Williams "didn't stop until he had written over two hours of music" for Indiana Jones 5

[Alex 2,867]

https://www.cinemablend.com/interviews/indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destinys-director-explains-the-complex-process-of-getting-john-williams-to-score-the-film
 

Quote

Mangold talked about the process of securing Williams, and said:

 “It's even more complex than that. I was thrilled beyond belief, but at first he was going to write some themes, you know, and then hire some people to help arrange it throughout the movie. And then he saw the movie. And then he started writing themes, and then he just didn't stop until he had written over two hours of music. In pencil!”

 

[crumbs 14,668]

13 hours ago, Alex said:

 “It's even more complex than that. I was thrilled beyond belief, but at first he was going to write some themes, you know, and then hire some people to help arrange it throughout the movie. And then he saw the movie. And then he started writing themes, and then he just didn't stop until he had written over two hours of music. In pencil!”

 

Makes me wonder if that Moroccan chase might be a Bill Ross composition? Could explain all the obscure references to past scores, especially if loosely based on a temp track.

[Edmilson 8,544]

13 hours ago, Alex said:

Quote

 “It's even more complex than that. I was thrilled beyond belief, but at first he was going to write some themes, you know, and then hire some people to help arrange it throughout the movie. And then he saw the movie. And then he started writing themes, and then he just didn't stop until he had written over two hours of music. In pencil!”

 

So we almost got a John Powell Indy score? 

[crumbs 14,668]

Just now, Edmilson said:

So we almost got a John Powell Indy score? 

 

More likely a Bill Ross/Obi Wan situation, IMO.

 

I could definitely envisage this happening for the Rey Skywalker or Mangold Star Wars films though. JW contributes a month's work and a few themes, Ross or Powell handle the rest.

[Alex 2,867]

30 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Makes me wonder if that Moroccan chase might be a Bill Ross composition? Could explain all the obscure references to past scores, especially if loosely based on a temp track.

I don’t know. The original music which makes up 90% of that scene is definitely JW. It is just too much in his style. From the flute flourishes to the xylophone beats.

 

Although, after hearing what Bill Ross wrote for Obi-Wan (specifically the track “First Rescue”), I am convinced he may have written “Falcon Flight” from TROS.

[Andy 5,006]

Here’s a fun thought experiment.

 

You are Mangold, sitting down with John to spot the film.  As the Director, what would you ask of him?

 

I would ask him to lean heavily on the March for thrills.  This is Indy’s send off.  Let that theme soar.  But I would ask that he not repeat or quote arrangements from other films (Flight from Peru for example. ) as those scenes are iconic and the music belongs to them. 
 

I would also ask for a percussion heavy ostinato in the classic Desert Chase or Slave Children style. 

[Brando 2,057]

Just now, Andy said:

But I would ask that he not repeat or quote arrangements from other films (Flight from Peru for example. ) as those scenes are iconic and the music belongs to them.

I mostly agree with this. Once I saw pics of the Nazi train, I got excited because that could potentially mean a reprise of some music from the train sequence from TLC. If I was James I don’t even know what I would ask

[TolkienSS 444]

20 hours ago, Edmilson said:

So we almost got a John Powell Indy score? 

 

No offense to John Powell, but nobody in his right mind would prefer him over Williams solo effort.

[Tallguy 4,124]

7 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

No offense to John Powell, but nobody in his right mind would prefer him over Williams solo effort.

 

Both of them in their prime? Williams. At the moment? I could make a case for either.

[Edmilson 8,544]

19 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

No offense to John Powell, but nobody in his right mind would prefer him over Williams solo effort.

@Kasey Kockroach would.

[Tom 4,973]

46 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

No offense to John Powell, but nobody in his right mind would prefer him over Williams solo effort.

Solo effort or Solo effort?   

[The Great Gonzales 6,055]

1 hour ago, Andy said:

Here’s a fun thought experiment.

 

You are Mangold, sitting down with John to spot the film.  As the Director, what would you ask of him?

 

 

Get in Johnny baby, we're going to London!

[Alex 2,867]

2 hours ago, Andy said:

Here’s a fun thought experiment.

 

You are Mangold, sitting down with John to spot the film.  As the Director, what would you ask of him?

 

I would ask him to lean heavily on the March for thrills.  This is Indy’s send off.  Let that theme soar.  But I would ask that he not repeat or quote arrangements from other films (Flight from Peru for example. ) as those scenes are iconic and the music belongs to them. 
 

I would also ask for a percussion heavy ostinato in the classic Desert Chase or Slave Children style. 

 

 I asked ChatGPT and this is what it said.

 

 

[Tom 4,973]

ChatGPT missed Mangold's question about how to become pen pals with Daisy.  

[Docteur Qui 1,571]

On 11/04/2023 at 8:47 AM, Andy said:

Here’s a fun thought experiment.

 

You are Mangold, sitting down with John to spot the film.  As the Director, what would you ask of him?

 

I would ask him to lean heavily on the March for thrills.  This is Indy’s send off.  Let that theme soar.  But I would ask that he not repeat or quote arrangements from other films (Flight from Peru for example. ) as those scenes are iconic and the music belongs to them. 
 

I would also ask for a percussion heavy ostinato in the classic Desert Chase or Slave Children style. 

 

I would ask him to write the action scenes like a ballet. He can go to town scoring the action and individual moments with flourishes, but I want a through-line - a musical idea that the entire set-piece revolves around. Like Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra, The Asteroid Field etc. I've noticed it's something he does less and less nowadays but they're such joyous pieces. 

 

I would also spend time discussing new themes. Obvious ones like "who is this new character and how can we encapsulate them" but also more esoteric uses of themes and orchestration to create a unique but cohesive sound for the film. A great example is in The Lost World; synth choir is frequently used in a way that evokes an ethereal but unnatural beauty, a wonderful musical interpretation of the genetically-engineered dinosaurs. Another example is the recorder and other period instruments in Prisoner of Azkaban - it's truly a unique score that elevates the film in so many ways with its distinctiveness. 

[pete 949]

"Here's the film. You know what to do. How about a beer?"

[Edmilson 8,544]

I would just ask JW to write an Indiana Jones-style adventure score and then write and edit a movie around the music he did.

[Cerebral Cortex 3,358]

On 09/04/2023 at 10:06 PM, Alex said:

Although, after hearing what Bill Ross wrote for Obi-Wan (specifically the track “First Rescue”), I am convinced he may have written “Falcon Flight” from TROS.

 

I really sincerely think that is just us getting a very exasperated Williams trying his best to rewrite and rewrite to a changing edit while also making something Abrams is happy with and gives up and surrenders to the temp.

 

As it just so happens, I actually was listening to TROS again just last night. In the years since release, it's settled pretty firmly into being what I think is my favorite sequel trilogy score. But one objective point of attack to the TROS score I've seen online is how much Williams quotes from previous material in the score. While this personally never bothered me, as I find that to be part of the fun getting to hear Williams having to do takes on stuff from the Williams of years past, it is understandable why someone might listen to tracks like "Reunion" or your "Falcon Flight" and be disheartened to hear so many renditions of themes we've already heard taking up sizable score space.

 

Then it occurred to me that, wow, that was probably such an asset to Williams in doing these scores. Not to in any way diminish the accomplishment of Williams coming back to score the sequel trilogy, but to be able to do films where you can pull from a wealth of existing material organically probably helped so much in Williams being able physically to do these films. Him going pencil to paper and having to write hours of new music has to be quite physically taxing and hard on his hands. I've never met someone over the age of 30 who has loved the idea of continuing to do a job where they had to write stuff down for hours. Arthritis is a BITCH.

 

So Williams being able to plant themes in abundance probably helped quite a bit in being able to finish TROS. Not to in any way imply laziness on the part of Williams, but I also know that he ain't cranking out 120+ minute blockbuster scores left and right where he's having to drop 100% new material. It's either franchise films with established musical vernacular that he can draw from, or a short tight score like Fabelmans. Like I said, just a nice asset that I think Williams leaned into nicely in the Sequel Trilogy. I honestly think it's such a masterclass getting to listen to TROS and the other sequels and hear how Williams so seamlessly goes from seemingly such disparate themes so organically. I swear that man can transition between two themes like nobody else (Parade of the Ewoks to Luke and Leia's theme in the ROTJ end credits will never not astound me).

 

But then I thought, to bring it ALL full circle, oh shit... Williams doesn't have that luxury on Indy 5. With no Mutt or Marion taking up large portions of the film, in what is basically an Indy film score tradition, Williams has to basically come up with a Star Wars-size score at 90 and have it be almost entirely new music save for Indy's theme. Not only that, it's a fucking action movie. That means Williams is having to write a bunch of dense action music, and fuck me I wouldn't want to do that shit at 90. So since Williams doesn't have the asset of reusing old themes in abundance like he did on TROS going into writing Indy 5, if the thing that makes it possible for John Williams to write a fifth Indiana Jones score as well as likely his last major blockbuster score is for him to do new spins on old action material from previous Indy films, SIGN ME THE FUCK UP.

[Brónach 1,305]

5 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

I would ask him to write the action scenes like a ballet. He can go to town scoring the action and individual moments with flourishes, but I want a through-line - a musical idea that the entire set-piece revolves around. Like Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra, The Asteroid Field etc. I've noticed it's something he does less and less nowadays but they're such joyous pieces. 

 

I would also spend time discussing new themes. Obvious ones like "who is this new character and how can we encapsulate them" but also more esoteric uses of themes and orchestration to create a unique but cohesive sound for the film. A great example is in The Lost World; synth choir is frequently in a way that evokes an ethereal but unnatural beauty, a wonderful musical interpretation of the genetically-engineered dinosaurs. Another example is the recorder and other period instruments in Prisoner of Azkaban - it's truly a unique score that elevates the film in so many ways with its distinctiveness. 

 

these two things. i may consider downplaying the raiders march (this won't happen lol)

 

(but that's because if i were JW i would write a sweet old indy theme that contrasts with it, maybe noir sounding, what the vibe exactly i don't know, because i haven't seen the movie, so i'm having to invent the movie in my head first in order to come up with this answer)

 

8 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

Both of them in their prime? Williams. At the moment? I could make a case for either.

 

we'll get John Powell eventually unless Disney gets torn apart into pieces (and even then, maybe)

[eitam 368]

https://www.cinemablend.com/interviews/indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destinys-director-explains-the-complex-process-of-getting-john-williams-to-score-the-film

 

Quote

It's even more complex than that. I was thrilled beyond belief, but at first he was going to write some themes, you know, and then hire some people to help arrange it throughout the movie. And then he saw the movie. And then he started writing themes, and then he just didn't stop until he had written over two hours of music. In pencil!

 

So I'm confused, I thought Williams had been confirmed way before the movie shooting was completed ? 

 

 

EDIT sorry, didn't see it's already being discussed in General Discussion 

[Jay 38,866]

This reminds me of the Harry Potter 2 situation, where JW originally thought he only had time to write new themes and Ross would adapt them into scenes, and then Williams kept writing and writing actual cues until he absolutely had to stop to go score Catch Me If You Can

[Tom 4,973]

Remember back in the Feb 2022 interview he was saying this was his last score and such.  My guess is that he was tired and wasn't sure if he was up for the whole thing.  But, he proved himself wrong--which is great.  

[Drew 593]

On 09/04/2023 at 11:06 PM, Alex said:

Although, after hearing what Bill Ross wrote for Obi-Wan (specifically the track “First Rescue”), I am convinced he may have written “Falcon Flight” from TROS.

 

It's pretty obvious that Williams did not compose Falcon Flight or the Rey training cue. They both rip off verbatim quotes from Gordy Haab's Battlefront 2 score.

[Jay 38,866]

Proof?

[Alex 2,867]

6 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

 

I really sincerely think that is just us getting a very exasperated Williams trying his best to rewrite and rewrite to a changing edit while also making something Abrams is happy with and gives up and surrenders to the temp.

 

As it just so happens, I actually was listening to TROS again just last night. In the years since release, it's settled pretty firmly into being what I think is my favorite sequel trilogy score. But one objective point of attack to the TROS score I've seen online is how much Williams quotes from previous material in the score. While this personally never bothered me, as I find that to be part of the fun getting to hear Williams having to do takes on stuff from the Williams of years past, it is understandable why someone might listen to tracks like "Reunion" or your "Falcon Flight" and be disheartened to hear so many renditions of themes we've already heard taking up sizable score space.

 

I actually love Falcon Flight and it´s placement of themes. 

 

What I was referring is that certain cues that Bill Ross wrote for Obi-Wan (as well as The Tale of Despareaux) , are written in the similar style to it.

 

Specifically 1.18 onwards.
 

 

[Drew 593]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

Proof?

 

 

[Jay 38,866]

That clip of "Iden Versio's Theme" doesn't sound anything like Falcon Flight to me.  Are you sure you have the right timestamp?

[GerateWohl 4,938]

15 hours ago, Andy said:

I would also ask for a percussion heavy ostinato in the classic Desert Chase or Slave Children style. 

I would say, these two pieces, Desert Chase and Slave Children, have very different dynamics.

So, that instruction would confuse me as the composer.

[Drew 593]

59 minutes ago, Jay said:

That clip of "Iden Versio's Theme" doesn't sound anything like Falcon Flight to me.  Are you sure you have the right timestamp?

 

Yes, I'm sure. They sound very alike. Are you on desktop?

[Jay 38,866]

Yea

[crumbs 14,668]

Even if he deferred a few revisions to Ross and told him to match the temp, I wouldn't blame him. The temp was probably 95% JW anyway.

 

JJ seems oddly specific about musical accompaniment on a micro level, so after writing 200+ minutes of music (including abandoned early cues for both these scenes), JW probably chose the path of least resistance.

[Richard Penna 4,033]

15 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

Both of them in their prime? Williams. At the moment? I could make a case for either.

 

This.

 

Powell is in his prime, and Williams, while still delivering some fine scores, is not at the stage he was in the 80s/90s of delivering hit after hit.

[BB-8 3,840]

So why wasn't any used in the final trailer?

[Brónach 1,305]

it's a silly waste of his time but i like it when JW has scored some teasers

[TolkienSS 444]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

That clip of "Iden Versio's Theme" doesn't sound anything like Falcon Flight to me.  Are you sure you have the right timestamp?

 

It sounds almost identical to me, save for few orchestration choices.

[The Great Gonzales 6,055]

3 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I would say, these two pieces, Desert Chase and Slave Children, have very different dynamics.

So, that instruction would confuse me as the composer.

That as why he said or.

[GerateWohl 4,938]

1 hour ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

That as why he said or.

Yes, but still with that instruction as the composer I wouldn't know, what the director wants.

[Thor 8,121]

Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough.

[Brónach 1,305]

Once you pop, you can't stop.

[Tom 4,973]

4 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 

This.

 

Powell is in his prime, and Williams, while still delivering some fine scores, is not at the stage he was in the 80s/90s of delivering hit after hit.

Is Powell delivering hit after hit?   

[Edmilson 8,544]

What I love about Williams is that he seems to love working with music: writing, recording, conducting... So he won't stop until someone or something absolutely makes him to, like his commitment with CMIYC, which obligated him to stop writing cues for Chamber of Secrets.

 

5 minutes ago, Tom said:

Is Powell delivering hit after hit?   

I like to say that, since 2014 with HTTYD 2, we're living in an era of "peak Powell" where his scores reached an amazing level of quality and maturity. It's not that he wasn't great before (I love early Powell), but now he is in his absolute prime.

 

Unfortunately, that also means we're only getting one JP score per year 

[Jay 38,866]

Powell in the past decade

 

2014 - Rio 2 - not a hit

2014 - How To Train Your Dragon 2 - HIT!

2015 - Pan - HIT!

2016 - Jason Bourne - not a hit

2017 - Ferdinand - HIT!

2018 - Solo - HIT!

2019 - How To Train Your Dragon 3 - HIT!

2020 - Call of the Wild - HIT!

2021 - Locked Down - not a hit

2022 - Don't Worry Darling - not a hit

2023 - Still: A Michael J Fox Movie - probably won't be a hit

2023 - Q4 score - we still don't know what it is.  Could be a hit, could not be.

[Brónach 1,305]

perhaps someday it'll be again a movie that i want to watch or that I like

[Jay 38,866]

I've only seen 4 movies on that list.

 

Jason Bourne - meh

Solo - I liked it!

Locked Down - it was bad

Don't Worry Darling - it was really bad

[Tom 4,973]

These are very good, but I would say that all of Williams scores in this time are just as great (well, I would say better). Williams just scores fewer movies.  Is that all we mean by "past his prime," or are you saying that Powell's current scores are better than Williams's current scores?  

 

 

[artguy360 1,889]

Interesting that Indy 5 was almost a HP2 situation.

[karelm 2,975]

Maybe it's the nostalgia kicking in but damn, this movie looks like a hell of a lot of fun.  

[TolkienSS 444]

Since I prefer Chamber Of Secrets vastly over Philosophers Stone, wouldn't have been a bad deal.

[Docteur Qui 1,571]

While on the topic of temp tracks but bringing it back to Indy, I hope the film wasn't just temped with only previous Indy scores (or worse, a generic "Williams-style" approach lifting from any of his scores). This terrific post by @Manakin Skywalkerperfectly sums up my issue with that approach for the sequel films:

 

 

Williams is always at his best when he's being challenged, and the best music he's ever written is when he's inspired by better composers than him. Giving him an edit scored with his own music and being told to just do what he would normally do, to me, is a waste of the man's talents. If I was Mangold and absolutely had to use a temp track... I'd look to who inspired Williams back in 1981 for Raiders: Maurice Jarre, Korngold etc. But looking at temp track options I'd also want to look outside of the box as much as possible and remind myself of some of JW's most inspired moments; like scoring a magical three-storey bus ride with an unhinged swing big band piece, or a ballet lightsaber battle with an epic vocal cantata.

[JohnTheBaptist 63]

On 10/04/2023 at 6:47 PM, Andy said:

Here’s a fun thought experiment.

 

You are Mangold, sitting down with John to spot the film.  As the Director, what would you ask of him?

 

I would ask him to lean heavily on the March for thrills.  This is Indy’s send off.  Let that theme soar.  But I would ask that he not repeat or quote arrangements from other films (Flight from Peru for example. ) as those scenes are iconic and the music belongs to them. 
 

I would also ask for a percussion heavy ostinato in the classic Desert Chase or Slave Children style. 

Every movie since the first one has been his send-off