living proof that film music is getting worse. And worse to an extent where even Soundtrack fans ask themselves "Why am I listening to this?"

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Well said, @GerateWohl. Personally, I only purchase soundtrack albums I like, or that I'm curious about and think I will like. If I don't find it worth keeping, I either sell it or give it away.

 

However, in the last few years I've purchased some albums of previous decades I've earlier dismissed, probably because my taste gradually changes, but also because albums are going OOP more quickly now. Another reason is when comparing to the scores of today, you realize there's a wealth of potentially good scores of the past that should be investigated further.

[Thor 7,478]

You ask some good questions, Geratewohl, questions that I think most of us film score fans have asked ourselves over the years.

 

You're definitely right that film music isn't a genre, but an amalgam of different genres. It's "Gebrauchsmusik", as you say in Germany, and can take all shapes and forms - for better or worse.

 

My path into soundtracks is kinda opposite to yours. I was first very much into prog rock and instrumental electronic music until I realized, ca. 1990, that soundtrack albums had some of the same conceptual qualities I dug from those genres. And it didn't only have to be scores in a rock or electronic style. Since I was also a big fan of those "LSO Plays Classic Rock" albums from the late 80s and early 90s, I was starting to enjoy orchestral music which I had previously disliked somewhat through my father's immense classical collection and listening. So it was very much a natural segueway.

 

Beyond that, I've asked myself why I've been so attracted to soundtracks. After all, I want the albums to be concise and arranged for maximum listening pleasure, just like those non-film concept albums, so it can't be on a structural level in its most raw form. Rather, I think it has something to do with 'emotional directness' within the cues themselves. That is, because the music in a scene has to get to the emotional or thematic core quicker - without the, at times, longwinded detours that a lot of ornamentation in classical music does -- it immediately appealed to me. Of course, post-film music-interest, I've come to embrace classical music too, but not on the same level.

 

Not sure any of this answered your queries, but some random thoughts related to the whole meta perspective of "why we like".

[Richard Penna 3,676]

The only area of film music over which I lament at the moment is when directors decide they want a more droning, RCP-flavoured score, and don't want any themes, but (this is the crucial bit) they still want original music. Why bother? There's enough pre-existing 'atmospheric' music out there that you don't need a composer to come up with another drone or percussion beat - just search through some libraries.

 

Now maybe I'm judging that wrong, and perhaps after a composer has done an exhausting orchestral masterpiece they rather like the task of trying to improve a film with a more textural approach. However, I'm certainly in the camp that would prefer composers worked on projects that were musically interesting.

 

Having said that, I like, for example, much of Bishara's horror work, despite quite a lot of that literally just being 'noise'. It provides work for a composer who must get something out of it, but the films don't need it.

 

Although I got into scores via electronic music and I certainly got attached to production music  way, way before any indications that I was into soundtracks. This no doubt explains why I tend to like a lot of electronic or atmospheric-driven scores.

[GerateWohl 4,344]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

Rather, I think it has something to do with 'emotional directness' within the cues themselves. That is, because the music in a scene has to get to the emotional or thematic core quicker - without the, at times, longwinded detours that a lot of ornamentation in classical music does -- it immediately appealed to me. Of course, post-film music-interest, I've come to embrace classical music too, but not on the same level.

That is an interesting point, that also explains to me, if a score neither attracts me directly in an emotional way, nor does trigger any intellectual buttons, why should I pay any attention to it anyway.

 

My query was basically, if anyone else has the feeling that he or she should be more selctive with film scores, because usually you do it with any other music you listen to as well. Nobody buys records of band that one has no connection or doesn't particularly like just because it is in the same genre as bands you like.

 

As I don't have the burdon like you to deal with this music professionally, which requres a certain openness, and I just deal with it for my private enjoyment. And I found myself taking different mesures here and there, thinking "This is a score, so potentially something I like".

 

But meanwhile I say, no. The simple fact that this is a film score says neither that I potentially like it nor that it is something of a certain quality. There is such dumb musicand as a music listener I don't care, that this might support a movie in a special way, because when I listen to it, I don't have that context and the music must stand on its own.

And I want to get impressed by music. Not less.

If it doesn't manage to do so, why deal with it?

 

Of course I had also the experience, that there was music, that I was not very interested in, but a fan or connoisseur managed to explain to me what is interesting or special or particularly good about this or that music.

But here come two other things into play.

The one, that you know from our separate discussion, where I expressed my disappointment with the explanations and expositions of so called experts about filmscores.

And the other thing is, that with age and experience and the conciousness that listening time is precious time, you experience less and less completely new surprises musically.

 

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

However, in the last few years I've purchased some albums of previous decades I've earlier dismissed, probably because my taste gradually changes, but also because albums are going OOP more quickly now. Another reason is when comparing to the scores of today, you realize there's a wealth of potentially good scores of the past that should be investigated further.

Good points. Same situation for me. But somehow I have a stomach feeling, that there will come a time in the not too far future, where all my carefully picked physical releases will become obsolete by some technical or economical development and it all will be available in a much more attractive and cheaper way. And I am not just talking about streaming.

But I don't know. We will see.

[karelm 2,903]

Switch to video game scores.

[GerateWohl 4,344]

14 minutes ago, karelm said:

Switch to video game scores.

Recommendations?

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Video games scores usually are too epic for my taste. They start at ten and end up at eleven.

[Thor 7,478]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

That is an interesting point, that also explains to me, if a score neither attracts me directly in an emotional way, nor does trigger any intellectual buttons, why should I pay any attention to it anyway.

 

Yeah, that particular point said nothing about musical styles one is attracted to. It was more a general point about film music's nature that makes it an appealing musical form (compared to classical music, for example), even when it's divorced from its images.

 

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

My query was basically, if anyone else has the feeling that he or she should be more selctive with film scores, because usually you do it with any other music you listen to as well. Nobody buys records of band that one has no connection or doesn't particularly like just because it is in the same genre as bands you like.

 

To that last point: I actually do explore bands and composers and artists I'm not familiar with, as long as I know they're in a genre or style I like. For example, I've spent a great deal of time in the last few years plunging the depths of synthwave after I first latched on to a couple of composers I liked. I wanted to see if there was more of that out there. And there was.

 

As for the other point, I consider myself very selective in terms of film music, even if my taste is very broad. Sometimes, my taste is informed by non-film music passions. For example, I dig electronic scores that are in the same style as my non-film music electronic music passions. But other times, it's the other way around. My exposure to modernistic scores like POTA or ALTERED STATES led to exploration and appreciation of non-film music modernism, like Ligeti, Penderecki, Stockhausen etc. It's all a continual exchange, this way and that way. Since film music is such a dynamic form of music, it can be used both as a platform to discover new things, and a place to find things you already like from elsewhere.

 

The 'curation', if you could call it that, comes in the form of more general likes and dislikes, at this particular point in time (my taste has changed a bit over the years): I don't veer much towards the big, symphonic action scores these days, unless they're from my formative years and before. I don't veer much towards the drone stuff, unless there are interesting things happening inside the drones. That kind of stuff. Vice versa, I veer more towards calmer scores, smaller or alternative ensembles, finely tuned orchestral drama scores, electronic scores, pop-infused scores etc. etc. That's how I navigate in film music land. Not really by genre, but by certain features, I suppose.

 

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

Of course I had also the experience, that there was music, that I was not very interested in, but a fan or connoisseur managed to explain to me what is interesting or special or particularly good about this or that music.

But here come two other things into play.

The one, that you know from our separate discussion, where I expressed my disappointment with the explanations and expositions of so called experts about filmscores.

And the other thing is, that with age and experience and the conciousness that listening time is precious time, you experience less and less completely new surprises musically.

 

This is really a whole other topic you bring up. How much does other people's opinions matter in your own evaluation of something? I do read film and film music reviews sometimes, but the greatest pleasure is of course to discover gems all on your own. It rarely happens that someone convinces me to like something I don't like or the other way around, even if it's a reviewer or person whose opinions I tend to share or respect. But it might help me fill in some extra context for said like or dislike.

[TolkienSS 405]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Well said, @GerateWohl. Personally, I only purchase soundtrack albums I like, or that I'm curious about and think I will like. If I don't find it worth keeping, I either sell it or give it away.

 

However, in the last few years I've purchased some albums of previous decades I've earlier dismissed, probably because my taste gradually changes, but also because albums are going OOP more quickly now. Another reason is when comparing to the scores of today, you realize there's a wealth of potentially good scores of the past that should be investigated further.

 

In other words, your exes of 10 years ago are worth sending a Text to now, after you've seen what silly things are out there now.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

We've been together for considerably longer than ten years.

[GerateWohl 4,344]

23 minutes ago, Thor said:

It rarely happens that someone convinces me to like something I don't like or the other way around, even if it's a reviewer or person whose opinions I tend to share or respect. But it might help me fill in some extra context for said like or dislike.

That was my point. I am in that regard not interested in others' opinions. I described the rare case where someone is knowledgable enough to give me context, background information and knowledge about a work that wakes my interest and enriches or changes the musical experience. If somebody just tells me: "I am an expert. I have listened to a thousand scores, so you can believe me that this is good." it doesn't improve my musical experience at all. It just makes me think, "Maybe you listened to too many scores, so that some reception nerve got lost."

[Thor 7,478]

1 minute ago, GerateWohl said:

That was my point. I am in that regard interested in others' opinions. I described the rare case where someone is knowledgable enough to give me context, background information and knowledge about a work that wakes my interest and enriches or changes the musical experience. If somebody just tells me: "I am an expert. I have listened to a thousand scores, so you can believe me that this is good." it doesn't improve my musical experience at all. It just makes me think, "Maybe you listened to too many scores, so that some reception nerve got lost."

 

Oh, definitely. Authority should come naturally and organically from when you talk about something, not by making it a stated point-of-departure. That is, in fact, a fallacy.

[GerateWohl 4,344]

17 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Video games scores usually are too epic for my taste. They start at ten and end up at eleven.

That's my experience as well.

Like @Thor described and complained a little about the "longwinded detours that a lot of ornamentation in classical music", video game music mostly has too few of that.

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

5 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

My query was basically, if anyone else has the feeling that he or she should be more selctive with film scores, because usually you do it with any other music you listen to as well.

 

Disclaimer: LOOOONG post warning! Surely the longest I've written in years. Sorry if its length has maybe caused some of it to seem a bit incoherent.

 

I *have* become much more selective when it comes to film music - or rather, I have become more selective when it comes to film music of the sort I "grew up with", and *much* more selective when it comes to current film music.

 

I've been thinking about going into more detail about this topic myself, and may have sometimes mentioned it in passing (but the days when I started long, in-depth film music "theory" posts by myself are long gone). I think the situation today is much different than it was some 30 years ago. I don't think being a film music fan "makes sense" anymore, but I think it did before the new millennium.

 

There's two sides to it: On the one hand, the typical Hollywood film score (which could be considered a genre) was born from European classical and opera music and is thus a direct continuation of Romantic music (or, as Mauceri sees it, the actual apex (along with other forms of its era) of Romantic music). It was quick to assimilate all kinds of other genres and influences, which is part of what makes it appealing, and also stand out; but for a long time it was still broadly "classical music" in the sense that a film score as a complete work, with its themes and their development, had a general structure not unlike that of other classical forms. Yes, it may have "compromised" some of them for the need of immediacy and brevity, but even more economic composers like Goldsmith (who in the 60s and 70s was very careful and deliberate in his spotting and often left half the film entirely unscored) usually took care to keep the score a coherent musical work.

 

Certainly, by far not *all* scores back then were as structurally sound or musically interesting. But because composers back then were still generally "classically trained", and because the stylistic range of film music was still much more limited than today, it's easy to still view the whole field as a kind of genre, with an overall quite high standard according to common qualities. That's why, even though I to an extent agree with the somewhat elitist "classical" view that music (or at least, "classical" music - in the sense of a lengthy, coherent work that bears repeated listening and live re-interpretations over many decades) has certain standards, one of them being structure, I feel that it's mostly incorrectly used as an argument against film music - because good film music, especially back then, still has plenty of those qualities.

 

Post-60s-ish, the situation becomes more muddled, with a) studios discovering hit songs and compromising the musical structure of scores by demanding a theme song no matter what - and the subsequent rise of the songtrack (I think a songtrack can be great for the film when it fits the film, and can make a great album, but it doesn't often make for great "film music" in any way that makes sense as a categorisation (and as the songs are usually pre-existing, it's actually *not* film music at all)), and b) the rise of jazz, funk, & co overshadowing the "classical orchestral film score" as the standard form (or the key to defining the increasingly vague genre of "film music"). But still, those scores (or at least those that are still known today) were *formally* not that different from the traditional late-/post-Romantic scores from before, and thus the "classical-ness" of film music was still a thing, and being a "soundtrack fan" still made sense.

 

The 70s of course brought the big revival of the big orchestral score that would continue until the mid-90s or so. With it came a preference for *long* scores, so they still tended to have strong structure, at the very least one imposed by the film's narrative (and because that's what the music is based on, it's still my main argument for why C&C releases make musical sense for many of these scores). At the same time, film music had become more commercially available (especially in its form as actual self-contained scores, rather than re-recorded short suites or theme compilations), so for the first time the type of "soundtrack fan" that many of us think of when hearing the term was actively catered to by album releases and (possibly beginning with Williams's Boston Pops tenure) actual film music concerts (even if would take two more decades for them to slowly take off internationally).

 

Yet at that time we also see a change of generations, with many of the remaining giants of film music dying, and many of the newer generation having grown up on film music and fewer of them having "classical" training. As a result, Hollywood film music as a genre became increasingly self-referential, and at least in some cases (or perhaps just in more cases than earlier), the mark of a film score became "sounding like film music" (and actually sounding like other *film music* rather than, as the term often means, just standing in the post-Romantic European tradition). Perhaps it's just because I'm more aware of the range of film music from that era than I am of the lesser works from earlier decades, but my impression is that this also brought, in many cases, a significant loss of structure and "musical purpose" that continues to this day.

 

Like many of us, I grew up in the 80s and 90s, and having been introduced to orchestral music by John Williams, I immediately got hooked on film music and gobbled it all up - everything from Korngold to Silvestri & Co. There was little need for being selective because being a "soundtrack fan" still made sense at that time, and because without a few decades of experience with this kind of music, most of it was similarly exciting. In retrospect, having become familiar with much more music and beginning to see how in the history of music one thing led to another, quite a few of these early favourites have become significantly less interesting, and if I encountered them for the first time today, I would certainly be more selecting and not as easily wowed by every score I got excited about then. But a lot of it was (and remains) of course still great and the older masters and at least a few of the newcomers kept writing great music that, with all the non-classical influences it embraced, still had enough in common to view it as a genre.

 

But film, with advances in sound recording and mixing, had become more and more able to stand on its own without the constant support of music, and the resulting changes in how scenes were staged and timed often made the traditional orchestral/melodic score stand out too much. The slow comeback of songtracks further caused through-composed scores to gradually fall out of favour. A few of the old masters were able to adapt - e.g. Goldsmith, who kept writing some of his best scores in the 90s (although they were now mostly limited to films that allowed for somewhat prominent music, and the rest got scores that were of fine craftsmanship and supported their films well, but are hardly significant in his overall oeuvre - Basic Instinct is a rare exception that bridges these two worlds). Others, like Williams, mostly stuck to what they were used to, but as a result had a gradually shrinking pool of potential projects that were compatible with their approach (let's call them "traditionalists" in this context).

 

Since then, the need for music in films, and the room afforded it, have become even less, and the advances in (especially) editing technology and the switch from film to digital also means that the cases where a composer has enough time to view a (rough version of) a film, come up with a coherent musical concept, and write a structured score that is substantial enough to stand on its own, and to have that vision stay mostly intact through the editing process to the final score as ultimately recorded, have become very few. As a result, most "traditionalists" have been either driven out of the industry, or have simply lost the will to deal with it, because (I imagine) the creation of typical film score no longer holds much *musical* appeal for a composer. Williams is one of the very few of his kind who still stick to it (until now at least), and he has only been able to stay alive in this field for so long because his artistry as a composer and his fame both so far exceed most of his peers that he's almost without competition in those projects that still fit his approach (i.e. mainly Spielberg's films and those franchises that he himself helped define in the first place).

 

That's not a problem for most films, mind you. If a film doesn't need strong *musical* support and is well serviced by three brief sound design cues over a 2 hour runtime, then it's perfectly fine for the film if the score doesn't add up to much when played on its own. In fact, a 50 minute orchestral scores would likely be completely out of place and harm the film. Other films may work well with a score that has a strong presence but is mostly sound design - the one time (so far) I watched Dunkirk, I thought it was well supported by its score. I didn't think it was good *music*, but that's a different issue, and the question is whether "better music" really could support the film better (or even as well). That kind of approach isn't necessarily new - Goldsmith's Planet of the Apes, to a majority of the audience, probably isn't much more than sound design. That it is also a substantial musical work of its own is because Goldsmith was a composer who was trained to write substantial music.

 

(I apologise for my repeated use of the term "sound design". I'm aware of that a) sound design can still be musically relevant and that b) my own musical preferences likely make rather prejudiced against at least some forms of sound design that others consider perfectly fine everyday listening music. The fact remains that I think Zimmer has written some fine music, and that some of his big hits are horrible and musically "bad" - and that Dunkirk has a score that I believe isn't good music, but is a good film score)

 

Ultimately, the point I end up with is that today's film scores don't have any requirement to be good *music* to do their intended job well, and even when they're decidedly "musical", the film may not afford (or need) the space for enough music to create a score that is musically coherent and substantial enough to stand on its own. And that's fine for most films (the problem is when a film *does* need (or want) the support of a strongly musical score, but modern production schedules and the remaining pool of experienced composers prevents it from getting one - but in the grand scheme of things, those films are exceptions, even if they are those that film music enthusiasts naturally latch on to).

 

The sad part is that I think film music used to be a *musically* important art form, with some of the 20th century's best composers writing some of the era's best music in it. That simply is no longer the case. I think in a way, perhaps by necessity, film *music* is becoming extinct - or rather, it had only ever become relevant by a necessity that no longer exists in most modern films.

 

There is still fine film *music* written today, and there probably will be as long as film exists. But there's much less of it than there used to be, because a) there was more need for it before, b) more highly talented composers worked in the field, and c) production schedules mostly no longer allow composers (no matter how talented) to craft elaborate musical works. Also as a result, experience film composers are in most ways that matter just as disadvantaged as artists relatively or totally unexperienced with creating a film scores. In the heyday of the Hollywood film score, it was unlikely for inexperienced composers to write a film score that did what the film needed and what the producers expected. Ergo, films were scored by film composers, which brought (or perhaps imposed) a certain stylistic coherence to the art form. Today, everybody can write a film score - and I really mean "can", as in they are able to provide music or soundscapes that do what the film requires. But that also means that every stylistic coherence the genre once had has now disappeared, to the point where I don't think it can be classified as a genre anymore. And for the same reason, I don't think the term "soundtrack fan" makes sense in today's world anymore.

 

For the same reason, I've become selective to the point where I'm not even selective anymore - I still collect most of what I'm missing from the "old masters", I've lost interest in quite a lof of the newer crowd (some of whom, in retrospect, I don't find as relevant or interesting as I did 20 years ago, when I had knew less music), and side from a few exceptions I've stopped keeping tracking of new film scores altogether. I still listen to tons of film music from up to the early 2000s and some from after that, tons of "classical" music (from the old eras up to contemporary composers), rock/pop/etc from a lot of "classic" (in the other sense) artists and selected active artists (i.e. I do keep track of quite a few active ones, but I don't actively listen to much else that's going on now in the field), and some kinds of harder to categorise stuff (where e.g. to put Vangelis or 80s video game music?). But if a new film or series score grabs my interest, it's not specifically because it's film music, but rather either because it's one of the few remaining cases that are reminiscent of "traditional" film music (like McCreary's The Rings of Power), or simply because it's good music that happens to have been written for a film.

 

4 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Video games scores usually are too epic for my taste. They start at ten and end up at eleven.

 

4 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Like @Thor described and complained a little about the "longwinded detours that a lot of ornamentation in classical music", video game music mostly has too few of that.

 

That's not accurate, because there are lots of different kinds of video games that have even more different kinds of music - and, more importantly, differently structured music. You have big, epic, bombast scores (some of them good, some of them copying the worst tendencies from modern Hollywood blockbuster scores) written in a very dynamic structure, and you have lyrical, through-composed scores with little or no dynamic branching - and everything in between.

 

It's arguably even less of a genre than film music is now, which is part of the reason why I don't follow it actively. Also, if you look at the blockbusters with prominent scores, both films and games nowadays by and large have musical styles that I mostly find not appealing, and frequently musically inferior (trying not to be elitist, I think it's not so much the style of the music that makes it inferior as it is the incongruence between something that (in my ears) seems to aim for an "epicness" that in part requires a certain structure and development, and a lack of "classical" training and skill of some of the composers, combined with certain modern stylistic aspects that I think stem from that, like the over-reliance of drums as the propelling force of an orchestral piece).

 

But also, one of the most fascinating aspects of many video game scores is non-linear writing, with dynamic branching and looping - and that same aspect requires *much* more curating when the music is prepped for standalone listening than a film score does. With a game score, the final composition often consists only of bits and pieces plus rule sets for stitching them together. In album terms, "listening experience" not just means deciding how much of it "worthy" of being listened to, or rearranging sections to impose a new musical structure on the work (the necessity and perhaps "validity" of which for linear film scores I believe depends very much on how structured the score as written is in the first place), but rather *choosing* bits and pieces and creating a structure in the first place. As a result, it's much harder to translate those kinds of game scores into linear albums, and the results depend *very* much on the curating skills of whoever produces the album (and possibly also on how well the score can be accurately represented in a non-dynamic fashion in the first place).

4 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Recommendations?

 

Some classics that work fine in linear format:

• The Monkey Island scores (especially 1-3, and probably 5, but we're still waiting for the standalone soundtrack for that)
• Grim Fandango
• Chris Huelsbeck's Turrican scores (originally written for Amiga, but since remade for CD; the "original sound" versions are also available and also good)

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

9 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Disclaimer: LOOOONG post warning!

 

Paging @bruce marshall!

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

…and despite my long rambling, I've now thought about something else that I didn't really go into: What *is* a soundtrack fan?

 

Being a film score fan could mean any of these things:

1. Enjoying film scores in the context of the film
2. Enjoying film scores on their own, but conscious of the film as context for the music
3. Enjoying film scores on their own, as pure music, entirely without the context of the film

There's another common reason why people buy soundtracks: Liking a film and wanting to listen to the music to re-experience, in some way or other, the film. I don't think that alone makes anyone a soundtrack fan if none of the above points are involved as well.

 

Personally, I'd subscribe to all three points, but to varying degrees. Mostly I'm in this for the music (in fact, it was film music that turned me on to many films). As with all kinds of "good" music, I'm convinced that good film *music* can stand on its own, and can be listened to and enjoyed even if you don't know the film. I have tons of soundtrack CDs for films I've never seen, and some of them are favourites. In this I think I'm entirely in agreement with Thor.

 

However, I also think that any kind of music that wasn't written as pure absolute music has an extra built-in dimension that comes from the programme it was written to. A choral piece, be it religious or secular, has more depth and musical meaning when you understand or know the lyrics (regardless of whether you personally subscribe to the *meaning* of the lyrics). An opera can be enjoyed as pure music, but knowing the story gives it more meaning, and understanding the lyrics and stage directions at least to a degree unfolds the full dramatic intent of the music - that scream in Salome would be half as chilling without knowing about the murder that's happening in the story (also, Strauss deliberately requested details about the stage layout from his librettist Hoffmansthal so that he would know how to pace the music). The ongoing (and increasing) fascination of Siegfried's Trauermarsch stems from the fact that it sounds, if you first encounter it without the context of the opera, as a wonderful self-contained piece of music, but when  you learn about the opera, its leitmotifs and their associations, you realise that the march is in fact made up of a *lot* of these motifs, and that they actually tell a dramatic story of their own - a full additional layer of *musically created* drama hidden in the "nice sounding" music. Likewise, I think that knowledge of the film can strongly enhance the experience of listening to its score (and that's why information about the films in the C&C booklets are relevant). That's *not* the same as using the music to re-experience the film. Rather, it's using the film to fully experience the music. And for that, the quality of the film itself is irrelevant (as long as it is well-scored) - I'm not sure I believe in some people's idea that seeing a bad film to a score you like could harm your reception of the music. Yes, I "see" the corresponding film scenes in my mind when I listen to Rescue from Cloud City, and they enhance the music. I happen to like the film in this case, so perhaps that adds the the enjoyment a bit, but mainly it's a matter of musical context. I also enjoy certain parts of the TPM score more when I know the scenes they were written for, and I don't much like the film in this case. I find Goldsmith's The Omen gains some extra depth when listened to with an awareness of the story, even though I think the film isn't all that good (in fact, it's the music combined with the story that sometimes gives me an urge to view the film, but I'm always a bit disappointed by the film itself afterwards. I don't even think it's particularly well-spotted (or perhaps the music isn't well edited), but that doesn't taint my enjoyment of the music).

 

And of course, enjoying the music, and enjoying films, I also decidedly enjoy the music when viewing the film. More so when I also enjoy the film, but as long as I can focus on the music, I can enjoy a good score in a film I don't like. That's why LtP concerts make sense.

 

Going back to my claim that the term "soundtrack fan" doesn't make sense anymore in the context of modern scores and their lack of a unifying stylistic or formal continuity or genre, I have to amend it a bit: One can of course still be a soundtrack fan if the real interest isn't the music but the effect of music and sound in the film. After all, I suppose that's also what drives many artists who are not normally film composers to write a film score. So in a modern context, someone can be a soundtrack fan specifically in the context of point 1 of my above classification. But based solely on the current soundtrack world, I think the term makes no sense in relation to points 2 and 3, because whatever musical enjoyment you derive from the soundtrack depends on musical preferences which are not, for better or worse, related to what modern day soundtracks are about.

 

(And I hope that concludes my manifesto)

[GerateWohl 4,344]

Thank you @Marian Schedenig for these insights. Especially your first post contains so many great lines that bring straight to the point, what I feel about this subject.

And thank you for the game score recommendations. I will check them out.

[enderdrag64 624]

I do think it's an interesting question.

 

I got into this hobby differently than most everyone else who's replied - I'm a lot younger than most of the people here, and so I grew up being exposed to "sound design" scores. Believe it or not, the first score to leave an impression on me growing up was actually Hans Zimmer's Inception. That said, it wasn't the unmusical BWAMS that I liked or connected to, but the few themes that are in the film, especially the Time suite. 

 

I still don't think that it's a terrible score, and it's perfectly fine music for listening to while doing other tasks or working, even if the action cues aren't exceptional music for listening. It's certainly not unlistenable, as some would make it out to be. 

 

But the *reason* I would listen to it is probably because I liked the film first, and I'd seen it enough times that I grew an attachment to the music in the most emotionally resonant parts (such as the Time theme).

 

When I think about most of the film music that I like today, I can find similar roots for them. My first exposure to John Williams' music was actually LEGO Star Wars on the PS2 - I played that game before I'd even seen the films. So many of my most beloved scores -  Murray Gold's Doctor Who, Williams' Harry Potter scores, Daft Punk's Tron Legacy - for each there is a strong associated attachment to the film or show from which they came.

 

I never even considered listening to music from a show or film I'd never seen until coming across this forum. Does that mean that I'm not a soundtrack fan?

[Richard Penna 3,676]

2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Enjoying film scores on their own, but conscious of the film as context for the music

 

This is probably closest to my approach. Regardless of how I discover a score, whether it be a concept album on Spotify or watching a film and liking the music, I'm listening to the music as music. Sure, I might be remembering scenes along with the music and picturing what's happening if I know the context well, but I'm not in the mindset of reliving the film scene by scene - more enjoying the story/atmosphere at a macro level.

 

Something I also strongly do, at least for well-conceived music, is picture places, situations or scenes for piece of music, such that an innocent piece of underscore can take on a strong meaning even without my having seen the film - it just has to be pressing the right buttons, mentally for me. Even if I've seen the film I can often still apply my own imagery because the emotion of the music is working on a larger level.

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

20 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

That is an interesting point, that also explains to me, if a score neither attracts me directly in an emotional way, nor does trigger any intellectual buttons, why should I pay any attention to it anyway.

 

My query was basically, if anyone else has the feeling that he or she should be more selctive with film scores, because usually you do it with any other music you listen to as well. Nobody buys records of band that one has no connection or doesn't particularly like just because it is in the same genre as bands you like.

 

As I don't have the burdon like you to deal with this music professionally, which requres a certain openness, and I just deal with it for my private enjoyment. And I found myself taking different mesures here and there, thinking "This is a score, so potentially something I like".

 

But meanwhile I say, no. The simple fact that this is a film score says neither that I potentially like it nor that it is something of a certain quality. There is such dumb musicand as a music listener I don't care, that this might support a movie in a special way, because when I listen to it, I don't have that context and the music must stand on its own.

And I want to get impressed by music. Not less.

If it doesn't manage to do so, why deal with it?

 

Of course I had also the experience, that there was music, that I was not very interested in, but a fan or connoisseur managed to explain to me what is interesting or special or particularly good about this or that music.

But here come two other things into play.

The one, that you know from our separate discussion, where I expressed my disappointment with the explanations and expositions of so called experts about filmscores.

And the other thing is, that with age and experience and the conciousness that listening time is precious time, you experience less and less completely new surprises musically.

 

This whole thing I have a lot of the time. Something in me think "it's a film score, so I like it".

But as you said, film score are so many different genres that it's impossible to like everything 

I like some rock bands, but not all. So why should I like all film scores.

 

It's indeed a very interesting point. I might have some more thought later, but you really got me thinking

[JTN 2,002]

https://www.lukaskendall.com/post/why-do-we-like-film-music

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Wrong answer, at least for me.

[ThePenitentMan1 742]

12 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

I never even considered listening to music from a show or film I'd never seen until coming across this forum. Does that mean that I'm not a soundtrack fan?

 

I'll be honest here: listening to scores for films I've never seen usually does absolutely nothing for me.  I need story beats to latch onto, or else I just don't get what the music's trying to convey.

 

If that makes me a simpleton, a moron, or "not part of the cool kid's club" so be it.  But that's just the way I am.

 

I remember the first time I heard the How To Train Your Dragon OST before I'd seen the film.  In that first listening session, listening to This Is Berk was a chaotic experience and I stopped before I even made it halfway through the track.  After seeing the film, the score quickly became a favorite of mine, though admittedly I don't listen to it as much now as I used to.

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

I do have that a lot of the time.

It's sometimes hard to connect with a score when you haven't seen how it works in context

[GerateWohl 4,344]

The first film score albums I had hardly contained a track that was a one to one representation of the original film cue. Like on the Raiders of the Lost Ark OST "The Well of the Souls" consisted half of the actual Well of the Souls and half of The Idol's Temple from the beginning of the movie. The Shark Cage Fugue on the OST is a concert suite, so just the beginning apears in the movie. So anyway I started making my own movies in my head inspired by the originals to that music as the music didn't fit the actual scenes from my memory. 

 

And I said it before. In the 80s I sometimes went to the cinema mainly for listening to a good score to the images. Wouldn't happen today for sure.

[Andy 4,092]

Wow, some really articulate thoughts from you guys in this provocative thread.  Very nice.  I won't be as articulate, but I'll try to explain my mindset on music vs film music vs orchestral music

 

 

It's good to take a moment and reflect on what you listen to, why, and could you be listening better, right?

 

I like film music for musical storytelling, and the ability to go somewhere, from introducing delicate leitmotifs to building to crescendos.  There's a narrative dynamic range, as well as sonic.

 

I can listen to scores for movies I've never seen, but it's never the same as knowing the film, and wanting to recreate the emotion of the scenes, as Lukas Kendall put it.  Sometimes, if the score is good enough, I can make up my own movie that's better.  But usually, I'll give in and check out the movie to see what it is that the score is trying to say.

 

A few factors drive my psychology, and it might not always make sense, and it probably means I'm missing out on music I might like but:

 

1. FOMO is real.  It's easy to spend time on forums and hear of someone's passion for a score or composer and want to have some of that for my own.  So I try stuff I might not normally, because gosh that person really, really loves it so it must have merit.  Plus it's limited, so I don't want to miss out.

 

2.  Nostalgia is powerful.  My childhood was concurrent with the birth of Star Wars, and this kind of music ignited my love for movie music.  It's never died or diminished.  Since then, I've always felt like I'm chasing a high.  Trying to find the next thing that will make those ears feel good.

 

3. Rock N Roll is okay, but I like to be different.  I grew up with an older sister who loved disco and 70s rock.  So playing Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica 8 Tracks was my way to rebel against that.  I enjoy the Beatles and Elvis and a few 70s and 80s bands from my teen years, but I always prided myself as being in sort of a small club that listened to movie music.  I remember usenet groups in the early internet and enjoying Lukas and Ford Thaxton sparring with each other on those black monitors.  Being a proud member of nerd culture has always made me defiant against the masses that listen to rock.  I'm probably missing out on some great stuff because of stubborn pride.

 

4.  Classical is too old, and sounds too stuffy.  Childish, I know.  But I just can't get into it the way I do with cinematic music.  If there isn't a story that is told in a passionate, adventuresome, or friendly way, I'm not interested.  Also, I like musical storytelling.  If I don't know the story of the piece, it might not be easy for me to enjoy it.  This is one reason I like physical media, is because liner notes can fill you in on the "libretto" of what you're listening to.  Very helpful with movies I haven't seen.  Classical may have that, but it's a tough world of music to break into, especially when comparing it to a lifetime of listening to film music.  Funny, I'm now getting on in age where I'm the demographic I always thought of who enjoys straight classical.  But It's just too raw for me.  Film music seems to distill things down into digestible idioms that I can latch onto.  I have to force myself to listen to JW non film concert works, because, well it's Williams, and I'm always looking for those characteristic nuances that still sound like him.  I hope this one doesn't make anyone think less of me.

 

5.  Jazz is okay, but there's so much of it (same with Classical) that I don't feel like I have the time or energy to explore such large worlds.  Again, one of the neat things about film music is it's about being in a small club.  Not elitist, necessarily, but it's a small community.  And that's appealing.  I like small universes when I'm enjoying fiction.  TV shows are usually peak for me before they get too many episodes in.  Same with movies or books or comic series.  I like collecting things (mostly toys), and the best part is when the set of what you're collecting is small, and just growing.  When it gets too large, I sometimes step back and realize I've passed some peak of enjoyment.

 

6.  I'm okay with some songtracks, but usually only for movies I really love, like Flash Gordon.  But hey, half of that is orchestral too.  I did catch myself saying blah a lot the other day browsing a used CD store that had very few orchestral scores mixed in with all the multiple copies of Dirty Dancing.

 

So yeah, that's what's swirling in my head right now.  I like movies.  I like orchestral film music that captured my imagination as a child.  I like being in this club with you fine people.