Dial of Destiny: Theme Transcriptions (Updated)

[Falstaft 2,014]

Not sure if this warrants its own thread or not, but I've done a first pass at transcriptions of the new themes from DoD. I don't know if we've come up with consensus labels for all of these, besides the obvious for Helena and Voller. Also have little confidence that the Archimedes theme is transcribed rhythmically 100% accurately, or the tertiary Nazi theme harmonically.

 

 

Helena (transcribed from arrangement that premiered last year):

 

 

 

 

Antiquity/Antithykera Mechanism (transcribed from "Prologue")

 

 

 

Antithykera Mechanism (transcribed from "Archimedes Tomb")

 

 

Antikythera Piano Figure (transcribed from "Battle of Syracuse")

 

 

 

 

 

 

Archimedes (Transcribed from "Prologue")

 

 

 

Nazis 0 "Voller" (transcribed from "Airport")

 

 

 

 Nazis 1 "Spirit" (transcribed from "Prologue")

 

 

 

Nazis 2 "Supremacy" - exotic and furtive (transcribed from "Prologue")

 

 

 

Nazis 3 "Might" -- chorale(transcribed from "Prologue")

 

 

 

Nazis 4 "Determination" -- Transcribed from "The Airport"

 

 

 

 

Syracuse -- Transcribed from "The Battle of Syracuse"

 

 

[Tydirium 1,090]

I was hoping someone would make a thread like this! As for the Archimedes rhythm, I actually hear the first note of the theme as beginning on the second eighth of the bar. Check out 4:45 and 4:51 in the “Prologue” and maybe you’ll see where I’m coming from. I personally think those hits in the rest of the orchestra make more sense as establishing downbeats, than as the last eighth of the previous bar (and this would also allow the third note to fall on big beat 2)… but of course I could be wrong. Anyways, thanks so much for doing this!

[filmmusic 1,680]

Thank you for this @Falstaft.

Concerning Helena's theme:

I hear the A' as the start of the theme proper (and the A as part of the introduction).

This was corroborated by the violin version, where the violin starts with the A' material.

I don't know how other people feel about this.

[Loert 2,414]

Cool! It's great to get these things down on paper.

 

I'm currently figuring out the harmonies in preparation for a piano arrangement of Helena's theme. Most of your labellings look correct to me, though I hear some things differently. For line 2, I hear something like:

 

 

So bar 2 I would say is Ab9 -> Em/G

And bar 4 I think is just Ab diminished -> D.

 

As for line 3 bar 4, is the 2nd beat F(b6)? (b6 as in Db?) I just hear F (or FMaj7 at most).

 

I also agree with @filmmusic that A is leading up to the main "first subject" which is A'.

 

(P.S. I just love the elusive, luscious harmonies in this theme...JW knocked it out of the park as far as I'm concerned)

 

[p0llux 379]

I transcribed a little bit of Helena's Theme, then I gave up. Had a hard time with the harmonies and chords. See my signature below. Hope that helps.

[TheUlyssesian 2,447]

This is what I got - 9 themes and motifs - maybe it'll help! 

 

 

There's yet more. This is a complex score guys - more complex than we initially thought.

 

@Falstaft can you add time stamps for us music illiterate folks so that we know which themes you are talking about  

[p0llux 379]

 

Uncertain about the key signatures or time signatures.

 

 

Seems like 6/8 works best for alot of these themes.

[Falstaft 2,014]

@Tydirium -- that's a great question about whether the Archimedes theme actually starts on the downbeat or not. I think it varies, but there aren't that many iterations to base a "definitive" version on, to my knowledge. The instance in the Prologue has that ticking eighth note pulse which helps with how long the notes last, but not necessarily metrically where they fall. It gets clarified, I think, once the strings take over.

 

@filmmusic -- I think you're right about where the most characteristic A component of the theme falls. There's quite a lot of subcomponents of Helena's Theme, used somewhat independently in the score, and they all warrant closer analysis.

 

@Loert -- I suspect you're right about a number of those chords, particularly the second one being Ab7 rather than C#dim7 as I have it (though I'd notate it as a G#7, considering its voice-leading behavior, essentially a harmonization of what's definitely a melodic D#, not Eb. 

 

@TheUlyssesian -- this is terrific. I'm adding hyperlinks to the specific moments in the relevant tracks. I suspect you're right about the "Dial" having another and rather specific bit of thematic material -- exactly what you isolate your post -- though it's more textural and harmonic, less of a melodic idea than what you call the Antiquity theme and I, perhaps prematurely, thought was the main Antikythera Mechanism motif. I think relistening to the usage of both in the film will clarify. As for main Voller/Nazi themes: here I think there really is one central tune that gets an unambiguous statement once or twice on album, while a lot of the other material is a clipped or diminuted (compressed rhythmic durations) variant, particularly the phrase ending 3-pitch tag (the Knights of Ren soundalike). Lots still to sort out; hoping to have many more transcriptions, film-timestamps, and such in the coming days...

[TheUlyssesian 2,447]

5 hours ago, Falstaft said:

@Tydirium -- that's a great question about whether the Archimedes theme actually starts on the downbeat or not. I think it varies, but there aren't that many iterations to base a "definitive" version on, to my knowledge. The instance in the Prologue has that ticking eighth note pulse which helps with how long the notes last, but not necessarily metrically where they fall. It gets clarified, I think, once the strings take over.

 

@filmmusic -- I think you're right about where the most characteristic A component of the theme falls. There's quite a lot of subcomponents of Helena's Theme, used somewhat independently in the score, and they all warrant closer analysis.

 

@Loert -- I suspect you're right about a number of those chords, particularly the second one being Ab7 rather than C#dim7 as I have it (though I'd notate it as a G#7, considering its voice-leading behavior, essentially a harmonization of what's definitely a melodic D#, not Eb. 

 

@TheUlyssesian -- this is terrific. I'm adding hyperlinks to the specific moments in the relevant tracks. I suspect you're right about the "Dial" having another and rather specific bit of thematic material -- exactly what you isolate your post -- though it's more textural and harmonic, less of a melodic idea than what you call the Antiquity theme and I, perhaps prematurely, thought was the main Antikythera Mechanism motif. I think relistening to the usage of both in the film will clarify. As for main Voller/Nazi themes: here I think there really is one central tune that gets an unambiguous statement once or twice on album, while a lot of the other material is a clipped or diminuted (compressed rhythmic durations) variant, particularly the phrase ending 3-pitch tag (the Knights of Ren soundalike). Lots still to sort out; hoping to have many more transcriptions, film-timestamps, and such in the coming days...

 

I am pretty sure the main Voller Theme is this one (The one you call the Knights of Ren like theme)

 

 

It is not nearly as present on album but in the film it plays nearly every single time Voller or his goons appear in the film. So I think this is definitely the main Voller Theme. I think it might have like over 20 appearances in the film.

 

What I call the Nazi Determination theme is the second most prevalent bad guy theme. I need to determine if it has any statement away from Voller. If it does, we should classify it as a Nazi theme. If it does not, we should classify it as the Secondary Voller Theme.

 

The other 2 Nazi themes - Nazi Might and Nazi Spirit each have appearances completely divorced from Voller. So I think these two are definitely broader Nazi themes. 

 

Nazi Might scores the title card of the film. And then appears again when a Nazi plane is revealed later in the film. It appears when the Nazis are in a position of power.

 

Nazi Spirit has a very dramatic appearance in the film when the Nazi general - who is the villain of the Prolog barges out to stop Indy. It also plays later in the film during the climax when the Nazi plane

Spoiler

crashes and all our main villains are killed.

 

What you call Bad Guys Secondary Motif  I haven't been able to place it yet. I need to yet determine what it exactly represents. Though I can assure you this is a Nazi motif too. It first appears completely divorced from Voller.

 

Remember Voller is a character in the prolog and his theme appears there - he's not the villain in the prolog.

 

The villain in the prolog are Nazi officers so most of the bad guy themes are Nazi themes that start in the prolog and then return later in the score.

[Courtney Sees Ghosts 247]

Can't wait to make suites for all these themes on YouTube channel. Gonna make finding them a lot easier.

[p0llux 379]

 

Maybe it's a 3/4 or 6/8 meter for this theme. I heard some low woodwinds or quiet horns or something pulsing in the background during the big string statement in the Prologue that helped me with this. So to be clear, this transcription is the string statement in the prologue. Hope this helps.

 

 

Uncertain with the 6/8 meter version.

 

[Falstaft 2,014]

@TheUlyssesian: You're quite right about the Dial having a major theme I didn't initially catch. Here's a transcription of its most developed, climactic statement at the end of "Archimedes Tomb." I have to say, as far as MacGuffin themes go, this isn't in the same league as the others from IJ. Essentially just a texture and harmonic process, very similar to stuff in Minority Report.

 

 

 

[TheUlyssesian 2,447]

11 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

@TheUlyssesian: You're quite right about the Dial having a major theme I didn't initially catch. Here's a transcription of its most developed, climactic statement at the end of "Archimedes Tomb." I have to say, as far as MacGuffin themes go, this isn't in the same league as the others from IJ. Essentially just a texture and harmonic process, very similar to stuff in Minority Report...

 

 

 

 

yep this is the main Dial of Destiny theme.

 

 plays i think about 8-9 times - essentially whenever the Dial appears on screen.

 

i think it's a solid theme - it sounds extremely sinister telling the audience that it is nefarious. 

 

it might not be melodically interesting but it is narratively very impactful.

[Falstaft 2,014]

29 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

i think it's a solid theme - it sounds extremely sinister telling the audience that it is nefarious. 

 

it might not be melodically interesting but it is narratively very impactful.

 

Fair enough! 

 

Another soundalike -- 

 

[BrotherSound 2,121]

7 hours ago, Falstaft said:

As for main Voller/Nazi themes: here I think there really is one central tune that gets an unambiguous statement once or twice on album, while a lot of the other material is a clipped or diminuted (compressed rhythmic durations) variant, particularly the phrase ending 3-pitch tag (the Knights of Ren soundalike)

Speaking of which, looks like that 3-note motif appears in 3M10 v1.1 Whip At A Gun Fight. Does anyone know if this cue was used in the film, or was it entirely replaced by music in Auction at Hotel L’Atlantique?

 

[Fabulin 3,469]

On 30/06/2023 at 8:50 PM, Falstaft said:

 

Antiquity/Antithykera Mechanism/Related MacGuffins (?) (transcribed from "Prologue")

 

 

 

love this one. Reminds me of:

 

[Falstaft 2,014]

1 hour ago, BrotherSound said:

Speaking of which, looks like that 3-note motif appears in 3M10 v1.1 Whip At A Gun Fight. Does anyone know if this cue was used in the film, or was it entirely replaced by music in Auction at Hotel L’Atlantique?

 

 

Ha! There it is. I'll check tomorrow if that snippet made it in film.

[TheUlyssesian 2,447]

I added more color and notes to each theme and have put them in 2 broad groups.

 

 

[Falstaft 2,014]

I updated the original post to include all of the themes identified so far by @TheUlyssesian -- new additions include Voller's motif as an independent theme, the Nazi Determination motif, the Antikythera piano figure, and the Syracuse battle pattern.

 

I'll be busy also updating my IJ thematic catalogue with more references and analytical stuff over the coming days, if folks are interested:  https://franklehman.com/indiana-jones-themes/

[TheUlyssesian 2,447]

1 hour ago, Falstaft said:

I updated the original post to include all of the themes identified so far by @TheUlyssesian -- new additions include Voller's motif as an independent theme, the Nazi Determination motif, the Antikythera piano figure, and the Syracuse battle pattern.

 

I'll be busy also updating my IJ thematic catalogue with more references and analytical stuff over the coming days, if folks are interested:  https://franklehman.com/indiana-jones-themes/

 

This is fantastic. Beginning to look at the work as a whole - is it fair to say that with the number of new ideas williams has created, this is one of the more complex/ambitious works in Indy and the most new ideas he has written for a film since Ep7/BFG.

 

Seems like he was inspired this time and provided a large number of new identities. 

 

We also have to take into consideration that just like Rey itself has 3-4 motifs within the theme, even Helena has several motifs within at.

 

Overall, we might be looking at over a dozen new ideas.

[Tom 4,179]

I think it helped that he first agreed to write themes and then decided to score the whole thing himself.  He probably wanted to give them a full compliment of themes with which to work.  

[Falstaft 2,014]

I've taken a stab at a more extended version of Voller's motif, as heard in "Voller Returns." As far as I know, this is the longest unfolding of his material in the score. It's a devil to get this metrically accurate, and I'd be especially curious if anyone hears its rhythmic structure differently.

 

Voller's Theme: Longer Form (transcribed from "Voller Returns")

 

[Tydirium 1,090]

Voller’s theme reminds me a lot of this (1:52-1:57):

 

 

[Ludwig 1,099]

1 hour ago, Falstaft said:

I've taken a stab at a more extended version of Voller's motif, as heard in "Voller Returns." As far as I know, this is the longest unfolding of his material in the score. It's a devil to get this metrically accurate, and I'd be especially curious if anyone hears its rhythmic structure differently.

 

 

I think it's especially intuitive to place the chromatic figure starting on a downbeat each time. I tried transcribing it as well, and found that my ear was also drawn to the soft timp hits as downbeats, so I added as another factor and came up with this. I think we only differ in the amount of time between phrases, which doesn't always sound exact anyway.

 

[Molly Weasley 100]

On 30/06/2023 at 3:39 PM, Loert said:

Cool! It's great to get these things down on paper.

 

I'm currently figuring out the harmonies in preparation for a piano arrangement of Helena's theme. Most of your labellings look correct to me, though I hear some things differently. For line 2, I hear something like:

 

 

So bar 2 I would say is Ab9 -> Em/G

And bar 4 I think is just Ab diminished -> D.

 

As for line 3 bar 4, is the 2nd beat F(b6)? (b6 as in Db?) I just hear F (or FMaj7 at most).

 

I also agree with @filmmusic that A is leading up to the main "first subject" which is A'.

 

(P.S. I just love the elusive, luscious harmonies in this theme...JW knocked it out of the park as far as I'm concerned)

 

I would be very interested in the piano arrangement when you're done! I can trade you an advanced Marion's Theme. 

[Falstaft 2,014]

5 hours ago, Ludwig said:

 

I think it's especially intuitive to place the chromatic figure starting on a downbeat each time. I tried transcribing it as well, and found that my ear was also drawn to the soft timp hits as downbeats, so I added as another factor and came up with this. I think we only differ in the amount of time between phrases, which doesn't always sound exact anyway.

 

 

I'm certain your ear is better than mine on this, @Ludwig. A lot of the time, I was taking wild guesses as to how long the pauses were between phrases. Keeping track of the timpani hits is a great idea. I'm curious, do you feel this makes up a grammatical theme in your sense? Discursive maybe? Most of the time, Voller just gets the first few notes, but here it's much more extended. 

[Ludwig 1,099]

On 03/07/2023 at 8:56 PM, Falstaft said:

I'm curious, do you feel this makes up a grammatical theme in your sense? Discursive maybe? Most of the time, Voller just gets the first few notes, but here it's much more extended. 

 

So, you mean is this a true long-lined theme in the manner of an 8-bar type of theme (grammatical) or something longer and more free-form? (Just translating my own obscure academic terms for fellow JW fans!) What's interesting is that I think pretty much every other statement of Voller's theme is just the opening idea, maybe repeated, so it seems like it's more a motif than a long-lined theme. But here, he stretched it out with more statements and they basically add up to a couple of AAB, or sentence, structures.

 

It kind of reminds me of how Kylo Ren's aggressive motif becomes something more substantial at the end of TLJ and it almost turns into a full 8 bars. But there, I think Williams writing that was probably related to Ren becoming the accepted leader of the First Order by Hux (though reluctantly). The character becomes more substantial and so does the theme. In DOD, it still feels like a motif even when it's arranged like this, and I think that's because 8-bar themes tend to have a kind of predictability to their phrasing, so you kind of know when each idea and phrase will come to an end. But this use of Voller's theme is so much the opposite! Slow tempo, changing meter, different phrase lengths. It just doesn't feel like a long-lined theme, more like a motif that's being manipulated, if that makes sense.

[p0llux 379]

 

Here's my attempt at this theme. As usual, I'm not a music theorist so I don't know the key or meter, but the general idea is here. I don't think the descending 16ths in bar 2 of the trombone part are 16th notes. They sound slightly slower to my ear. Also uncertain about the notes on the strings. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Edit: Updated trombone and 3/4 time.

[Tydirium 1,090]

That’s pretty close! I think the whole passage you transcribed could be in 3/4, though, rather than messing around with time signature changes. And you’re right; those notes which you have as 16ths, are actually eighth-note triplets.

 

EDIT: Check out the section starting at 2:58 in “Prologue,” and you’ll see what I mean about 3/4 with that theme; it shows how the note after the sixteenth is a downbeat. Also, for the purposes of your example, it’s worth noting that 3:12 of “Prologue” is almost identical to 3:20 of “Germany, 1944.” The main difference being that “Prologue” has two bars of 3/4 before the trumpet entrance, whereas “Germany, 1944” has two bars of 3/4 followed by what I assume is one bar of 4/4.

[p0llux 379]

@Tydirium Thanks. Pretty interesting how alot of these themes are 3/4 or 6/8. At least of the ones I've tried to transcribe. And yea, those trombone notes are 8th note trips, why didn't I think of that? I forgot off beat triplets exists sometimes. I've updated my post with these changes.

[Tydirium 1,090]

22 minutes ago, p0llux said:

@Tydirium Thanks. Pretty interesting how alot of these themes are 3/4 or 6/8. At least of the ones I've tried to transcribe. And yea, those trombone notes are 8th note trips, why didn't I think of that? I forgot off beat triplets exists sometimes. I've updated my post with these changes.

 

The changes look a lot better! The only little nitpick I’d mention is that it should technically be an eighth-note triplet rest in beat one of bar three; what you’ve got now is a standard eighth rest, meaning that the triplet will start a bit later than it should, and therefore the last note won’t land where it should. In other words, the last note shouldn’t be grouped as part of the triplet, but rather should be a standalone eighth landing on beat two. Not sure if I’m making sense(?) Sorry, I don’t mean to criticize, btw; just trying to help! And just out of curiosity, what are you using to do this? Sibelius, Finale, MuseScore?

[p0llux 379]

@TydiriumOh wow. Good catch. I'm pretty rusty right now. It's been years since I've had to notate music. I just use a free online notation website called Noteflight right now. I used Sibelius many years ago. Updated post yet again.

 

[MSM 116]

For whomever it might be of interest: my 2 cents on Helena’s Theme which I did back in September 2022, for my friend Ramon. Forgive the harmony mistakes and meter guesses…and probably the hemiole isn’t right either. @Falstaft yours looks great!

[MSM 116]

Btw somehow I expected (hoped?) JW would use ancient Greek scales for his mystery themes 😅 but the ones he wrote sound exotic enough already (mostly using Hungarian minor) especially combined w the orchestration (setar). Ancient Greek scales seem to be quite complex☹️ …

[DangerMotif 989]

Any chance someone made any Piano transcriptions of tracks from the score?

thanks