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Star Wars no longer using Star Wars music


Tallguy

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Prompted by this:

 

 

12 hours ago, JTW said:

At this point I’m beginning to think that Bob Iger and Kathleen Kennedy “hate” John Williams. I simply can’t find any other explanation why they aren’t letting Mike and LLL (or even WDR) release the original Star Wars Trilogy scores. They didn’t last year when Star Wars had its 45th Anniversary and it doesn’t look like they are this year on Return of the Jedi’s 40th Anniversary. 
It’s like they just don’t care at all. It’s both sad and very disrespectful towards Maestro Williams. And the fans of these legendary scores.

 

OK! WTF? I'm sure it's not that they "hate" John Williams. But this is getting silly.

 

 

 

What is that music playing? Is it "How close can we get to Williams without having to pay him"?!?

 

This is one of those deals where I don't know the specifics, but SOMETHING is going on.

 

There was also this:

 

When Disney did their vehicle walk-throughs and scenery fly-bys there isn't a drop of Star Wars music in there.

 

It reminds me of back when they had the story records for Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. There was a fair amount of music from the movies that weren't from the soundtracks as released at the time. Same with Raiders. Then the Return of the Jedi story record comes out and it's ONLY music from the LP. Oy! You've never heard The Story Continues so many times in your life!

 

I never knew what had changed but my guess has always been who got paid and for what. The LP was already paid for or something. That became how story records were made for the rest of the 80's.

 

Again, here something has changed. Williams? Disney? Did the money change or did someone just decide that was overhead they didn't need anymore? After hearing actual Star Wars music, never mind the themes, for every video game and promo for the last 40+ years this is glaring. This isn't a film maker saying "I'll make Star Wars but I don't want to be tied to Williams". This is "Unless you're watching a John Williams scored film you don't hear this music any more." The last time I heard "royalty free Star Wars" like this was the Kenner toy ads from 1978!

 

Does anyone know anything specific?

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The second clip, I guess they just really wanted to get that EPIC trailer sound so I understand why they didn't go for any John Williams music, but huh...I would have thought Leia's Theme would have been a given for the first clip. 

 

sorry I don't know anything specific. 

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From what I picked up on some Obi-Wan Kenobi interviews (they had to get permission by John to use his themes - and they only were allowed to use them in the last episode) maybe also John Williams himself doesn't want Lucasfilm to commercialise the f*ck out of his music (anymore). But I don't know if he even would have the right to decide that or not.

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It's simple: Disney needs to cut costs. So it will fire a lot of people, make less content and yeah, try to spend less in everything they do. So yeah, they need to find a way to keep the Star Wars fan base engaged without going over the (tiny) budget - which includes not paying Williams to use his music.

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Just now, Edmilson said:

It's simple: Disney needs to cut costs. So it will fire a lot of people, make less content and yeah, try to spend less in everything they do. So yeah, they need to find a way to keep the Star Wars fan base engaged without going over the (tiny) budget - which includes not paying Williams to use his music.

Are there any signs Disney is having financial problems?

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33 minutes ago, Michael Grigorowitsch said:

Are there any signs Disney is having financial problems?

This is the most recent source I could find in English language of Disney's financial situation:

 

https://fortune.com/2023/04/20/bob-iger-disney-stock-turnaround-streaming/

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I would have assumed that all the music and themes he wrote for Star Wars were property of Lucasfilm and they can do whatever they want with them. They might have to pay royalties though, so it might be a cost-cutting measure.

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If it's a cost-cutting measure, that doesn't bode well for expanded sequel scores and their re-use fees. 

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The music in the first clip is library music called Kiss and Spell by James Brett, from Extreme Music. Maybe Disney would indeed have to pay a bomb to Williams for that clip, but library music comparatively costs next to nothing.

 

https://www.extrememusic.com/search?blank=0&query=KISS AND SPELL

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Michael Grigorowitsch said:

maybe also John Williams himself doesn't want Lucasfilm to commercialise the f*ck out of his music (anymore). 

 

Warner Brothers plasters his Harry Potter score pretty much anywhere they can (compared to any music by Doyle/Hooper/Desplat).  So I guess he *is* open to the merchandising of his music.

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You'd think that, but I've been collecting stock music from a series of 90s primetime shows from a major American network. Apparently it was out of the question for them to use commercial music for almost all cases, and stock music was by far more cost-effective.

 

Of course Disney itself owns the music in this case and I don't know how that might change the sync costs, i.e whether the bulk of the cost is still due to the artist.

 

But it might simply be that the fees owed to Williams even for synchronising on a bunch of YouTube videos add up, and stock music is a way to save some money. The average person will not even notice the music playing underneath.

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13 hours ago, Michael Grigorowitsch said:

maybe also John Williams himself doesn't want Lucasfilm to commercialise the f*ck out of his music (anymore).

 

I think this is an important point. While the whole achievement of what Williams had achieved on Star Wars lies exactly in how much music, for how many entries across how many years he's engendered (that forwards the overriding narrative, that is) at some point the use of these themes can become a reducio ad absurdum.

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Honestly, I think modern-day Disney has "John Williams Star Wars scores" VERY VERY LOW in their list of priorities. They are extremely busy trying to figure out a way to make people stop cancelling their Disney+ subscriptions without overspending with new TV shows like they were doing. Who cares about music for some old movies? Especially when the OSTs (which, in their point of view, contains everything people need from those scores) are on streaming services.

 

If I was pessimistic before when they were in a good financial state, now that they're in crisis I think the odds of they dedicating time and effort to the Williams scores are as low as Uwe Boll receiving an Oscar for Best Director.

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13 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Honestly, I think modern-day Disney has "John Williams Star Wars scores" VERY VERY LOW in their list of priorities.

 

Executives probably don't even know there is work to be done, tbh... "those old movies already have 2-CD sets... what's the problem?". The bigger the company, the less likely they have people who know precisely what it is the fans want.

 

I tend to be on the fan side with the prequels as there can't surely be any problem with elements. Hence I tend to assume that JW is in a mega-comfort zone with his albums and isn't in a rush to expand those.

 

The latest trilogy... I'm inclined to believe that JW would react to expansions of those in the same way as the proposition of including extra music for KotCS in the Indy box... not a chance as they came out so recently.

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40 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Executives probably don't even know there is work to be done, tbh... "those old movies already have 2-CD sets... what's the problem?". The bigger the company, the less likely they have people who know precisely what it is the fans want.

Exactly.

 

15 minutes ago, Brónach said:

i would also react that about about extra music for KotCS

KOTCS is a much better score in its complete form than the OST.

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3 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Executives probably don't even know there is work to be done, tbh... "those old movies already have 2-CD sets... what's the problem?". The bigger the company, the less likely they have people who know precisely what it is the fans want.

 

I tend to be on the fan side with the prequels as there can't surely be any problem with elements. Hence I tend to assume that JW is in a mega-comfort zone with his albums and isn't in a rush to expand those.

 

The latest trilogy... I'm inclined to believe that JW would react to expansions of those in the same way as the proposition of including extra music for KotCS in the Indy box... not a chance as they came out so recently.

True, but this is where Michael Gorfaine comes into the picture. Mike Matessino consults with him and asks him to tell John Williams what La-La Land and the fans want and asks him (Gorfaine that is) to talk to Kathleen Kennedy (or one of her assistants) and let her know that people want these scores more than any of the new films. Then Kennedy has a big evil laugh and does nothing and everything stays the same until it doesn’t, because either Williams asks Spielberg to ask Bob Iger or KK to do something or KK retires and a new president actually understands how important Williams’ scores are and orders their release. 
 

The really sad thing is that this is how these decisions actually happen. Someone with power says “go” and the rest is just “paperwork”. 

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34 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

This is what drives me mental. No doubt the boutique labels have been asking Disney for years if they could license the Star Wars or Indy scores for expansions, but they refuse to let anyone else touch them (unless it's a physical release of a title already released by Walt Disney Records).

 

And yet they do nothing with the music themselves. It's maddening! We went through nearly two decade of this nonsense with Sony when they had the license... now the exact same thing is happening under Disney.

 

If score expansions are so low on the priority list for these big labels, why not license it out to a company that'll do all the work and pay for the privilege?

Agreed. I think that, in their point of view, they need to concentrate and centralize everything about their most powerful brands (Lucasfilm, Marvel, Pixar, etc) in their own company. It's the same company after all that won't let anyone outside of Disney touch Mickey Mouse.

 

It would be amazing if they let LLL do the SW/Indy expansions in their place because we all know that specialty labels would do a much better job than them (just look at the woeful Rogue One expansion). But Disney would rather go bankrupt than let anyone touch their precious franchises.

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44 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

It would be amazing if they let LLL do the SW/Indy expansions in their place because we all know that specialty labels would do a much better job than them (just look at the woeful Rogue One expansion). But Disney would rather go bankrupt than let anyone touch their precious franchises.

 

The absurd part is LLL/Intrada would probably happily let DIsney retain digital/streaming rights in exchange for exclusivity to physical units (like Mondo with the Rogue One expansion).

 

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On 12/05/2023 at 12:25 AM, Richard Penna said:

The music in the first clip is library music called Kiss and Spell by James Brett, from Extreme Music. Maybe Disney would indeed have to pay a bomb to Williams for that clip, but library music comparatively costs next to nothing.

 

https://www.extrememusic.com/search?blank=0&query=KISS AND SPELL

With this and the Anthony Daniels march, James Brett is the new John Williams!

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I really think it's as simple as the people left in charge of Star Wars don't know anything about the brand. They're Kennedy hires who inherited this thing they never cared for in the first place and know nothing about. I often point out how nobody knows and obsesses over this stuff like we here do. Even with that, normal people who know and love Star Wars knows and adores Star Wars music by John Williams. 

 

On 11/05/2023 at 8:04 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

The Lego Skywalker Saga trailers and promo clips all used Extreme Music as well, mostly James Brett material and the rest from Ralf Wienrich.

 

Kind of embarrassing that a massive company like Disney needs to resort to using stock music and sound-alikes for their largest IP.

 

Lego Skywalker Saga is a great example of this. Musically is a straight up downgrade from Complete Saga. Complete Saga just used Williams Star Wars music, but they did it RIGHT. The people who worked on the game knew Star Wars music to the point where the opening crawls for each chapter were the right recordings based on what movie that chapter was from. 

 

Fast forward to the modern age with Skywalker Saga and all 9 movies use the '77 version of the opening crawl, because the people in charge couldn't care less. Then, on top of that, instead of just using Williams music, the game is riddled with what sounds like a bad AI imitation of JW Star Wars music. 

 

So it's really not a lack of money or lack of ability, it's a lack of knowledge which leads to a lack of caring. 

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So the fuck is up with Kennedy specifically asking JW to make a theme for Obi-Wan (and potentially overhauling Hoult's work to have Ross be a part of the project) then? That seems like a major contradiction if the idea is that they don't know what the fans want, since there still is also them hiring people like Kiner and Haab for several of the spin offs. Of course, none of those are advertisements, so you could argue the big productions are more worthy investments for them to put in the money for the music.

Do we have a general idea of what the public thinks of the sequel trilogy scores? Because I'm almost tempted to wonder if the only reason we're getting rip offs these days is because internal polls were filled with people who loved that TFA trailer house track more than anything Williams actually wrote in the last 10 years.

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3 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

So the fuck is up with Kennedy specifically asking JW to make a theme for Obi-Wan (and potentially overhauling Hoult's work to have Ross be a part of the project) then?

Only after they realised the score they forced Hoult to write (including making her drop Leia's Theme-related ideas) sucked ass.

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So they do know how important it is, but are only using it in select instances. Doesn't really clear up much still.

Why aren't we entertaining the idea more that JW doesn't like his work being commercialized like that if we've accepted him becoming more involved in approving how his work is used these days? Are we that desperate to trash Disney/Lucasfilm in every conceivable manner to ignore the actual conjecture we have of the Maestro's opinions?

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3 hours ago, HunterTech said:

Do we have a general idea of what the public thinks of the sequel trilogy scores?

 

from what i've seen, rey theme good but generally unmemorable. they like The Spark too.

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8 hours ago, SilverTrumpet said:

So it's really not a lack of money or lack of ability, it's a lack of knowledge which leads to a lack of caring. 

I think it’s both. They (meaning Kennedy) only use John Williams’ themes or ask him to write a new one if they know that without the fans of the original Star Wars films the show would flop and they want to lure them in with an original Williams theme. Other than that I don’t think Kennedy cares one bit. She was smart enough to ask Williams to write the sequel scores, but why would she care about releasing the remastered scores when she’s concentrating on the new films

and tv shows. She’s a business woman and apparently she doesn’t see any profit in releasing the Star Wars scores. What can I say, she’s no George Lucas.

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By that logic, I would probably give George crap for not being considerate of the fans over leaving the UEs for AotC and RotS unreleased, even if he has the better track record with the OT and TPM (flawed as they are). And if anyone tells me Sony Music was the problem in that time, then why must it only be Kennedy/Iger this time? Actually give me some information that isn't hypothesized without any means for verifying it here.

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i was going to say that they want you paying Disney+ and not physical discs, but then it occured to me that the physical discs are merchandising, and they love that, so i don't get it. but it does make sense from the modern perspective of "rent everything, buy nothing".

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4 hours ago, JTW said:

She was smart enough to ask Williams to write the sequel scores, but why would she care about releasing the remastered scores when she’s concentrating on the new films

and tv shows. She’s a business woman and apparently she doesn’t see any profit in releasing the Star Wars scores

Exactly. People in the upper echelons of Disney are so busy trying to maximize profits with their brands that they simply don't have time for something as niche as complete Star Wars scores. Just put the old OSTs on streaming services and leave it there for its enough for the fans (at least this is what they think).

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14 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

Uh, "maximize profits" isn't what they're concerned with right now, more like minimize losses.

Yeah, that's a more apt description :lol:

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A lot more discussion than I expected. But certainly nobody knows.

 

It would be VERY interesting if JW has actually drawn a line in the sand and said "No." They only scenario I can imagine is if he's looking ahead to where he not only doesn't make these decisions (as he hasn't stopped any of these licensed games, ads, or web shows from using his music or themes before) but thinking that soon he'll be gone and he doesn't want a blanket "It's all OK" for things he will never know about.

 

But I've made that up completely, of course.

 

IMHO it feels very bean counter-y.

 

On 13/05/2023 at 11:04 AM, Edmilson said:

But Disney would rather go bankrupt than let anyone touch their precious franchises.

 

If letting LLL come out with a Star Wars set (likely limited to thousands) will save Dis from bankruptcy then my grasp of economics is weaker than I thought.

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On 14/05/2023 at 2:02 AM, HunterTech said:

So the fuck is up with Kennedy specifically asking JW to make a theme for Obi-Wan (and potentially overhauling Hoult's work to have Ross be a part of the project) then?

 

Holt's score was that bad. Even in my own circles, I had Star Wars fans who really had at best 101 level knowledge of the music point out how bad the music was in that show. Unless it's Williams and talking about how great it is, nobody really brings up the music.

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55 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

 

Holt's score was that bad. Even in my own circles, I had Star Wars fans who really had at best 101 level knowledge of the music point out how bad the music was in that show. Unless it's Williams and talking about how great it is, nobody really brings up the music.

Idk I think Andor's score was about as equal in caliber to Kenobi or maybe even a little worse and yet a lot of mainstream Star Wars fans praise that score to no end

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I hate to throw a spanner in the works, but...isn't the title of this thread a contradiction in terms?

If the music is used in Star Wars, then, surely, it is Star Wars music.

What kind of music is being used? Acid Jazz?

 

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2 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

I hate to throw a spanner in the works, but...isn't the title of this thread a contradiction in terms?

If the music is used in Star Wars, then, surely, it is Star Wars music.

What kind of music is being used? Acid Jazz?

 

 

While I see your point, they played Holst's Mars in the commercials for the 1995 video releases. Does that make Holst Star Wars music (as opposed to, as is generally accepted, the other way around)?

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