new discovery - original Cantina Band cue title

[enderdrag64 796]

JKMS recently posted a video where they pretended to throw out the original star wars sheets as part of a "spring cleaning"

 

In the video you can see at the end the cover page for the sheet music for one of the cantina band cues, which I don't believe has ever leaked:

 

[Jay 38,747]

So it was 5M3/3A before rebalancing, and 5M6/4M1 after {typo I guess, should be 5M6/6M1.  Unless they meant 5M4/6M1?)

 

And it was called... Monkey Band?  or Jolly Jazzers?  Or both?

 

Is this actually "Cantina Band #2", not "Cantina Band"?

[BrotherSound 2,289]

Hmm, there’s an odd gap before Cantina Band in both the old and new numbering:

 

Old

4M3 The Princess Reappears

4M4 A Home Destroyed

5M1 A Hive of Villainy

5M2 ??

5M3/5M3A Cantina Band

5M4 Cantina Band 2

5M5 ??

5M6 Inner City

6M1 Blasting Away

6M2 The Destruction of Alderon

 

New

4M4R A Home Destroyed Pt. I

5M1 A Home Destroyed Pt. II

5M2 A Hive Of Villainy

5M3 ??

5M4/6M1 Cantina Band

6M2 Cantina Band 2

6M3 Inner City

6M4 Blasting Away

6M5 The Destruction of Alderon

[Jay 38,747]

Not if this sheet music is the first page of Cantina Band 2, not the first page of Cantina Band

[BrotherSound 2,289]

Just now, Jay said:

Not if this sheet music is the first page of Cantina Band 2, not the first page of Cantina Band

That would fix the old numbering, but still leave 6M2 unaccounted for in the new numbering.

[The Great Gonzales 6,019]

Could it be both cues?

[Jay 38,747]

Blasting Away is 6M1 not 6M4

[BrotherSound 2,289]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

Blasting Away is 6M1 not 6M4

It’s 6M1 in the old numbering, but should be 6M4 New, because ‘The Destruction of Alderon’ is 6M5 New.

[Jay 38,747]

One has nothing to do with the other

[BrotherSound 2,289]

13 minutes ago, Jay said:

One has nothing to do with the other

Ok: we know ‘Is It Bird’ was 6M3 Old and became 7M1 New. The Destruction of Alderon is 6M5 New, so must have been 6M2 Old. Why isn’t it reasonable to infer Blasting Away is likely 6M1 Old and 6M4 New?

 

What’s puzzling about the old and new numbering is they make it seem the film became longer, which is the opposite I would have expected given the removal of the Biggs and Anchorhead scenes, the original Jabba scene, etc.

[Jay 38,747]

How's this

 

Title	Original	Revision	Rebalance
The Princess Appears	3M1	3M1 Rev	no change
Lost R2	3M2	3M2 Rev	no change
The Sand Speeder	3M3	3M3 Rev	no change
The Sandman Attacks	3M4/4M1	3M4/4M1 Rev	no change
Obi-Wan Kenobi	4M2		no change
The Force	4M2A		no change
The Princess Reappears	4M3		no change
A Home Destroyed	4M4	4M4 Rev	b1-14B recorded as 4M4
			b31-72 / 15-30 recorded as 4M4A
A Hive of Villainy	5M1		unknown
"Cantina Band" (orig title unknown)	unknown {5M2?}		unknown
Monkey Band / Jolly Jazzers	5M3/3A		5M4/6M1
The Inner City	5M6	5M6 Rev	unknown
Blasting Away	6M1		unknown
The Destruction of Alderon	unknown {6M2?}		6M5 New
Is It a Bird?	6M3		7M1 New
The Hatch Opens	7M1		7M2 New
The Mouse Robot	7M2		unknown

 

The gap between the Cantina music and "The Inner City" could be explained by the Jabba scene being spotted, but then deleted before scoring

[Naïve Old Fart 10,218]

"Alderon"?

[Jay 38,747]

Yea, he spelled it wrong

 

[BrotherSound 2,289]

1 minute ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

"Alderon"?

That’s how JW spelled it. See also: “Darth Vadar”.

[Jay 38,747]

Anyways, the 4 instruments listed in the bottom right of the screenshot in the main post, does that help identify which Cantina Band cue this is?

[Naïve Old Fart 10,218]

Didn't he also write "Dual Of The Fates"?

[Jay 38,747]

No.

 

He wrote "The Great Dual", for one of the end battle cues

 

 

 

The original name of what we know as "Duel of the Fates" was simply "End Credit"

 

[Naïve Old Fart 10,218]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

No.

 

Yes.

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

He wrote "The Great Dual"

 

That's what I said

3 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 "Dual Of The Fates"

 

[Jay 38,747]

Huh?

[BrotherSound 2,289]

4 minutes ago, Jay said:

Anyways, the 4 instruments listed in the bottom right of the screenshot in the main post, does that help identify which Cantina Band cue this is?

Nah, I believe their instrumentation is identical, the same as in the first published arrangement of Cantina Band:

 

1 B-flat Soprano Sax

2 E-flat Alto Saxes

1 B-flat Clarinet

1 Trumpet

Synth Bass

Piano

Steel Drums

Drum Set

Percussion

[Jay 38,747]

Bummer

[Luke Skywalker 1,925]

Could it be :

 

Monkey band #1 - Title unkown

Monkey band #2 - Jolly Jazzers

 

and cantina band was the name he used for the ost and subsequent referenfes…

[Jay 38,747]

I dunno but I snagged some better pics of the page from the video

 

[MrJosh 895]

From this day forth, I will refer to Cantina Band as Monkey Band!

[Datameister 2,218]

I wonder if Jolly Jazzers could refer to the real-world players? It looks like it could be a title of sorts for the instrumentation section.

[Jay 38,747]

If you google Jolly Jazzers, there's all kinds of results

 

It's its worth nothing that one handwriting says the name of the film, the reel and part number, and "Monkey Band"

While separate handwriting noted the recording date and time, "Jolly Jazzers", and the instrument list

[Score 772]

42 minutes ago, Datameister said:

I wonder if Jolly Jazzers could refer to the real-world players? It looks like it could be a title of sorts for the instrumentation section.

 

My bet is that "Monkey Band" / "Jolly Jazzers" was a jokey way of indicating the different instrumentation for those two cues, as opposed to the full orchestra used in the rest of the score. It's written exactly on the top of the instrument list, on the right side of the page, and not below the reel number, where it would be more natural to put a cue title.

 

 

The instrumentation that can be read in @Jay's second image (Bb trumpet, Bb clarinet, Bb soprano sax, 2 Alto saxes, Drum kit, 2 percussions, ARP Bass Synth, and Fender Bass) is similar to that of the published Cantina Band piece (given in @BrotherSound 's post above), except that the published score has a Piano and no ARP Bass Synth. The Piano part is not audible in the recording (so, it was an addition for the concert arrangement), while the ARP Bass Synth is audible - I think it just doubles the Fender Bass. In the published score, Percussion 1 always plays the Steel Drums, while Percussion 2 plays Boo-Bams, a Little Metallic Rattle, and Temple Blocks. The second cue, Cantina Band #2, is not published.

 

[MrJosh 895]

The Monkey Band cues are such a cool, unique piece of film music and star wars history. 

 

I hope that when the Mike Matessino produced scores come out someday, that Monkey Band No. 2 can be presented without the fade-out, just to hear how those guys ended it. And also, if there are any other cool raw takes worth including of that small group of musicians, that they could be included...kind of like how the historic recording of the Star Trek TMP Main Title sessions bits were included on that LLL set. 

 

Just having a nerdy fan daydream for a second. 

[Davis 2,756]

At this point I’m beginning to think that Bob Iger and Kathleen Kennedy “hate” John Williams. I simply can’t find any other explanation why they aren’t letting Mike and LLL (or even WDR) release the original Star Wars Trilogy scores. They didn’t last year when Star Wars had its 45th Anniversary and it doesn’t look like they are this year on Return of the Jedi’s 40th Anniversary. 
It’s like they just don’t care at all. It’s both sad and very disrespectful towards Maestro Williams. And the fans of these legendary scores.

[HunterTech 1,154]

Isn't the likelihood more that it's JW himself who is hesitant if Matessino can directly say that he and others from the studio know people want it? Especially if they were able to let Solo and RO be expanded, so there's certainly more to it than we might be able to see. Besides, neither Iger (who barely came back btw) nor Kennedy have their names on the Mondo release of the latter, so I question if they even would have any investment on the matter outside of the packaging and marketing.

[oierem 173]

On 03/04/2023 at 10:06 PM, Jay said:

How's this

 

Title	Original	Revision	Rebalance
The Princess Appears	3M1	3M1 Rev	no change
Lost R2	3M2	3M2 Rev	no change
The Sand Speeder	3M3	3M3 Rev	no change
The Sandman Attacks	3M4/4M1	3M4/4M1 Rev	no change
Obi-Wan Kenobi	4M2		no change
The Force	4M2A		no change
The Princess Reappears	4M3		no change
A Home Destroyed	4M4	4M4 Rev	b1-14B recorded as 4M4
			b31-72 / 15-30 recorded as 4M4A
A Hive of Villainy	5M1		unknown
"Cantina Band" (orig title unknown)	unknown {5M2?}		unknown
Monkey Band / Jolly Jazzers	5M3/3A		5M4/6M1
The Inner City	5M6	5M6 Rev	unknown
Blasting Away	6M1		unknown
The Destruction of Alderon	unknown {6M2?}		6M5 New
Is It a Bird?	6M3		7M1 New
The Hatch Opens	7M1		7M2 New
The Mouse Robot	7M2		unknown

 

The gap between the Cantina music and "The Inner City" could be explained by the Jabba scene being spotted, but then deleted before scoring

The Jabba scene was deleted long before Williams spotted the film. (Oct/Nov.76 vs. Jan.77)

 

However, keep in mind that when Williams spotted the film, the cantina reshoots hadn't yet taken place (not even the musical band was in the scene!). Considerig that the whole sequence only has source music, it is possible that Williams didn't know how many source cues would be needed for the final scene, and they left a gap in the numbering, just in case...

[Davis 2,756]

2 hours ago, HunterTech said:

I question if they even would have any investment on the matter

I think Iger has a big say in it, and KK as the head of Lucasfilm has too. If they greenlight it, it happens. I would say it’s 99% up to them. 
 

Both Solo and R1 are Disney Star Wars-Iger-Kennedy projects they’re interested in. Williams’ OT scores are Lucas-related that would celebrate George Lucas and his original films that Iger and Kennedy don’t seem to like too much, they want to push their own new stuff.  

[Tallguy 4,097]

3 hours ago, JTW said:

At this point I’m beginning to think that Bob Iger and Kathleen Kennedy hate John Williams.

 

Whether it's creative or financial, I'm getting that vibe. The May the Fourth Day (Star Wars day is in two weeks) video that had NO STAR WARS MUSIC in it? That was just weird.

 

I'm OK with new Star Wars projects that try something that wasn't invented in 1977. But when you're directly referencing those films and those eras? It's like watching the very first Star Wars trailer before Williams was involved. And we all know how great that was.

[HunterTech 1,154]

45 minutes ago, JTW said:

Both Solo and R1 are Disney Star Wars-Iger-Kennedy projects they’re interested in. Williams’ OT scores are Lucas-related that would celebrate George Lucas and his original films that Iger and Kennedy don’t seem to like too much, they want to push their own new stuff.  

So why give RotJ a theatrical re-release then? That's a pretty heavy celebration of the original franchise vision right there.

Also, do remember that Solo was a box office disappointment, and only got a deluxe edition because Powell pushed for it (with the same likely being the case for Giacchino on RO). So given those particular facts, I'm finding it difficult not to conclude that it isn't up to the composers to have any considerable say on the matter. The only exception would be Griskey's KOTOR II, since he was surprised by its release (though it is yet another example of them acknowledging a pre-Disney Lucasfilm product).

There absolutely is plenty you can knock both on in their time at the company, yet all this can amount to is just speculation ultimately.

[Brando 2,044]

Mike could very well be knee deep in SW expansions right now, and his answer will still be 'no, that's currently not happening' because he can't answer that. As he also said, we must have patience.

[Tallguy 4,097]

23 minutes ago, Brando said:

Mike could very well be knee deep in SW expansions right now, and his answer will still be 'no, that's currently not happening' because he can't answer that. As he also said, we must have patience.

 

Any day now. (Unlike when I say "All part of the plan" I really mean that it could be any day now. Or years from now. We can't know.) (But I want to know, and I want it to be now. Or soon. But really, now.)

[Davis 2,756]

50 minutes ago, Brando said:

Mike could very well be knee deep in SW expansions right now, and his answer will still be 'no, that's currently not happening' because he can't answer that. As he also said, we must have patience.

I think Mike has already finished making them years ago and they’re waiting on his HDD for Iger and/or Kennedy to give the go. 
 

Since I and everyone else have been waiting for decades, many of us for 46 years for these releases, it’s fair to say that patience is all we have. But I don’t believe it has anything to do with patience anymore, but whether Bob Iger and Kathleen Kennedy want it to happen or not.

[SilverTrumpet 642]

4 hours ago, HunterTech said:

So why give RotJ a theatrical re-release then? That's a pretty heavy celebration of the original franchise vision right there.

 

$$$$$$$$$$

 

A re-release of a beloved movie makes you bank, and it did in this case. A soundtrack release doesn't make you nearly as much, no matter how much we here desperately want it. 

[Tallguy 4,097]

52 minutes ago, JTW said:

I think Mike has already finished making them years ago and they’re waiting on his HDD for Iger and/or Kennedy to give the go. 

 

It was sitting right next to his mix for Star Trek: The Motion Picture Directors Edition. (One of these things is kinda true.)

[Davis 2,756]

6 hours ago, HunterTech said:

So why give RotJ a theatrical re-release then? That's a pretty heavy celebration of the original franchise vision right there.

I wouldn't call a theatrical re-release for a week and a commemorative poster that heavy a celebration. Besides, Star Wars (Ep. IV) was celebrated last year, too, but I wouldn't call that heavy, either. If Star Wars was still in the hands of George Lucas, I'm sure we would've gotten a much bigger celebration.

Iger and Kennedy do what they have to, because they're not that stupid to think that Lucas' films aren't still regarded as the greatest and quintessential Star Wars. 

 

I do remember that Solo was a box office flop, but Powell could only push for a deluxe edition because Iger and/or Kennedy allowed it. 

6 hours ago, HunterTech said:

Also, do remember that Solo was a box office disappointment, and only got a deluxe edition because Powell pushed for it (with the same likely being the case for Giacchino on RO). So given those particular facts, I'm finding it difficult not to conclude that it isn't up to the composers to have any considerable say on the matter.

I sense a little contradiction here. If Solo and R1 got deluxe editions because the composers pushed for it, than how isn't it up to the composers to have any say on the matter? They pushed for it according to you, and they got it. In my opinion because both films are Disney-Iger-Kennedy productions and they wanted their IPs to be celebrated, and don't care too much about George Lucas' original Star Wars productions, even John Williams' scores for the first 6 films.

 

Again, in my opinion, I may be wrong, I hope I'm wrong, and what I REALLY hope is that we'll soon be getting complete remastered editions of all of John Williams' 3 or 6 or 9 Star Wars scores.

But considering how Disney-Iger-Kennedy missed the opportunity on the 40th Anniversary of Star Wars and it seems like they're missing it this year on Jedi's 40th Anniversary, I doubt it will happen in the near future. 

 

 

 

 

[Richard Penna 3,999]

On 11/05/2023 at 11:20 AM, JTW said:

I think Iger has a big say in it, and KK as the head of Lucasfilm has too. If they greenlight it, it happens. I would say it’s 99% up to them.

 

My pet theory about all this is that JW doesn't think they need reissuing, or doesn't want it (variation thereof) and they won't do anything without his blessing. I might suggest you're looking for someone other than your favourite composer to 'blame' for disrespecting his music.

 

Actually, I'd wager that Iger is far, far too high up the chain to know or care about soundtrack releases.

[Brónach 1,304]

The disney guy probably assumes it's all released

 

i think JW himself isn't all into the idea

[Holko 10,006]

From his OSTs we know he hates his own music but come on! There is no fucking way he'd approve all these expansions that are coming out but not friggin STAR WARS, 5 of 9 of which have never been expanded, and even for the OT, just show him what the RotJ SE sounds like and what it could sound like.

[ThePenitentMan1 976]

I don't think the reason we don't have them is because of a key figure being a stick-in-the-mud about it.  The only explanation that makes sense to me is the fact that several elements for a handful of the movies are missing (which has been confirmed many, many times), and these movies are big enough that if they're going to be done, they must be done all at once.  Those missing Last Crusade/RotJ sessions=no modern Star Wars/Indy expansions at all, until either they're found, or until Mike gives up the search and works with what's available.

[Brónach 1,304]

if i were lucasfilm, i'd treat the films separately like an special music event on its own, and make rerecordings as well

[Datameister 2,218]

Plot twist! Mark Graham revealed the original cue title on JW's sketch for Cantina Band #2 on Instagram.

 

Wait for it...

 

Reel 5/6 Part 4/1

Don't Bee That Weigh

 

So maybe "Monkey Band" was a retitle for the full score manuscripts? Either that or it's not the title at all—just a reference to this being a different ensemble on the scoring stage.

[enderdrag64 796]

13 minutes ago, Datameister said:

So maybe "Monkey Band" was a retitle for the full score manuscripts? Either that or it's not the title at all—just a reference to this being a different ensemble on the scoring stage.

Yeah I'm thinking this too. Perhaps Score's original theory was right.

 

so then we've got 

 

5m3-5m3a unknown

5m4-6m1 Don't Bee That Weigh

 

Maybe the first one is also a Benny Goodman joke?

[The Great Gonzales 6,019]

3 hours ago, Datameister said:

Plot twist! Mark Graham revealed the original cue title on JW's sketch for Cantina Band #2 on Instagram.

 

Wait for it...

 

Reel 5/6 Part 4/1

Don't Bee That Weigh

 

So maybe "Monkey Band" was a retitle for the full score manuscripts? Either that or it's not the title at all—just a reference to this being a different ensemble on the scoring stage.

How does Cantina Band 2 being called this, make Cantina Band 1 not Monkey Band, Jolly Jazzers?

[BrotherSound 2,289]

Also worth noting that ‘Don’t Bee That Weigh’ is actually crossed out and ‘The Catina Band Pt. II’ is written in with red ink.

 

 

This is typically what they did with cues selected for album tracks. See for example how ‘The Last Battle Part I’ is written in for 8M2 More Rescue here, which would only make sense in the context of the album track:

 

 

So, it would appear Cantina Band 2 may have originally been intended to feature on the OST, combined in a track with the other Cantina Band tune.

[Datameister 2,218]

2 hours ago, Faleel said:

How does Cantina Band 2 being called this, make Cantina Band 1 not Monkey Band, Jolly Jazzers?

 

Same slate numbers, albeit written differently