Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (Disney Records Original Soundtrack Album) - NO FILM SPOILERS!

[leeallen01 2,130]

Just got done with my first listen through.

 

(Haven't seen the film. Not really interested because it doesn't look good, and I already know by the state of modern cinema, that it's going to be an overly-long, CGI-filled mess that's all about Phoebe Waller-Bridge, whilst Indy is told he's an old, washed-up relic that has just given up on life and has got divorced from Marion and is a dead-beat dad.) If anything I said was spoilers, then that's kinda sad how predictable they treat him, considering I have no idea what happens in the film.

 

But anyway, onto the score haha.

 

I enjoyed my listen through. But I noticed that it's dominated by Helena's theme (which already tells me a lot about the film). Her theme has some nice variation, but the opening phrase of her theme is used too much.

 

Indy feels basically none-existent in this score, except for a couple of moments. 

 

If you told me this was a score to an Indy spinoff where he isn't in the film, but is mentioned casually a couple of times, then I'd believe you.

 

I don't recall a single time in the score where Indy's themes are given huge, grand, heroic moments that last for a nice while. He just gets a couple melancholic moments (which are lovely, like in the piece 'To Morocco').

 

But overall, it's nice to hear Johnny do another action/adventure score, however it never feels like an Indy score for me. It's more like a spinoff film score for Helena.

[Damien F 1,645]

Indy's theme is a little more present in the score than the album suggests. I can think of at least three renditions of the Indy theme that is present in the film after the 1944 prologue that have been omitted from the album. There might be more. This is inexcusable because there is 13 minutes of empty space.

[Trope 254]

I found this comment under a YouTube video which mentioned JW's score for Dial as being relatively simplistic and forgettable. Is there any evidence to support this claim that JW no longer orchestrates his own scores and relies on other composers to realise his piano sketches?

[TolkienSS 382]

21 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

😃

 

James Mangold: Johnny! Helena's theme is great. How about we do ONE theme for the bad guys and ONE theme for the mcguffin - like in the other films? 

 

John Williams: Yes! Yes! Yes! (laughs manically)

 

"You really need a worse composer than I am on this film Jim!"

 

"I know, but you're still alive!"

[Jilal 554]

15 minutes ago, Trope said:

I found this comment under a YouTube video which mentioned JW's score for Dial as being relatively simplistic and forgettable. Is there any evidence to support this claim that JW no longer orchestrates his own scores and relies on other composers to realise his piano sketches?

 

No.

[TolkienSS 382]

17 minutes ago, Trope said:

I found this comment under a YouTube video which mentioned JW's score for Dial as being relatively simplistic and forgettable. Is there any evidence to support this claim that JW no longer orchestrates his own scores and relies on other composers to realise his piano sketches?

 

Well, define "orchestrate".

I do believe that William Ross did the lion share of orchestration from Williams' usual sketches. 

And I don't think it would be that far fetched in Hollywood if Ross handed some orchestrations to other people.

 

Though that comment makes it sound like Williams pulled a Remote Control.

[Damien F 1,645]

17 minutes ago, Trope said:

I found this comment under a YouTube video which mentioned JW's score for Dial as being relatively simplistic and forgettable. Is there any evidence to support this claim that JW no longer orchestrates his own scores and relies on other composers to realise his piano sketches?

 

This came up on Facebook a few years ago and Conrad Pope, who works with JW, stated that JW orchestrates his own music. His response has been posted here: https://gearspace.com/board/music-for-picture/1144975-john-williams-orchestration.html

 

I think he has mentioned in interviews that his job is to copy JW's condensed score sketch to a full score format. He doesn't just receive a basic piano score from JW.

1 minute ago, TolkienSS said:

 

Well, define "orchestrate".

I do believe that William Ross did the lion share of orchestration from Williams' usual sketches. 

And I don't think it would be that far fetched in Hollywood if Ross handed some orchestrations to other people.

 

Though that comment makes it sound like Williams pulled a Remote Control.

 

I think the key here is what are Wiliams' usual sketches. They are not just basic piano score as the Youtube comment suggests.

[Chen G. 3,522]

25 minutes ago, Trope said:

Is there any evidence to support this claim that JW no longer orchestrates his own scores and relies on other composers to realise his piano sketches?

 

This is an accusation that I've sometimes seen levelled at Williams and which clearly feigns ignorance towards the job of an orchestrator. Williams had been using orchestrators for most of his career, but as just that: orchestrators that fill-out his detailed, six-stave sketches, but don't change the substance of the composition.

 

There are a few outliers where somebody like Williams Ross was allowed to "adapt" a sizable (just how sizable is debatable) amount of music, like Chamber of Secrets. For a while, it seems Dial of Destiny was going down the same route, but Mangold assures us that ended up not being the case.

[BB-8 2,958]

43 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Just got done with my first listen through.

 

(Haven't seen the film. Not really interested because it doesn't look good, and I already know by the state of modern cinema, that it's going to be an overly-long, CGI-filled mess that's all about Phoebe Waller-Bridge, whilst Indy is told he's an old, washed-up relic that has just given up on life and has got divorced from Marion and is a dead-beat dad.) If anything I said was spoilers, then that's kinda sad how predictable they treat him, considering I have no idea what happens in the film.

 

But anyway, onto the score haha.

 

I enjoyed my listen through. But I noticed that it's dominated by Helena's theme (which already tells me a lot about the film). Her theme has some nice variation, but the opening phrase of her theme is used too much.

 

Indy feels basically none-existent in this score, except for a couple of moments. 

 

If you told me this was a score to an Indy spinoff where he isn't in the film, but is mentioned casually a couple of times, then I'd believe you.

 

I don't recall a single time in the score where Indy's themes are given huge, grand, heroic moments that last for a nice while. He just gets a couple melancholic moments (which are lovely, like in the piece 'To Morocco').

 

But overall, it's nice to hear Johnny do another action/adventure score, however it never feels like an Indy score for me. It's more like a spinoff film score for Helena.

You've spoilered without having seen the film.

[Jilal 554]

8 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

six-stave sketches

 

Mostly eight-stave in the past, in fact, and mostly sixteen-stave as of late (TFA, for instance).

 

Extrapolating this trend, I'd wager the DOD cues written by Williams himself also began their lives as sixteen-stave sketches.

 

@Trope Could you share a link to the YouTube video?

[BB-8 2,958]

Re the bad-guy themes: JW comes close to Wagner.

[Tom 4,176]

57 minutes ago, Trope said:

I found this comment under a YouTube video which mentioned JW's score for Dial as being relatively simplistic and forgettable. Is there any evidence to support this claim that JW no longer orchestrates his own scores and relies on other composers to realise his piano sketches?

So, its that time of the year.  

[Trope 254]

33 minutes ago, Jilal said:

@Trope Could you share a link to the YouTube video?

BE AWARE LINKED VIDEO CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR THE FILM!!!

 

From 27:53, they briefly discuss JW and the music. They mention one or two scenes and the associated score.

 

I honestly don't have a problem with people saying that the Dial score is less memorable than previous Indy film scores, BUT I DO have a problem with commenters spreading false information concerning JW's writing methods and making it appear that he no longer is in full control of the music being written.

[crumbs 13,883]

2 hours ago, Quppa said:

https://audioboom.com/posts/8327053-episode-376-james-mangold-on-the-music-of-indiana-jones-the-dial-of-destiny

 

New episode of Soundtracking with Edith Bowman: 'James Mangold On The Music Of Indiana Jones & The Dial Of Destiny'.

 

Absolutely incredible interview! Mangold not just geeking out about working with Williams but providing genuine insight into their process and how involved Williams was. First time I've heard about him watching dailies while production was ongoing and formulating the score during production.

 

Also fascinating is Mangold voicing his frustration at JW's initial soundtracks being so incomplete (and often filled with non-film cue suites), name-dropping LLL for coming to the rescue, while lamenting it takes 20+ years for JW scores to receive expansions. Mangold's one of us!

 

He has enough clout to speak to LFL/WDR/JW about changing this situation (at least for the Indy scores) so let's hope conversations are happening in the background. But it might be a good time for everyone to dust off their Twitter accounts and tell him how badly we want these expanded...

 

Mangold's exact comments for anyone who can't listen:

"It's forever to my chagrin that they release these albums, you know the initial release, that are like 10 or 11 tracks of John's music... but there's always these suite versions of the music. And then later, 20 years later, they'll release the full La La Land Records 96 cue versions... you know, those are the things you gotta have because they have all this incidental stuff he does that's just... brilliant."

[Damien F 1,645]

14 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Absolutely incredible interview! Mangold not just geeking out about working with Williams but providing genuine insight into their process and how involved Williams was. First time I've heard about him watching dailies while production was ongoing and formulating the score during production.

 

Also fascinating is Mangold voicing his frustration at JW's initial soundtracks being so incomplete (and often filled with non-film cue suites), name-dropping LLL for coming to the rescue, while lamenting it takes 20+ years for JW scores to receive expansions. Mangold's one of us!

 

He has enough clout to speak to LFL/WDR/JW about changing this situation (at least for the Indy scores) so let's hope conversations are happening in the background. But it might be a good time for everyone to dust off their Twitter accounts and tell him how badly we want these expanded...

 

Mangold's exact comments for anyone who can't listen:

"It's forever to my chagrin that they release these albums, you know the initial release, that are like 10 or 11 tracks of John's music... but there's always these suite versions of the music. And then later, 20 years later, they'll release the full La La Land Records 96 cue versions... you know, those are the things you gotta have because they have all this incidental stuff he does that's just... brilliant."

 

That makes me suspect the home media release will have an isolated score unless Mangold gets overruled.

[Luke Skywalker 1,676]

Lets hope

[Damien F 1,645]

48 minutes ago, Trope said:

I honestly don't have a problem with people saying that the Dial score is less memorable than previous Indy film scores, BUT I DO have a problem with commenters spreading false information concerning JW's writing methods and making it appear that he no longer is in full control of the music being written.

 

We are in an era of fake news so I guess the film score industry isn't immune to this.

 

What that comment suggests is actually what I suspect Hans Zimmer's involvement was for the score to No Time To Die whereby he wrote some themes and provided the general artistic direction for the score, but other composers especially Steve Mazzaro did the bulk of the actual scoring. But to be fair to Zimmer, there were many times during the press tours for No Time To Die that Zimmer name checked Mazzaro as being heavily involved.

[Alex 2,734]

The only thing about the soundtrack that genuinely irritates me is the awkward edit in Germany, 1944. It just seems so unnecessary.

[Not Mr. Big 4,533]

4 hours ago, Trope said:

I found this comment under a YouTube video which mentioned JW's score for Dial as being relatively simplistic and forgettable. Is there any evidence to support this claim that JW no longer orchestrates his own scores and relies on other composers to realise his piano sketches?

RLM commenters are worse than reddit

[Courtney Sees Ghosts 246]

4 hours ago, Trope said:

I found this comment under a YouTube video which mentioned JW's score for Dial as being relatively simplistic and forgettable. Is there any evidence to support this claim that JW no longer orchestrates his own scores and relies on other composers to realise his piano sketches?

All these lies and work arounds instead of just accepting that Williams can't recapture all the magic from his peak eras in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. 

If someone else was doing all the work for him, why bother doing the work? Could've just written themes and handed the score to William Ross or John Powell. Hell, isn't that what Mangold thought was gonna happen? Like, where's the logic?

[MikeH 768]

4 hours ago, Jilal said:

 

Mostly eight-stave in the past, in fact, and mostly sixteen-stave as of late (TFA, for instance).

 

Extrapolating this trend, I'd wager the DOD cues written by Williams himself also began their lives as sixteen-stave sketches.

I’m sure it’s due to the huge amount of time he’s been given to score these latest films but yes it seems his sketches are now basically full scores which are sent directly to the copyists.  
 

I think he started this trend of doing mostly 16 staves instead of 8 around Book Thief in 2013? Or War Horse? There are some subtle differences across the decades depending on who’s orchestrating (Herb Spencer, Pope, JW himself), things most people wouldn’t notice like how woodwind runs are doubled/dovetailed etc. 

[Edmilson 6,170]

20 minutes ago, Courtney said:

All these lies and work arounds instead of just accepting that Williams can't recapture all the magic from his peak eras in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. 

Don't forget the 2000s! Scores like A.I., the three Potters, etc., contains as much Williams magic as his other classics.

[Courtney Sees Ghosts 246]

4 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Don't forget the 2000s! Scores like A.I., the three Potters, etc., contains as much Williams magic as his other classics.

You're so right. I'll gladly pit Revenge of the Sith, Prisoner of Azkaban and Catch Me If You Can to his early work.

[Holko 8,947]

Okay, I'm gonna stop with the daily relistens now.

 

But whew, it's just so good!

 

I'm surprised at myself but the assembly is just so good that for now I don't care about what's missing, I don't care how long it is. It may not have as standalone towering masterpieces as some of the previous ones, but what it does have is a feel, a mood, a flow that grabs me and never lets my attention go, never yanks me out with a weird pairing or a terribly out of place feeling cue. Many of the edited down cues are assembled well, almost seamlessly, not unlike TFA where setpieces are cut down and tracks cover multiple cues over 15 minutes, but it still condenses successfully and gets the idea of that part of the narrative across. Might be among my favourite JW OSTs for now, from the ones I bothered listening to.

[Bellosh 3,009]

what i love about this OST compared to KOTCS (which I admittedly listened to over and over again in 2008)....is that this score has cues that I look forward to at the end.  The Airport ------> New York, 1969 is filled with everything I need to have a feeling of closure in the score.

 

The Departure in KOTCS was good but the preceding tracks didn't have enough emotional weight to them, unlike DoD's.

[Holko 8,947]

1 minute ago, Bellosh said:

The Airport ------> New York, 1969 is filled with everything I need to have a feeling of closure in the score.

 

The Departure in KOTCS was good but the preceding tracks didn't have enough weight to them, unlike DoD's.

Oxley's Dilemma - Ants! - Temple Ruins and the Secret Revealed - The Departure!!! For the record I love KOCS's OST too.

[Bellosh 3,009]

i don't care for Ants! one bit tbh besides that lovely statement of Irina's theme

 

Temple Ruins is great though.

[Chen G. 3,522]

5 hours ago, BB-8 said:

Re the bad-guy themes: JW comes close to Wagner.

 

What does that mean?

[Holko 8,947]

Run, BB! RUN WHILE YOU CAN!

[Not Mr. Big 4,533]

26 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

What does that mean?

Actually the same thing occured to me too.  It has a Wagnerian feel to it (appropriately German)

[Chen G. 3,522]

31 minutes ago, Holko said:

Run, BB! RUN WHILE YOU CAN!

 

Too late! Alberich's curse will get him!! 

 

then hold it fast,
ward it with heed!
My curse you cannot flee!
 

[Brando 1,635]

1 hour ago, Bellosh said:

i don't care for Ants! one bit

What?!?!?!?! The percussion build up as Indy gains the upperhand over Dovchenko is so so so good.

[Holko 8,947]

7 minutes ago, Brando said:

What?!?!?!?! The percussion build up as Indy gains the upperhand over Dovchenko is so so so good.

And the way he moves that addicting ostinato from instrument group to instrument group with different intensities!

[iamleyeti 113]

After listening to the same 3-4 tracks for a couple of days, I've been listening the whole thing entirely. I think it's too bad we couldn't have proper suites for his main themes apart from Helena (2 full tracks dedicated to this theme… I love it but… come on). I really like how it goes from "classic Indy music" to "epic Helena theme" with comedy and horror in the middle.

 

I'm also very fond of "To Morocco" now, the last minute being quite moving for some reason. The visible temp tracking / inspirations bother me less also, probably because I can see past the similarities to focus on the differences.

 

Is it a lesser score than Kingdom or Temple or Crusade? Sure, why not. But considering the last few years, I'm just glad we could get another Williams score, especially one inspired by my personal favorite era of the composer.

[Bellosh 3,009]

Big Damn Ants! Fans in here, eh?

[Cerebral Cortex 3,338]

So if Dial of Destiny pulls music from every Williams/Spielberg action movie collaboration of the last 20 years (Minority Report, WOTW, KOTCS, Tintin), does that mean that there is a universe out there where Williams scored and then tracked in music from Ready Player One into an Indiana Jones movie?

[iamleyeti 113]

(just re-listen to Kingdom of the Crystall Skull… and what a score, oh my!)

[Damien F 1,645]

13 minutes ago, iamleyeti said:

(just re-listen to Kingdom of the Crystall Skull… and what a score, oh my!)

 

The whole score is great but the complete 9 minute jungle chase is extraordinary. The scene itself in the film is mostly rubbish but it certainly gave JW an opportunity to write incredible action music.

 

The tuk tuk chase is truncated on the DOD album but even so the film doesn't really have an extended 10 minute action scene like the Spielberg films do.

[iamleyeti 113]

The thing I was thinking is that movies rarely do long action sequences anymore… The good ones (or at least, the fun ones) I've seen recently are usually quite short. Or it's a lot of short action sequences happening at the same time à la Star Wars (without the tension or the editing).

7 minutes ago, Damien F said:

The scene itself in the film is mostly rubbish but it certainly gave JW an opportunity to write incredible action music.

That scene is... a blur... just a giant blurry green screen... what a waste of talent and money.

 

The only thing I like in the movie, besides the incredible score (Mutt's theme is sooooo good) is the ending. I know I'm in the minority here, but it was spectacular and really surprising they went that way, managing to finish where they started.

[Damien F 1,645]

2 minutes ago, iamleyeti said:

The thing I was thinking is that movies rarely do long action sequences anymore… The good ones (or at least, the fun ones) I've seen recently are usually quite short. Or it's a lot of short action sequences happening at the same time à la Star Wars (without the tension or the editing).

That scene is... a blur... just a giant blurry green screen... what a waste of talent and money.

 

The only thing I like in the movie, besides the incredible score (Mutt's theme is sooooo good) is the ending. I know I'm in the minority here, but it was spectacular and really surprising they went that way, managing to finish where they started.

 

I like the idea that the treasure is knowledge instead of some physical object. But I think they needed to keep it a little more subtle instead of having an alien literally stare at the camera in a tight close up. Who thought that shot was a good idea!? I think it was Lucas' bad influence on Spielberg.

 

[Jurassic Shark 11,102]

Can't remember we actually saw the alien.

[Bellosh 3,009]

33 minutes ago, Damien F said:

 

I like the idea that the treasure is knowledge instead of some physical object. But I think they needed to keep it a little more subtle instead of having an alien literally stare at the camera in a tight close up. Who thought that shot was a good idea!? I think it was Lucas' bad influence on Spielberg.

 

 

Agreed.  A saucer would have been enough for our imaginations

[Demodex 550]

If anyone posts a break down of the themes as they appear on the OST let me know please. I don't know recognize any of them yet. 

[Damien F 1,645]

19 minutes ago, Demodex said:

If anyone posts a break down of the themes as they appear on the OST let me know please. I don't know recognize any of them yet. 

 

This was posted in the previous page:

 

 

[Demodex 550]

Thanks!

[Bellosh 3,009]

The raiders march at the end of 'To Athens' (I promise guys I'll stop talking about this cue....maybe...but not today) genuinely feels like Indy's last hurrah.  I feel like JW was very intentional with this.

[TheUlyssesian 2,447]

3 hours ago, Damien F said:

 

The whole score is great but the complete 9 minute jungle chase is extraordinary. The scene itself in the film is mostly rubbish but it certainly gave JW an opportunity to write incredible action music.

 

i think it's a GREAT scene and better than anything in DoD.

[Edmilson 6,170]

I hate that jungle chase scene and utterly despise the Mutt as Tarzan moment, but at least JW's score is really good. He brought life and excitment to a scene that didn't have any of these things.

 

The Pursuit of the Falcon from Tintin is 10 times better than the KOTCS jungle chase.

[TheUlyssesian 2,447]

3 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I hate that jungle chase scene and utterly despise the Mutt as Tarzan moment, but at least JW's score is really good. He brought life and excitment to a scene that didn't have any of these things.

 

The Pursuit of the Falcon from Tintin is 10 times better than the KOTCS jungle chase.

 

Jungle Chase walked so that Falcon Pursuit could run - for both Spielberg and Williams.

 

 Both are very complex elaborate sequences with multiple things happening simultaneously with the heros splitting up and combining in various configurations and a breakneck chase as the macguffin switches  hands multiple times within the same scene. 

 

it is a breathtaking dazzling marvel of choreography, direction and editing. And scoring. 

 

nothing in DoD compares - directorially or musically.

 

KOTCS is a better film than DOD in every imaginable way.

[Presto 4,710]

Tintin is KOTCS without the badass themes.

 

 

Tintin sux.