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Williams "didn't stop until he had written over two hours of music" for Indiana Jones 5


Alex

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https://www.cinemablend.com/interviews/indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destinys-director-explains-the-complex-process-of-getting-john-williams-to-score-the-film
 

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Mangold talked about the process of securing Williams, and said:

 “It's even more complex than that. I was thrilled beyond belief, but at first he was going to write some themes, you know, and then hire some people to help arrange it throughout the movie. And then he saw the movie. And then he started writing themes, and then he just didn't stop until he had written over two hours of music. In pencil!”

 

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13 hours ago, Alex said:

 “It's even more complex than that. I was thrilled beyond belief, but at first he was going to write some themes, you know, and then hire some people to help arrange it throughout the movie. And then he saw the movie. And then he started writing themes, and then he just didn't stop until he had written over two hours of music. In pencil!”

 

Makes me wonder if that Moroccan chase might be a Bill Ross composition? Could explain all the obscure references to past scores, especially if loosely based on a temp track.

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13 hours ago, Alex said:
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 “It's even more complex than that. I was thrilled beyond belief, but at first he was going to write some themes, you know, and then hire some people to help arrange it throughout the movie. And then he saw the movie. And then he started writing themes, and then he just didn't stop until he had written over two hours of music. In pencil!”

 

So we almost got a John Powell Indy score? :(

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30 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Makes me wonder if that Moroccan chase might be a Bill Ross composition? Could explain all the obscure references to past scores, especially if loosely based on a temp track.


I don’t know. The original music which makes up 90% of that scene is definitely JW. It is just too much in his style. From the flute flourishes to the xylophone beats.

 

Although, after hearing what Bill Ross wrote for Obi-Wan (specifically the track “First Rescue”), I am convinced he may have written “Falcon Flight” from TROS.

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Here’s a fun thought experiment.

 

You are Mangold, sitting down with John to spot the film.  As the Director, what would you ask of him?

 

I would ask him to lean heavily on the March for thrills.  This is Indy’s send off.  Let that theme soar.  But I would ask that he not repeat or quote arrangements from other films (Flight from Peru for example. ) as those scenes are iconic and the music belongs to them. 
 

I would also ask for a percussion heavy ostinato in the classic Desert Chase or Slave Children style. 

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Just now, Andy said:

But I would ask that he not repeat or quote arrangements from other films (Flight from Peru for example. ) as those scenes are iconic and the music belongs to them.

I mostly agree with this. Once I saw pics of the Nazi train, I got excited because that could potentially mean a reprise of some music from the train sequence from TLC. If I was James I don’t even know what I would ask:lol:

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20 hours ago, Edmilson said:

So we almost got a John Powell Indy score? :(

 

No offense to John Powell, but nobody in his right mind would prefer him over Williams solo effort.

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7 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

No offense to John Powell, but nobody in his right mind would prefer him over Williams solo effort.

 

Both of them in their prime? Williams. At the moment? I could make a case for either.

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1 hour ago, Andy said:

Here’s a fun thought experiment.

 

You are Mangold, sitting down with John to spot the film.  As the Director, what would you ask of him?

 

 

Get in Johnny baby, we're going to London!

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5 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

I would ask him to write the action scenes like a ballet. He can go to town scoring the action and individual moments with flourishes, but I want a through-line - a musical idea that the entire set-piece revolves around. Like Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra, The Asteroid Field etc. I've noticed it's something he does less and less nowadays but they're such joyous pieces. 

 

I would also spend time discussing new themes. Obvious ones like "who is this new character and how can we encapsulate them" but also more esoteric uses of themes and orchestration to create a unique but cohesive sound for the film. A great example is in The Lost World; synth choir is frequently in a way that evokes an ethereal but unnatural beauty, a wonderful musical interpretation of the genetically-engineered dinosaurs. Another example is the recorder and other period instruments in Prisoner of Azkaban - it's truly a unique score that elevates the film in so many ways with its distinctiveness. 

 

these two things. i may consider downplaying the raiders march (this won't happen lol)

 

(but that's because if i were JW i would write a sweet old indy theme that contrasts with it, maybe noir sounding, what the vibe exactly i don't know, because i haven't seen the movie, so i'm having to invent the movie in my head first in order to come up with this answer)

 

8 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

Both of them in their prime? Williams. At the moment? I could make a case for either.

 

we'll get John Powell eventually unless Disney gets torn apart into pieces (and even then, maybe)

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https://www.cinemablend.com/interviews/indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destinys-director-explains-the-complex-process-of-getting-john-williams-to-score-the-film

 

Quote

It's even more complex than that. I was thrilled beyond belief, but at first he was going to write some themes, you know, and then hire some people to help arrange it throughout the movie. And then he saw the movie. And then he started writing themes, and then he just didn't stop until he had written over two hours of music. In pencil!

 

So I'm confused, I thought Williams had been confirmed way before the movie shooting was completed ? 

 

 

EDIT sorry, didn't see it's already being discussed in General Discussion 

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Remember back in the Feb 2022 interview he was saying this was his last score and such.  My guess is that he was tired and wasn't sure if he was up for the whole thing.  But, he proved himself wrong--which is great.  

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On 09/04/2023 at 11:06 PM, Alex said:

Although, after hearing what Bill Ross wrote for Obi-Wan (specifically the track “First Rescue”), I am convinced he may have written “Falcon Flight” from TROS.

 

It's pretty obvious that Williams did not compose Falcon Flight or the Rey training cue. They both rip off verbatim quotes from Gordy Haab's Battlefront 2 score.

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6 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

 

I really sincerely think that is just us getting a very exasperated Williams trying his best to rewrite and rewrite to a changing edit while also making something Abrams is happy with and gives up and surrenders to the temp.

 

As it just so happens, I actually was listening to TROS again just last night. In the years since release, it's settled pretty firmly into being what I think is my favorite sequel trilogy score. But one objective point of attack to the TROS score I've seen online is how much Williams quotes from previous material in the score. While this personally never bothered me, as I find that to be part of the fun getting to hear Williams having to do takes on stuff from the Williams of years past, it is understandable why someone might listen to tracks like "Reunion" or your "Falcon Flight" and be disheartened to hear so many renditions of themes we've already heard taking up sizable score space.

 

I actually love Falcon Flight and it´s placement of themes. 

 

What I was referring is that certain cues that Bill Ross wrote for Obi-Wan (as well as The Tale of Despareaux) , are written in the similar style to it.

 

Specifically 1.18 onwards.
 

 

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That clip of "Iden Versio's Theme" doesn't sound anything like Falcon Flight to me.  Are you sure you have the right timestamp?

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15 hours ago, Andy said:

I would also ask for a percussion heavy ostinato in the classic Desert Chase or Slave Children style. 

I would say, these two pieces, Desert Chase and Slave Children, have very different dynamics.

So, that instruction would confuse me as the composer.

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59 minutes ago, Jay said:

That clip of "Iden Versio's Theme" doesn't sound anything like Falcon Flight to me.  Are you sure you have the right timestamp?

 

Yes, I'm sure. They sound very alike. Are you on desktop?

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Even if he deferred a few revisions to Ross and told him to match the temp, I wouldn't blame him. The temp was probably 95% JW anyway.

 

JJ seems oddly specific about musical accompaniment on a micro level, so after writing 200+ minutes of music (including abandoned early cues for both these scenes), JW probably chose the path of least resistance.

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15 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

Both of them in their prime? Williams. At the moment? I could make a case for either.

 

This.

 

Powell is in his prime, and Williams, while still delivering some fine scores, is not at the stage he was in the 80s/90s of delivering hit after hit.

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2 hours ago, Jay said:

That clip of "Iden Versio's Theme" doesn't sound anything like Falcon Flight to me.  Are you sure you have the right timestamp?

 

It sounds almost identical to me, save for few orchestration choices.

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3 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I would say, these two pieces, Desert Chase and Slave Children, have very different dynamics.

So, that instruction would confuse me as the composer.

That as why he said or.

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4 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 

This.

 

Powell is in his prime, and Williams, while still delivering some fine scores, is not at the stage he was in the 80s/90s of delivering hit after hit.

Is Powell delivering hit after hit?   

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What I love about Williams is that he seems to love working with music: writing, recording, conducting... So he won't stop until someone or something absolutely makes him to, like his commitment with CMIYC, which obligated him to stop writing cues for Chamber of Secrets.

 

5 minutes ago, Tom said:

Is Powell delivering hit after hit?   

I like to say that, since 2014 with HTTYD 2, we're living in an era of "peak Powell" where his scores reached an amazing level of quality and maturity. It's not that he wasn't great before (I love early Powell), but now he is in his absolute prime.

 

Unfortunately, that also means we're only getting one JP score per year :(

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Powell in the past decade

 

2014 - Rio 2 - not a hit

2014 - How To Train Your Dragon 2 - HIT!

2015 - Pan - HIT!

2016 - Jason Bourne - not a hit

2017 - Ferdinand - HIT!

2018 - Solo - HIT!

2019 - How To Train Your Dragon 3 - HIT!

2020 - Call of the Wild - HIT!

2021 - Locked Down - not a hit

2022 - Don't Worry Darling - not a hit

2023 - Still: A Michael J Fox Movie - probably won't be a hit

2023 - Q4 score - we still don't know what it is.  Could be a hit, could not be.

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These are very good, but I would say that all of Williams scores in this time are just as great (well, I would say better). Williams just scores fewer movies.  Is that all we mean by "past his prime," or are you saying that Powell's current scores are better than Williams's current scores?  

 

 

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While on the topic of temp tracks but bringing it back to Indy, I hope the film wasn't just temped with only previous Indy scores (or worse, a generic "Williams-style" approach lifting from any of his scores). This terrific post by @Manakin Skywalkerperfectly sums up my issue with that approach for the sequel films:

 

 

Williams is always at his best when he's being challenged, and the best music he's ever written is when he's inspired by better composers than him. Giving him an edit scored with his own music and being told to just do what he would normally do, to me, is a waste of the man's talents. If I was Mangold and absolutely had to use a temp track... I'd look to who inspired Williams back in 1981 for Raiders: Maurice Jarre, Korngold etc. But looking at temp track options I'd also want to look outside of the box as much as possible and remind myself of some of JW's most inspired moments; like scoring a magical three-storey bus ride with an unhinged swing big band piece, or a ballet lightsaber battle with an epic vocal cantata.

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On 10/04/2023 at 6:47 PM, Andy said:

Here’s a fun thought experiment.

 

You are Mangold, sitting down with John to spot the film.  As the Director, what would you ask of him?

 

I would ask him to lean heavily on the March for thrills.  This is Indy’s send off.  Let that theme soar.  But I would ask that he not repeat or quote arrangements from other films (Flight from Peru for example. ) as those scenes are iconic and the music belongs to them. 
 

I would also ask for a percussion heavy ostinato in the classic Desert Chase or Slave Children style. 

Every movie since the first one has been his send-off

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