Composer Threads The Hans Zimmer Thead

[Edmilson 11,013]

If a composer wants to use another one to write additional cues ("additional" being an umbrella term that depending on the case may mean just a few smaller cues or the big important setpieces or everything in the between), so yeah, go ahead. I may admire more composers like Williams and Shore and, heck, even Bear McCreary, who scored SW, LOTR and TROP all by themselves, but still. Just please, make it clear which person wrote which cues. Not like those 90s/early 2000s Zimmer OSTs (The Rock, El Dorado, Batman Begins and TDK) where all of the tracks are credited to everyone.

 

Again I use the 2012 LLL Star Trek: The Motion Picture as a positive example. Clearly stating which cues were Goldsmith and which were Fred Steiner made me better appreciate the contributions of both composers. I admire Steiner for writing some good material (A Good Start) while I'm still relieved that Goldsmith, the man that got an Academy Award nomination and numerous fans because of that score, was still responsible for its best and most memorable moments (Main Title, Ilya's Theme, The Enterprise).

 

Once again, Zimmer is not the only culprit. Composers I love like Horner and Powell may or may not have been exploiting ghost writers for how many decades? And the very thought of some of their best cues being not written by them, despite everyone thinking it was, is just so disturbing to me.

 

The HZ forum is a nice resource, and I admire the work of the fanbase of trying to bring clarity to this subject matter. But still, the shadow of a doubt will always linger.

 

Is Henry Jackman actually a genius for having secretly written some of the best At World's End cues (Up is Down, One Day, etc)? Or did Zimmer wrote them and Jackman just made adjustments to fit changes in the final cut? Is Batu Sener a superb action composer that secretly wrote some of the most amazing Solo action cues? How much of them were written by John Powell? Did Powell just listened to what Sener wrote and went like

 

 

Is his only job to supervise, i.e. listen to what his ghostwriters are doing and offer insight? If so, does that mean I can be a Hollywood composer as successful as them? Because listen to music and tell if it's good or not is something I could do.

 

Sigh. It's so depressing this subject matter, I sometimes wish to forget all of this knowledge about ghostwriters working for my favorite composers. Or, even better, just say that "good music is good music, no matter who wrote it". But it matters for me. 

[Jurassic Shark 15,578]

9 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Again I use the 2012 LLL Star Trek: The Motion Picture as a positive example. Clearly stating which cues were Goldsmith and which were Fred Steiner made me better appreciate the contributions of both composers. I admire Steiner for writing some good material (A Good Start) while I'm still relieved that Goldsmith, the man that got an Academy Award nomination and numerous fans because of that score, was still responsible for its best and most memorable moments (Main Title, Ilya's Theme, The Enterprise).

 

Is Steiner credited in the new release?

[Trope 1,331]

8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Is Steiner credited in the new release?

I have the 2022 LLL edition of The Motion Picture and both Fred Steiner and Alexander Courage are credited in the booklet for their individual contributions (but not on the track listing on the case).

[GerateWohl 6,199]

6 hours ago, Edmilson said:

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Edmilson said:

If a composer wants to use another one to write additional cues ("additional" being an umbrella term that depending on the case may mean just a few smaller cues or the big important setpieces or everything in the between), so yeah, go ahead. I may admire more composers like Williams and Shore and, heck, even Bear McCreary, who scored SW, LOTR and TROP all by themselves, but still. Just please, make it clear which person wrote which cues. Not like those 90s/early 2000s Zimmer OSTs (The Rock, El Dorado, Batman Begins and TDK) where all of the tracks are credited to everyone.

 

Again I use the 2012 LLL Star Trek: The Motion Picture as a positive example. Clearly stating which cues were Goldsmith and which were Fred Steiner made me better appreciate the contributions of both composers. I admire Steiner for writing some good material (A Good Start) while I'm still relieved that Goldsmith, the man that got an Academy Award nomination and numerous fans because of that score, was still responsible for its best and most memorable moments (Main Title, Ilya's Theme, The Enterprise).

 

Once again, Zimmer is not the only culprit. Composers I love like Horner and Powell may or may not have been exploiting ghost writers for how many decades? And the very thought of some of their best cues being not written by them, despite everyone thinking it was, is just so disturbing to me.

 

The HZ forum is a nice resource, and I admire the work of the fanbase of trying to bring clarity to this subject matter. But still, the shadow of a doubt will always linger.

 

Is Henry Jackman actually a genius for having secretly written some of the best At World's End cues (Up is Down, One Day, etc)? Or did Zimmer wrote them and Jackman just made adjustments to fit changes in the final cut? Is Batu Sener a superb action composer that secretly wrote some of the most amazing Solo action cues? How much of them were written by John Powell? Did Powell just listened to what Sener wrote and went like

 

 

Is his only job to supervise, i.e. listen to what his ghostwriters are doing and offer insight? If so, does that mean I can be a Hollywood composer as successful as them? Because listen to music and tell if it's good or not is something I could do.

 

Sigh. It's so depressing this subject matter, I sometimes wish to forget all of this knowledge about ghostwriters working for my favorite composers. Or, even better, just say that "good music is good music, no matter who wrote it". But it matters for me. 

As I understand it, the question how much of the music, the arrangements and the orchestrations were done by the composers and how much was left to the orchestrators is almost as old as this musical genre itself and particularly a reason for the bad reputation of film music in classical music circles already in the 1940s. 

So, If we really aim for works of a singular composer we should probably switch the genre.

[Brónach 1,320]

i dislike ghostwriters. i don't dislike multiple cooks if the information is actually there, but it does make it annoying to classify albums in a hard drive or to fix their metadata.

 

now, to be fair, i really should post this in the John Powell/"John Powell" thread instead.

[Davis 3,953]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

1 hour ago, JTW said:

I was asking because I think, this is no secret at all.

There you go. Even worse then, if it’s an openly known thing. 
It’s unethical to take solo credit for something you didn’t create alone. 
And I couldn’t agree more with @Edmilson that if a score is co-composed by several authors, their exact contributions should be indicated specifically who wrote what cue, and all of the composers’ names should be in the main titles. 

But right now lots of people who appreciate certain composers don’t know that a lot of music those composers are known and celebrated for they didn’t write. 
 

[Edmilson 11,013]

Me to Hans Zimmer: "I want the truth!"

 

Zimmer:

[Davis 3,953]

51 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

But it matters for me. 

I absolutely get what you mean, my friend. It bothers me too and it matters to me too.
And I think it should matter to everyone who loves film music. 

[Naïve Old Fart 12,160]

15 minutes ago, Brónach said:

i dislike ghostwriters.

 

I don't like ghostwriters. They're coarse, and rough, and irritating, and they get everywhere. Not like John Williams. John Williams is soft, and smooth.

[Brónach 1,320]

exactly.

 

imagine how much cool stuff they would make over there in the USA if the corpos and studios cared about film music, and gave it proper time and money, and there were scores by one or two composers, perhaps learned in several kinds of music, with a distinct voice and greater artistic freedom.

[Davis 3,953]

22 minutes ago, Brónach said:

i don't dislike multiple cooks if the information is actually there

Yep. Just write “Music by Hans Zimmer, David Fleming, Andrew Kawczynski, Steve Mazzaro and Steven Doar” in the opening or end titles for DUNE and show in the CD booklet what cue was written by which composer and I’ll be completely fine with it. 

[Brónach 1,320]

7 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Oh, I think that they should be comic relief. They are ridiculous characters, in The Bible, and they are ridiculous characters in the film. They exist to illustrate the power of The Almighty, compared to their piddling little "gods" (yeah, right. No chance, mate).

"Playing With The Big Boys" is my favourite song, in PRINCE OF EGYPT. Martin and Short perform it, well. 

 

this rubs me the wrong way in the movie to be honest.

[GerateWohl 6,199]

By the way, I would understand the concerns better If we really spoke about outstanding music. But if I get it right, then we are currently discussing ghostwriting for this terrible lifeless modern blockbuster droning.

[enderdrag64 1,604]

1 hour ago, JTW said:

Yep. Just write “Music by Hans Zimmer, David Fleming, Andrew Kawczynski, Steve Mazzaro and Steven Doar” in the opening or end titles for DUNE and show in the CD booklet what cue was written by which composer and I’ll be completely fine with it. 

This was sort of done for Top Gun Maverick, although the people credited for that probably shouldn't have been, given that Lady Gaga had nothing to do with the score and Harold Faltermeyer should only really have been credited for writing the original score and themes that were quoted - and the additional composers were not actually credited like they should have been.

 

But the premise at least of crediting multiple people with Hans Zimmer has been done before

[Richard P 4,961]

Similarly I've always been bothered by Lisa Gerrard receiving cover credit for Gladiator when she's just a soloist, at the expense of Badelt and whoever else may have written actual score.

 

I know exactly why they do it - Gaga and Gerrard are mega-marketable names, so any excuse to put their name on the cover will be taken.

 

I'm not that against the committee method of scoring - sometimes schedule makes it unavoidable. However, I am against marketing shit dictating who gets credited for the music, rather than who actually wrote it.

 

Although interestingly this discussion is actually mixing two issues - uncredited (or subtly credited) additional composers, who as we've established recently almost every major composer uses, and Zimmer's 'blockbuster' sound.  If you're going to criticise Zimmer for the former, unfortunately you have to accuse almost everyone else of it too.

[Edmilson 11,013]

Just to be clear: I don't have a problem when the additional composers and orchestrators' role is just help the main composer to accomodate his work on the changing cuts of the film and contributing with small cues and adjustments that the credited composer didn't have time for. We all know Hollywood producers are insecure morons who keep changing the movie and not everyone is as patient as Williams or have as much time and resources as Shore.

 

As long as they're properly credited and paid and the final score is still mostly written by the main person (aside from small, less important cues), I can live with that.

 

What I utterly dislike is seeing huge, important parts of the score ghost written by people other than the credited composer. Examples: the Corellia Chase is Solo's first important action setpiece, but how much of it was scored by Powell and how much was by Sener?

 

I love the Toy Story movies and their Randy Newman scores, but I was totally disappointed when I heard rumors of TS3's most dramatic scene (when the toys are about to be fried) being scored by Don Davis and not Newman, apparently because Davis is much more experienced in big action scenes than RN.

 

And what about Carter Burwell, who wrote a brilliant bombastic orchestra and choir extravaganza for the final battle of Breaking Dawn: Part 2... Except he didn't and someone else was the actual responsible for scoring the climax of the entire saga?

 

Be clear. Give credit where credit is due. I'll admire you much more than If you just enjoy the results of someone else's work.

[Davis 3,953]

35 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

at the expense of Badelt and whoever else may have written actual score.

Gustav Holst wrote most of the “The Battle” cue.

[Naïve Old Fart 12,160]

20 minutes ago, JTW said:

Gustav Holst wrote most of the “The Battle” cue.

 

Now, that is true. The words "rip off" don't even begin to describe it.

We all know that Horner was fond of pilfering Prokofiev, but GLADIATOR takes the proverbial Chocolate Digestive.

[The Score Cleaner 8,542]

3 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

This was sort of done for Top Gun Maverick, although the people credited for that probably shouldn't have been, given that Lady Gaga had nothing to do with the score and Harold Faltermeyer should only really have been credited for writing the original score and themes that were quoted - and the additional composers were not actually credited like they should have been.

 

But the premise at least of crediting multiple people with Hans Zimmer has been done before

Fron what I understand a lot of people wrote stuff that ended up not being used.

6 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Goldsmith, was still responsible for its best and most memorable moments ( Ilia's Theme,).

 

 

Wasn't that arranged by Ian Fraser?

 

 

[Richard P 4,961]

4 hours ago, JTW said:

Gustav Holst wrote most of the “The Battle” cue.

 

Very heavily influenced yes, but every composer has plagiarised or had to deal with a temp track of something famous at some point. What actually happens is that you highlight the ones from composers you hate, and 'gloss over' the ones from your idols.

[Davis 3,953]

Just now, Richard Penna said:

What actually happens is that you highlight the ones from composers you hate, and 'gloss over' the ones from your idols.

Was John Williams sued by the Gustav Holst Foundation for copyright infringement too? 

[Richard P 4,961]

There happened to be a discussion here on that very subject back in 2006 and the consensus was nowhere near as clear cut against Zimmer as you might think. A mix of disagreements over the resemblance itself, and whether Holst gets copied by loads of composers.

[Jurassic Shark 15,578]

Actually, it was Holst who copied Hans.

[Davis 3,953]

Welcome to The Hans Zimmer Table Head Element.

[Edmilson 11,013]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Actually, it was Holst who copied Klaus Badelt.

Fixed.

[GerateWohl 6,199]

10 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Very heavily influenced yes, but every composer has plagiarised or had to deal with a temp track of something famous at some point. What actually happens is that you highlight the ones from composers you hate, and 'gloss over' the ones from your idols.

That is the comfort zone of film composers. If they get caught copying classical composers, they can always claim, that their primary goal must be to support the movie and not to create an original work of its own. If people find their work original, then even better.

But a composer of absolute music doesn't have that shell to hide.

 

[Naïve Old Fart 12,160]

15 hours ago, JTW said:

Was John Williams sued by the Gustav Holst Foundation for copyright infringement too? 

 

I very much doubt it.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Very heavily influenced yes, but every composer has plagiarised or had to deal with a temp track of something famous at some point. What actually happens is that you highlight the ones from composers you hate, and 'gloss over' the ones from your idols.

 

Why not do what Franklin J. Schaffner used to do?

[Davis 3,953]

14 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Actually, it was Holst who copied Hans.

That lousy copyist Holst can expect a copyright infringement lawsuit from the Hans Zimmer Foundation. 

[tomsmoviemadness 4,443]

"BBC sells legendary Maida Vale studios which played host to The Beatles and David Bowie to top movie composer Hans Zimmer for £10m"

 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12230511/BBC-sells-legendary-Maida-Vale-studios-played-host-Beatles-David-Bowie-10m.html

 

[Brónach 1,320]

On 18/06/2023 at 8:57 PM, Richard Penna said:

 

Very heavily influenced yes, but every composer has plagiarised or had to deal with a temp track of something famous at some point. What actually happens is that you highlight the ones from composers you hate, and 'gloss over' the ones from your idols.

 

i don't know who wrote "The Battle" but it *IS* a scene with a battle where roman armies win.

 

i know what you're thinking. "but Mars is also an agricultural god!" i mean, there's also wheat at the beginning and everything (i know, accidental, but still)

[Mephariel 596]

On 18/06/2023 at 7:17 AM, JTW said:

Yep. Just write “Music by Hans Zimmer, David Fleming, Andrew Kawczynski, Steve Mazzaro and Steven Doar” in the opening or end titles for DUNE and show in the CD booklet what cue was written by which composer and I’ll be completely fine with it. 

 

I am fine with this as well as long as every composer does it and not just Zimmer. In fact, when will Bear McCreary stop pretending he doesn't use ghostwriters? When was the last time he put anyone on the front cover? Zimmer credited numerous additional composers in the front cover over the years. Zimmer actually acknowledges that he uses assistants and talks about them in interviews. I remember two years ago, someone on this very board said that Giacchino and Desplat don't use assistants. I was incredulous. I hope now, he realized Giacchino just didn't credit them. 

[Jay 43,956]

McCreary totally talks about his additional music composers in interviews.

 

And all of Giacchino's additional music composers are credited in the end credits of the films / tv shows. His son even got back cover OST credit on both Apes scores.

 

But it wasn't always that way, like that Star Trek video game score Chad Seiter wrote that got credited to Giacchino. He must have a good agent. 

[thestat 496]

As long as this is being recognised by who wrote most of it

 

[Trope 1,331]

3 hours ago, thestat said:

As long as this is being recognised by who wrote most of it

 

Sounds a little Matrix-y to me. I wonder why...

 

Also, gotta love the Star Wars temp at 2:53!

[iamleyeti 116]

Wait. Did Don Davis wrote that?  Never knew!

[Edmilson 11,013]

My grandmother is a huge Tom Cruise fan, and today she was watching The Last Samurai, a movie that I forgot how great the Zimmer score is. It's a powerhouse filled with emotional themes and general sense of sadness and tragedy that is similar to his other masterpiece The Thin Red Line. Much like At World's End or WW1984, it shows that he can write genuinely touching, inspiring stuff when he wants.

 

Give me TLS or TTRL any day over the overbearing synths and oppressive sound design of stuff like Dune or Dunkirk.

[Mephariel 596]

5 hours ago, Edmilson said:

My grandmother is a huge Tom Cruise fan, and today she was watching The Last Samurai, a movie that I forgot how great the Zimmer score is. It's a powerhouse filled with emotional themes and general sense of sadness and tragedy that is similar to his other masterpiece The Thin Red Line. Much like At World's End or WW1984, it shows that he can write genuinely touching, inspiring stuff when he wants.

 

Give me TLS or TTRL any day over the overbearing synths and oppressive sound design of stuff like Dune or Dunkirk.

 

I get what you are saying, but I don't consider Dune and Dunkirk to be in the same category. I revisit Dune often, but never Dunkirk. Dune actually has themes and hits the some of the familiar Zimmer comfort zones (female vocals, electric cello, power notes/anthems). But yes, Dune doesn't touch the quality of scores like TLS or At World's End. 

[TolkienSS 502]

I found Dune to be overbearing and noisy.

[Edmilson 11,013]

I do admit I like this track from Dune though. It reminds me a bit of stuff like Gladiator or The DaVinci Code:

 

 

[Richard P 4,961]

There's some Am I Not Merciful? temping there. Also has a Da Vinci Code vibe for sure, but the whole cue structure, and particularly the woodwind/synth effect around 3:00 followed by the emotional strings is very Gladiatory. He does manage to give the cue a very otherwordly vibe though.

 

I doubt Dune or Nolan's scores are going to make any fans of Zimmer around here. AWE, TTRL and some of TLS are more accessible, plus TLR.

[Davis 3,953]

12 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

I found Dune to be overbearing and noisy.

That’s why it won the Oscar. Voters thought it was the best score of the year.

[Mephariel 596]

The most exciting thing about Dune is how Zimmer can expand on it imo. I felt like the first film was very much a slow burn and a lot of the sketchbook ideas didn't even make it to the album. The second film looks to be a lot more about action and more epic in scope, which should give the music more expansion. 

[DangerMotif 1,293]

Every massive Hollywood film has to be done with an RCP composer for some reason

https://twitter.com/creatorthefilm/status/1681093685054959617?s=46

[HunterTech 1,547]

12 minutes ago, DangerMotif said:

Every massive Hollywood film has to be done with an RCP composer for some reason

https://twitter.com/creatorthefilm/status/1681093685054959617?s=46

Way to underplay it by not saying it's fucking Hans Zimmer himself (though the lack of embed is to blame). That arguably makes it more interesting than if it actually was just one of the lackeys.

Bit of an unexpected pick, since I would've thought he'd have been too busy finishing up Dune to really give attention to another sci-fi thing. Which makes me think this is likely a vehicle for either Mazzaro or Fleming (maybe even Benyamin) to warrant having any involvement with this. Though if that is the case, at least I can hope he'll have more fun ideas for this, on account of not treating it like some life changing thing.

[Brónach 1,320]

4 hours ago, DangerMotif said:

Every massive Hollywood film has to be done with an RCP composer for some reason

https://twitter.com/creatorthefilm/status/1681093685054959617?s=46

 

...so who's composing this? maybe the guys from Prehistoric Planet?

[iamleyeti 116]

I am sure that Zimmer will do a proper score for this movie… but I was hoping to see Desplat returning for this. His score for Godzilla was so good :')

[Tydirium 1,487]

9 hours ago, DangerMotif said:

Every massive Hollywood film has to be done with an RCP composer for some reason

https://twitter.com/creatorthefilm/status/1681093685054959617?s=46

Wasn’t Giacchino attached to this? Odd that nobody seems to be mentioning him getting replaced.

[Jay 43,956]

Attached?  No, not in any official capacity that I saw.

 

He was listed on the wikipedia page, sure, but anybody can edit those

[Mephariel 596]

Zimmer is attached to two of my most anticipated sci-fi films this year. Dune and The Creator. Can't wait.

[Tydirium 1,487]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

Attached?  No, not in any official capacity that I saw.

 

He was listed on the wikipedia page, sure, but anybody can edit those

 

https://www.thewrap.com/the-creator-trailer-john-david-washington-evil-ai/

 

Quote

The new movie features many of Edwards’ key “Rogue One” collaborators, including producer Kiri Hart, composer Michael Giacchino and cinematographer Greig Fraser (who worked alongside Oren Soffer).