Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (Cannes Score reactions)

[MrJosh 783]

I wonder if the Tintin "lifts" are Ross adaptations.

 

Regardless, I'm super excited to hear the score. So glad we will have 5 Indy scores by Williams. What a gift!

[mrbellamy 5,891]

6 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

• I think there are some straight lifts from Tintin. I think the Tintin End Credits piece is ripped off for one of the set pieces. Almost note for note.

 

Just to clarify...are you talking about The Duel/The Adventure Continues? Bc I'd be pretty down for that.

 

 

Also was the map cue you mentioned scored with the Raiders theme or was it something original? 

[crumbs 13,540]

8 minutes ago, MrJosh said:

I wonder if the Tintin "lifts" are Ross adaptations.

 

Yep, I suspect something along these lines.

 

Mangold already said Williams only planned to do the themes then hand off the score to his "team" (aka Ross). Clearly JW just kept writing, but he might have thrown a few cues to Ross and told him to adapt specific cues from other films.

[DangerMotif 877]

14 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

 

Just to clarify...are you talking about The Duel/The Adventure Continues? Bc I'd be pretty down for that.

 

 

Also was the map cue you mentioned scored with the Raiders theme or was it something original? 

Tintin is probably the last JW’s gem. Such an amazing score

[Jay 33,667]

No way!  War Horse and Lincoln were both after Tintin and they are fantastic scores!

[Tom 3,997]

10 minutes ago, DangerMotif said:

Tintin is probably the last JW’s gem. Such an amazing score

It is a (very underrated, in my mind) gem, but not the last one. 

[crumbs 13,540]

And we can't fully appreciate what he wrote for TFA or TROS, given the percentage of music unreleased.

 

6 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

There are several villainous themes as I noted above, they are good.

 

Just hypothesizing but could one of these "villain" themes actually be the Dial theme/motif?

 

Both the Ark and Skull themes are dark/ominous; I've no idea how the Dial factors into the narrative but maybe that's just how Williams approached it musically.

 

Or maybe the Dial motif is just used sparingly, which isn't unprecedented. I don't recall the Sankara Stones motif appearing more than twice in TOD (I'm probably wrong).

[Romão 2,236]

Honestly, I much rather have a great score on album than a great movie, but it wouldn't hurt to have both.

 

If the movie is indeed lackluster, it's another lesson that good things from the past should be well left alone. You can't go back to you childhood. You must let of your toys. Stop fighting back

[Cerebral Cortex 3,336]

18 minutes ago, DangerMotif said:

Tintin is probably the last JW’s gem. Such an amazing score

 

 

[Romão 2,236]

19 minutes ago, DangerMotif said:

Tintin is probably the last JW’s gem. Such an amazing score

 

And I think it really benefits from being allowed to be its own thing, not having to pay lip service to previous movies and scenes.

 

Sometimes I feel bad for JW when he's constantly being asked to play his greatest hits one more time

[bollemanneke 3,064]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

 

Yep, I suspect something along these lines.

 

Mangold already said Williams only planned to do the themes then hand off the score to his "team" (aka Ross). Clearly JW just kept writing, but he might have thrown a few cues to Ross and told him to adapt specific cues from other films.

There we go, that makes the entire score worthless then. Damn Ross strikes again.

[Brónach 1,190]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

No way!  War Horse and Lincoln were both after Tintin and they are fantastic scores!

 

War Horse is the last gem.

[Pawel P. 727]

I think his last gem so far is the entire sequel trilogy, which is excellent from start to finish.

[Brónach 1,190]

I think you could inject Rey's Theme or Anthem of Evil into my veins and I would be ok with it.

[Taikomochi 1,018]

Sequel trilogy is his magnum opus

[Brónach 1,190]

I actually lost the Tintin CD, sad.

 

I remember there was a bunch of "I don't like it" here in 2011.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,369]

8 hours ago, Alex said:

Wow, I can’t believe this.

 

And also surprising to hear that most of the music was temped with Gordy Haab's score for Battlefront again! 

[Tom 3,997]

2 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

And also surprising to hear that most of the music was temped with Gordy Haab's score for Battlefront again! 

Ross needs his inspirations.  

[Edmilson 5,663]

4 hours ago, crumbs said:

Mangold already said Williams only planned to do the themes then hand off the score to his "team" (aka Ross). Clearly JW just kept writing, but he might have thrown a few cues to Ross and told him to adapt specific cues from other films.

That would explain (a bit) what happened in Chamber of Secrets.

 

Speaking of which, one of these days I'll try to put together a spreadsheet featuring all Chamber cues and classify them by how I think they were conceived:

• Williams wrote the cue;
• Ross adapted a new JW theme;
• Ross adapted an older JW theme or material from HPPS;
•  Something else entirely.

[Jay 33,667]

16 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Speaking of which, one of these days I'll try to put together a spreadsheet featuring all Chamber cues and classify them by how I think they were conceived:

• Williams wrote the cue;
• Ross adapted a new JW theme;
• Ross adapted an older JW theme or material from HPPS;
•  Something else entirely.

 

Isn't that what @Holko already did here?

[bollemanneke 3,064]

1 hour ago, Brónach said:

I think you could inject Rey's Theme or Anthem of Evil into my veins and I would be ok with it.

I'll take Rey training from TROS.

[Holko 8,615]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

 

Isn't that what @Holko already did here?

I was more analytical with it without jumping to purely speculative conclusions

[Edmilson 5,663]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

 

Isn't that what @Holko already did here?

I disagree with some of his conclusions. Either way, I'd just speculate what is the story behind each cue, he focused mainly on If a cue is adapted or original material, etc.

 

But don't need to worry, it'll probably be a long time before I have enough free time to dedicate myself to it.

[Chen G. 3,346]

9 hours ago, Romão said:

Sometimes I feel bad for JW when he's constantly being asked to play his greatest hits one more time

 

I'm in two minds on this topic. On the one hand, Williams writes for these film series in a leitmotivic vein, so his themes lend themselves to repetition (and variation!) from entry to entry.

 

But, then again, Williams prides himself upon basing each new score primarily on new motives: a little bit like how Die Walküre (unlike, say, the first two acts of Siegfried) is largely based on new themes not heard (as such) in Das Rheingold.

 

As the series Williams scored grew longer and longer, he had been made to break away with his usual practice: Revenge of the Sith and The Last Jedi, in particular, were more steeped in pre-existing themes than is his usual practice. On the other extreme, you have The Prisoner of Azkaban, of course.

[Tom 3,997]

I think the last 24 hours have adjusted my expectations (which were always going to be unreasonably high) about both the film and score.  However, I think that is a good thing.  I was really hoping for a throwback patriotic parade piece, but that seems unlikely.  I like Helena's theme but am not blown away by it (I liked Fabelmans much better).  Not sure what my point is, but there you go. 

 

For everyone's enjoyment:

 

[Romão 2,236]

From IGN's negative review:

 

A returning John Williams remains a saving grace, providing grand musical motifs and familiar tunes at just the right moments.

 

and

 

Earnest final efforts from Harrison Ford and John Williams couldn’t rescue a movie so directionless and haphazard

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

I'm in two minds on this topic. On the one hand, Williams writes for these film series in a leitmotivic vein, so his themes lend themselves to repetition (and variation!) from entry to entry.

 

But, then again, Williams prides himself upon basing each new score primarily on new motives: a little bit like how Die Walküre (unlike, say, the first two acts of Siegfried) is largely based on new themes not heard (as such) in Das Rheingold.

 

As the series Williams scored grew longer and longer, he had been made to break away with his usual practice: Revenge of the Sith and The Last Jedi, in particular, were more steeped in pre-existing themes than is his usual practice. On the other extreme, you have The Prisoner of Azkaban, of course.

 

 

Great post.

 

Although, we only got a score like Azkaban because it was made shortly after the first two movies.

 

Had the movie been released years later as a sort of "Legacy Sequel", no way would've they asked or allowed JW to score the movie the way he did

[LB Makes Stuff 142]

That ign review is confusing. They go on about how nostalgia heavy it is, despite other reviews saying there’s barely any. Are they really saying the Map plane sequence is overdoing it?

[Tom 3,997]

1 hour ago, Romão said:

From IGN's negative review:

 

Earnest final efforts from Harrison Ford and John Williams couldn’t rescue a movie so directionless and haphazard

 

 

It is hard for me to believe this could be the case, but many reviews seem to indicate this.  How could they screw this up?  Yes, probably the wrong thread, but I just need to see this movie myself and be done with it.  

[mrbellamy 5,891]

I'm really just expecting to have a passively fun time the way I do with most big action movies (except the really great ones), where the strategy when all else fails is to just have a bunch of shit happening, which is basically amusing to watch if not very involving. 

 

And sounds like it's less self-parodying and more heartfelt than Crystal Skull. But maybe a bit more of a drag getting through 2.5 hours. John Williams will help. 

[crumbs 13,540]

1 hour ago, mrbellamy said:

I'm really just expecting to have a passively fun time the way I do with most big action movies (except the really great ones), where the strategy when all else fails is to just have a bunch of shit happening, which is basically amusing to watch if not very involving. 

 

And sounds like it's less self-parodying and more heartfelt than Crystal Skull. But maybe a bit more of a drag getting through 2.5 hours. John Williams will help. 

 

I remember having super low expectations going into the Jurassic World sequels because reviews called them cinematic abominations, yet I found them perfectly entertaining dinosaur films. Similar deal with the Super Mario movie.

 

I'm finding all these conflicting descriptions confusing. Some say it's pointless (since when did Indy films need to have a point?), others say it's full of heart. Some say the action is breathless, others call it dull. Some say there's no characterisation, others say HF, PWB and MM chew the scenery. There is universal agreement that JW's score does the heavy lifting (which some criticised as overbearing... I'd call that a compliment by modern standards).

 

It makes me wonder how a film like TOD would be received if the exact same film were released today. Many of the criticisms I'm reading would apply equally to previous films.

[Cerebral Cortex 3,336]

If nothing else, I'm really happy that at least people seem to be able to HEAR the score pretty well in the film. I'm so glad it sounds like it is noticeable enough in the mix to comment on. I'm honestly surprised that it's getting mentioned as much as it is. Now my excitement for this experience has more or less been tempered to just getting a new Indy score from Williams, but that alone is such a surreal experience that I'm still overly net positive on this whole thing.

[Brónach 1,190]

3 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

It makes me wonder how a film like TOD would be received if the exact same film were released today. Many of the criticisms I'm reading would apply equally to previous films.

 

well..... it has issues.

[Chen G. 3,346]

8 hours ago, Romão said:

Although, we only got a score like Azkaban because it was made shortly after the first two movies.

 

Had the movie been released years later as a sort of "Legacy Sequel", no way would've they asked or allowed JW to score the movie the way he did

 

I mean, Gotterdamerung (and act three of Siegfried) were composed some 11 years after the rest of the Ring, and a lot of Wagnerians feel that the Ring is ultimately richer for it. And Parsifal is a prequel to Lohengrin some thirty years later...

[Nick1Ø66 3,856]

4 hours ago, crumbs said:

I'm finding all these conflicting descriptions confusing. Some say it's pointless (since when did Indy films need to have a point?), others say it's full of heart. Some say the action is breathless, others call it dull. Some say there's no characterisation, others say HF, PWB and MM chew the scenery. There is universal agreement that JW's score does the heavy lifting (which some criticised as overbearing... I'd call that a compliment by modern standards).

 

 

I hear you, and I'd never determine whether I was going to see a film based on critic's reviews alone.  

 

That said, personally speaking I've gotten pretty adept at finding out in general terms what I'm looking for in a movie by reading a broad sample of reviews, especially from critics I trust. I mostly ignore star ratings, and look for specific things I'm curious or concerned about in a particular film, and see if there's any critical consensus there. If enough critics I trust are saying the same thing about x movie, it's not necessarily determinative for me, but it will raise red flags. This has worked out pretty well for me.

 

Again, nothing the critics say will stop me from seeing a film I otherwise am going to see no matter what (like Indy 5), but reading enough reviews has helped me decide whether a film is worth a trip to the cinema or I can just catch it at home. 

 

 

[Brónach 1,190]

36 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

That said, personally speaking I've gotten pretty adept at finding out in general terms what I'm looking for in a movie by reading a broad sample of reviews, especially from critics I trust. I mostly ignore star ratings, and look for specific things I'm curious or concerned about in a particular film, and see if there's any critical consensus there. If enough critics I trust are saying the same thing about x movie, it's not necessarily determinative for me, but it will raise red flags. This has worked out pretty well for me.

 

yeah. for me, not only trusted critics who are well watched and well read and understand the things in practical terms (professional or not), but people actually into the sort of movie that something tries to be. it doesn't have to be people i agree with all the time.

[Alex 2,694]

I have had more success with IMDB scores. They tend to line up more with what I think.

[karelm 2,733]

Picture taken by a friend, but from Crystal Skull.  

[LB Makes Stuff 142]

I imagine Harrison was there for the sessions

[Brónach 1,190]

yeah he already seemed old enough by then

[Tom 3,997]

1 hour ago, Brónach said:

yeah he already seemed old enough by then

Probably tall enough too to be let in.  

 

A nice review with a score shoutout:

John Williams is nearly as pivotal to the franchise as Harrison Ford and contributes another rambunctious, busy score. There are several new melodies alongside returning favorites and the music has been mixed in at an appreciable level of volume so that it is not drowned by the sound effects.

 

https://screenanarchy.com/2023/05/cannes-review-indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destiny-indys-final-adventure.html

[Edmilson 5,663]

50 minutes ago, Tom said:

John Williams is nearly as pivotal to the franchise as Harrison Ford

That is correct, yeah.

[crumbs 13,540]

Say what you want about the film, it sounds like JW responded in the best way imaginable.

[Chen G. 3,346]

Hardly surprising. If Williams could wring an aces score out of something like The Rise of Skywalker...

[crumbs 13,540]

I don't remember this amount of glowing commentary for JW's score in TROS reviews.

 

In fact, I can't remember the last film which garnered so many positive comments about JW's score. It bodes well for whatever he's delivered, or maybe just a reflection of what happens when his scores are audible and not buried under SFX.

[mrbellamy 5,891]

I looked up our review collection threads for the SW sequels and there were a lot for TFA and TLJ

 

 

 

But The Rise of Skywalker one is a desert  wow

 

 

[Leitmotif 18]

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade is just 65 on Metascore, so the current 53 for the Dial of Destiny is not so bad  

Temple of Doom standing on 57, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull on 65

[JTW 696]

In my opinion DoD will be a weaker score than KotCS, but it’s still going to be great. 
My rankings of the Indy Scores:

4. Crystal Skull (10/8)

3. Temple of Doom (10/9)

2. Last Crusade (10/9.5)

1. Raiders (10/10)

[Chen G. 3,346]

20 minutes ago, Leitmotif said:

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade is just 65 on Metascore, so the current 53 for the Dial of Destiny is not so bad  

Temple of Doom standing on 57, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull on 65

 

I think in the case of some older movies, there are some elements to the sampling that skew the Rotten Tomato figures: you remember how, a while back, Rotten Tomatoes ran a piece about how Revenge of the Sith is actually the best-recieved Star Wars film?

[Brando 1,365]

28 minutes ago, JTW said:

 

4. Crystal Skull (10/8)

3. Temple of Doom (10/9)

2. Last Crusade (10/9.5)

1. Raiders (10/10)

Are several of these numbers flipped???

[Garrett 138]

From r/Indiana jones leaks:

“If I remeber correctly there are 2 travel map scenes. Of course with a beautiful John Williams score playing  ”

 

Posted by u/LunekJones