SPOILER TALK: Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

[Brónach 1,302]

after all the discourse, he's starting to look too old to me in Crusade

[mstrox 6,651]

He was too old for Raiders.  They should have given it to Kirk Cameron

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

22 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

I certainly don't think we'd have four sequels.

 

If only.

[Chen G. 3,949]

7 hours ago, Brónach said:

after all the discourse, he's starting to look too old to me in Crusade

 

He's right on the verge in that one, arguably.

[Tom 4,654]

12 hours ago, Brónach said:

after all the discourse, he's starting to look too old to me in Crusade

Spielberg should have directed Rain Man instead.  

[Brónach 1,302]

12 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

He's right on the verge in that one, arguably.

 

are we going by looks, Harrison's age, or fictional age? i'm going by looks and unfortunately for Indy, the character may look older than he is in general given his... activities. but i also feel kind of bad about thinking this. i don't look at Crusade and think "this casting is wrong". but he *is* too old.

 

then there's the whole "virility" as described here

• drug consumption, although the dropped the idea of making him a victim of alcoholism. although i guess most alcoholics are undiagnosed?
• aggression, although he doesn't seem to needlessly pick fights.
• getting into dangerous situations (arguably fun, I don't think anybody would complain lol)
• sex with women, although heavily de-emphasized in the movies and momentarily played for laughs in Temple of Doom.
• ¿?

i guess it's important for people. however, i'm generally more curious about the representation of the unqueers in other kinds of movies, ones that don't have melting nazis.

[TolkienSS 407]

43 minutes ago, Brónach said:

 

are we going by looks, Harrison's age, or fictional age? i'm going by looks and unfortunately for Indy, the character may look older than he is in general given his... activities. but i also feel kind of bad about thinking this. i don't look at Crusade and think "this casting is wrong". but he *is* too old.

 

then there's the whole "virility" as described here

• drug consumption, although the dropped the idea of making him a victim of alcoholism. although i guess most alcoholics are undiagnosed?
• aggression, although he doesn't seem to needlessly pick fights.
• getting into dangerous situations (arguably fun, I don't think anybody would complain lol)
• sex with women, although heavily de-emphasized in the movies and momentarily played for laughs in Temple of Doom.
• ¿?

i guess it's important for people. however, i'm generally more curious about the representation of the unqueers in other kinds of movies, ones that don't have melting nazis.

 

To be honest, I don't think you have a clue what virility is about, given this list.

[Brónach 1,302]

i know, i got the list from JWFAN

 

my curiosity started with the idea that being a father is not "masculine". "being a father is not jamesbondian" made more sense to me in that context.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

2 hours ago, Brónach said:

• ¿?

A/ I'm impressed

B/ How did you do it?

C/ What on Earth does it mean?

[Tom 4,654]

Virile, in Indy's sense, is the set of character traits inclusive of courage, strength, ingenuity, but with a hefty nobility of self-sacrifice.  I would argue the whole character arc in ToD is Indy going from merely fun, adventurous (but ultimately very selfish--fortune and glory motive) to a willingness to take risks/death for the sake of others, even those with whom he has not connection (the slave children).  The fact that he is always in over his head and knows it makes it silly fun versus the more "serious" hero in a John Wayne-soldier sort of way.  

 

James Bond is borderline psychopathic in how he interacts with woman/others.  He's presented as the epitome of cool more so than heroic.  

[Brónach 1,302]

14 hours ago, Tom said:

Virile, in Indy's sense, is the set of character traits inclusive of courage, strength, ingenuity, but with a hefty nobility of self-sacrifice.  I would argue the whole character arc in ToD is Indy going from merely fun, adventurous (but ultimately very selfish--fortune and glory motive) to a willingness to take risks/death for the sake of others, even those with whom he has not connection (the slave children).  The fact that he is always in over his head and knows it makes it silly fun versus the more "serious" hero in a John Wayne-soldier sort of way.  

 

James Bond is borderline psychopathic in how he interacts with woman/others.  He's presented as the epitome of cool more so than heroic.  

 

great reply. i think i like about indy that he manages to have and make friends everywhere for reasons such as these. (also enemies, but)

 

22 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

A/ I'm impressed

B/ How did you do it?

C/ What on Earth does it mean?

 

there are a bunch of ways to input ¿: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_question_and_exclamation_marks#Computer_usage. it actually just means the same as ?

[Jay 37,352]

They've gone and put Karen Allen's name on the new poster (4th name listed, even), so I guess it's not a spoiler anymore that she's in the film, but really it begs the question why keep her involvement a secret until now if they were just gonna spoil it on the poster anyway?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

Karen Allen billed before Toby Jones?! It's outrageous! Outrageous!!!

[mstrox 6,651]

Contract negotiations trump spoilers, I guess!

[Jay 37,352]

But if they knew she'd be there on the poster when they hired her, why not mention before this poster drop that she'd be in it?  Why make her avoid answering the question at interviews?

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

They wanted to keep her death a secret for as long as possible?

[mstrox 6,651]

I think from a point of spoiler-consciousness, they’re assuming, and probably correctly, that the average moviegoer would not read the credits on a poster.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

Or maybe they've just accepted the reality.

 

Spoiler

MARION...WE'VE GOT MARION HERE!!!

 

Spoiler

 

[Jay 37,352]

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

 

[Edmilson 7,436]

A small, mostly unimportant spoiler that I find amusing nonetheless:

 

Quote

Disney never quite had the chutzpah to put their castle logo at the front of a Star Wars movie, but they’ve done it to Indy. Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny gets that, then the Paramount mountain, then finally the Lucasfilm logo, thereby breaking the franchise tradition of having the Para-mountain dissolve into something very similar in the opening shot. Instead, the Lucasfilm logo dissolves into a similarly shaped lock on a Nazi truck, symbolism that Star Wars sequel bashers will no doubt have a field day with.

https://www.superherohype.com/features/537607-indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destiny-review-ford-tough

 

Starting an Indy movie with the Disney castle is something I find so... Odd.

[Faleel 5,346]

Forget that!

Spoiler

Not using transitioning from the mountain!?

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

I'd rather have gopher-gate, over this crap.

[TolkienSS 407]

Isn't a transitioning mountain very progressive?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

It's about as innovative as the Warner Bros. logo becoming the Batman sign.

It might work, or it might not, but I'd rather have the Paramount mountain, any day.

[Jay 37,352]

9 hours ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

Forget that!

  Hide contents

Not using transitioning from the mountain!?

 

 

Why did you use a spoiler block in the spoilers-allowed thread? 

[Edmilson 7,436]

3 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

It might work, or it might not, but I'd rather have the Paramount mountain, any day.

I prefer the Paramount logo transitioning (lol) too, but how could they do that since, well, this is not a Paramount movie?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

Yeah, I know . Great shame.

[Faleel 5,346]

5 hours ago, Jay said:

 

Why did you use a spoiler block in the spoilers-allowed thread? 

Because I didn't realize what thread I was in st first, then was too lazy to fix it.

4 hours ago, Edmilson said:

I prefer the Paramount logo transitioning (lol) too, but how could they do that since, well, this is not a Paramount movie?

But it says it's in the movie?

[Edmilson 7,436]

6 minutes ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

But it says it's in the movie

According to the review below, the movie begins with the Disney castle, then the Paramount mountain and the Lucasfilm logo before beginning the actual movie:

 

https://www.superherohype.com/features/537607-indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destiny-review-ford-tough

 

I imagine they could've done the same they did with The Avengers and Iron Man 3, which also include the mountain:

 

 

[1977 1,743]

How does the Indy title appear in the film? Is it like Raiders/Crusade, or Temple (using the poster font)?

[Garrett 153]

On 18/6/2023 at 5:20 AM, JTWfan77 said:

How does the Indy title appear in the film? Is it like Raiders/Crusade, or Temple (using the poster font)?

I haven’t seen the movie, but James Mangold said on Twitter about a year ago that he would be using Raiders/Crusade font.

[Thor 7,495]

God almighty, I skimmed through this thread and that was a depressing read. So much negativity! And the film hasn't even premiered properly yet.

 

I actually liked the film. Mostly. But as I said in the other thread, I need to reconcile some of that with how different it is to the existing Indys in style and tone. I haven't really sorted that out yet. But certainly some scenes that would be interesting to discuss. Like the whole sequence set during the siege of Sardinia in Roman times. A missed opportunity for Williams, since there's no "old school" Roman epic music there. I would have loved to hear him try his hands on that, like he did in GIDGET GOES TO ROME. Also, once you're there, either keep it short and tantalizing or extrapolate to be properly engrossed. I felt perhaps this scene did neither/nor.

 

CGI Ford in the first act was surprisingly well done. Maybe the best de-aging I've seen, even though we're still far away from making it totally believable.

 

Mostly, though, I missed Douglas Slocombe. Kaminski did a pretty good tribute to him in CRYSTAL SKULL (a film I've always found extremely underrated), but Phedon Papamichael has gone completely "LOGAN". That looks good in and of itself, but far removed from the previous films.

 

Loved the 'travelogue' bit of it, although there were no properly exotic locations. No jungles this time. Nice to see the maps & lines return.

 

Indy referencing TEMPLE OF DOOM was also nice, when he talks to Helena about his ageing body and what it has gone through ("Yeah, but you haven't drunk Kali's blood. And been tortured with voodoo!").

[Brónach 1,302]

exotic to where? so much stuff shot in Spain in the third one

[Thor 7,495]

9 minutes ago, Brónach said:

exotic to where? so much stuff shot in Spain in the third one

 

I suppose Morocco is the most exotic location in this one. Very little "greenery", though. Not that TLC had much greenery in it either.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

On 17/06/2023 at 4:59 AM, Edmilson said:

A small, mostly unimportant spoiler that I find amusing nonetheless:

 

https://www.superherohype.com/features/537607-indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destiny-review-ford-tough

 

Starting an Indy movie with the Disney castle is something I find so... Odd.

They should've put a Nazi castle on a mountain.

Two birds with one stone.

[Thor 7,495]

Oooh, speaking of mountains, I forgot to say: I missed the Paramount logo gag of the previous films. In fact, the only visual gag in the film is the scene that was already in the trailers, the scene with Indy standing at the end of the table with all the guns on him after some whipping.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

On 31/05/2023 at 3:51 PM, Naïve Old Fart said:

Karen Allen billed before Toby Jones?! It's outrageous! Outrageous!!!

 

Franchise returnees have an upper hand in billing - contractually speaking. 

[pete 907]

According to these guys, Williams was correct when he said they were filming another ending. I'm not too fussed either way, but these guys are pretty pissed that Mangold said Williams was mistaken. I don't think Williams would have minded. If true, he was probably like "Opps, oh well, you should have told me it was a secret"

 

Their description of the ending is consistent with some spoilers I've read - they explore it a little more by saying there's no explanation how Helena gets Indy back to the present. Just a punch in the face to knock him out and then Indy wakes up and Marion is back. Would be curious if anyone who saw it also thought there was no explanation. And apparently Ford said recently the ending was redone, although he could have been talking about an earlier reshoot.

 

And perhaps we have the reshoot to thank for the existance of the arrangement of Helena's Theme for violin? If Williams had to return to the recording studio to just record a few minutes of music, perhaps he decided to make fuller use of the recording session? Williams thinking... "What else could I record? - Arghh... cookies!" I had first thought/hoped that the violin arrangement was a clue that an Across the Stars Volume 2 album was in the works, but maybe it was just because Williams had recording to time he wanted to kill.

 

 

 

[TolkienSS 407]

Oh no, Disney employees being malicious towards fans and lying through their teeth get exposed. Never seen that before.

 

Same stuff, different day. 

 

And let's be clear about this: fans who are so vocal about their displeasure, exist purely because companies and associated media started to insult fans, spit on them, and called for them to be shunned.

 

I can't wait for the day Disney collapses and is forced to finally blame themselves.

[Brónach 1,302]

well then we should support the end of copyright law as it's currently in the usa, and bring back the antitrust rules against monopolies that fell by the wayside, and so on

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

15 hours ago, pete said:

 

 

That's awful!  Gamers truly are the most oppressed class

[TheAvengerButton 175]

Truly awful. You mean to tell me that the way movies have been made for decades are still being made that way?

 

I'm being harsh, I apologize. I just don't understand how a lot of the "angry fan" takes are actually supposed to make me angry, but then again I'm most likely autistic or have some sort of personality disorder so I may just not understand. Like, this is a fairly normal phenomenom. Movies get shot and reshot and creators want to keep things a secret for reasons and those reasons don't have to be malicious.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

Against my better judgement I skimmed through that video. It seems to boil down to a bunch of Indy megafans being angry at Mangold for suggesting Williams was mistaken, and perhaps just trying to keep the eventual ending a secret, given how everything leaks these days.

 

Or at worst maybe Mangold realised they had made a mistake with the apparent original ending and tried to quash the rumous and just focus on the movie he did make?

 

I mean, my ultimate take from the video is: why am I supposed to be angry about this? It's a movie.

[Brónach 1,302]

no, it's a conspiracy. they made a worse ending on purpose following the orders of some shady figure, and then tried to keep it a secret. thankfully, our hero John Williams leaked the abominable truth to the public at large. you must listen! LISTEN TO ME!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

46 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

...why am I supposed to be angry about this? It's a movie.

 

Why are you supposed to be angry?

Have you seen THE RISE OF SKYWALKER? 

[Giftheck 916]

On 22/06/2023 at 11:55 PM, Pieter Boelen said:

They should've put a Nazi castle on a mountain.

Two birds with one stone.

 

Only if Indy goes there as a Scottish Lord looking for tapestries.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

If you are Scottish lord, then I am Mickey Mouse!

 

How dare he!

[crocodile 8,006]

Just seen the film. Haven't heard almost any of the music or seen any spoilers. It's a mixed bag. Some of it is quite fun actually, some of it I didn't care for. The main gripe really is that, once again, Indy is a secondary character that needs to be dragged everywhere. And, oddly, he's been once again investigated by authorities and, again, nothing comes of it. But at least some of the action and cinematography both feel more real and tactile. The main McGuffin I did not care for much. I wasn't following that too close, to be honest. The climax felt quite disjointed.

 

The music was good, although I struggled to hear it a lot of the time under the sound effects. The multiple musical easter eggs at the beginning might seem slightly frustrating at first but they also make some sense at least. Williams definitely doesn't sound his age. Thankfully, the film wasn’t too overspotted so music never feels as siffocating as in some recent blockbusters.

 

I have no strong feelings about this movie one way or another. There's just as much good stuff in it as there is not so good stuff. Neither a disaster nor a triumph, just "another one".

 

Just one more thing. Indy is sad a lot of the time and see him being dragged into endless chases feels bit cruel. He really is tired and something about this whole affair, especially next to over-enthusiastic Waller-Bridge, makes it all seem, I don't know, wrong? I'm not saying Ford can't pull it off physically but there's just this weird undignified feeling of trying to recapture certain feeling that is long gone. Even in the WWII sequence, the de-ageing doesn't look right. It feels off. Instead of being swept by adventures, I kept catching myself thinking about ageing and mortality... Not sure if it wouldn't be best to just leave it be.

 

Karol

[rough cut 1,714]

So I just saw Indiana Jones And The Dial Of Destiny.

 

So I know spoilers are allowed in this thread, but still…

.

.

.

Here’s a photo of the end credits btw. I was on the balcony, that’s the metal railing showing at the bottom of the photo.

 

.

.

.

OK, so spoilers.

 

Initially, the crowd in the theatre was excited, applauding as the concierge introduced the movie and the curtains drew back. Oh my, how that would change…

 

Let me start by pointing out a thing that would annoy any true fan: There was no dissolve of the Paramount logo! Instead there’s a dissolve of the Lucasfilm logo, and it’s the shittiest transition you’ve ever seen.

 

Then there’s CGI Indy jumping around on a train, looking quite rubbery when the camera is zoomed back. There’s a call back to Indy running on the roof of a train. Get ready for a lot of call backs - it’s the first of many! De-aged Ford is fine I guess, but is it just me, or is something still a little bit off when using this technology?

 

The plot is revealed very early on, and so is the function of the mcguffin: time travel if you hadn’t figured it out by the title of the movie. Still, it’s a bit sad to see it spelled out so early in the movie, it removes a lot of the mystery. In Raiders, we didn’t really know what the Ark would do, and that is sort of a structure they kept through all

the movies (except maybe the third one, but there Indy also waived immortality off as nonsense, which isn’t the case here).

 

There’s a lot of running around where we, the audience, already know where it’ll end which isn’t exactly thrilling.

 

Somewhere in the middle Indy said the obligatory “It belongs in a museum”, because catchphrase, which gathered absolutely zero response from the audience who seemed to be tired of the movie very early on.

 

In terms of audience reaction - since this was a premiere showing, I’d expected whoops and cheers and spontaneous applause… none, except for the first one before the movie even had started. I think there were three laugh-out-loud moments in the entire thing.

 

Helena, portrayed by Phoebe Waller-Bridge whom I was previously unaware of but who seems to be a great actor with alot of charisma, but my God, what an annoying character. There’s a lot of Rey Skywalker in her.

 

Sallah shows up but doesn’t really do anything. There’s a CIA plot that doesn’t go anywhere. Why even put it in the script to begin with?

 

The movie seemed to be a lot crueler than the other Indy movies. A lot if people are straight up murdered, and not just “extras”, but seems big characters in the movie, both Banderas’ diver and CIA lady.

 

A positive note is that the aesthetics are amazing. The furniture, the cars, the clothes. Every backdrop is gorgeous. So that’s something, I guess.

 

The end is unremarkable since we already knew that it was time travel - we just didn’t know to when. And the movie does nothing interesting with it. For a moment I actually thought that Indy would stay there in 200 BC and give Helena the hat and say, with a wry smile, “You don’t need me. You’ve got this, kid”. Thankfully, she punches him in the face instead - which actually garnered one of the few responses from the audience: laughter. A comment on the movie, perhaps?

The music was great, naturally. Raider’s March was used sparingly but at the correct times. Marion’s Theme pops up at the appropriate places as well. I had a hard time identifying Helena’s Theme but that’s probably because I’m unfamiliar with the piece. All in all, I’m looking forward to the OST.

 

Oh, and I took another photo of the end credits. Hm, now, why did I take this one?