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Saving Episode III.


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I recently felt a disturbance in the force. I was able to trace the source and its from the fact that principle "photography", or should I say digatizing will be completed next month. That means that Lucas and company will have 20 months of post production, with some pickup shots next year. That scares the hell out of me, because it means that he will have spent more time on the special effects than he did the screenplay. Way more. Just like TPM, just like AOTC. Not at all like Star Wars, or Empire Strikes Back, or ROTJ.

So here are some of my idea's that Lucas would be wise to do to save Ep III.

1. Tell a good story.

2. Tell a good story.

3. Tell a good story.

4. Give your characters something to do.

5. Somehow get you actors to give good performances for at least once in this new trilogy. I've seen E. Mac act in other films, he needs to find himself at least once as OB1. I've seen Hayden do agnst in other films, and he can do better. Nat. P has never given a good performance so it might be hopeless here.

6. Don't waste our time an yours on meaningless characters that have been typed into a computer. Don't you know how much better that restaurant scene in AOTC would have been if you had used Ernest Borgnine instead of the ugly alien. Have real actors interact, whoa, what a concept.

7. I know you are going to fill the film with eye candy, but give it some taste. Really, the effects in AOTC were quite good, but kinda flat looking.

Find a way to really WOW us. Give us something really knew, not improved. Understand you have to compete against Indiana Jones, and Jurassic Park, and Harry Potter. HP's test of the Dragons has Oscar written all over it, so really WOW us when I say wow.

8. Since the film is called Star Wars, Episode III "Subtitle to be Inserted"

give us some Star Wars. AOTC had no real Star Wars, other than the lame rippoff of ESB when OB1 trailed the bounty hunter. Give us a space battle that might possible make us Star Trek fans forget the great space battles in DS9, which are so much better than any space battles in the new trilogy.

9. Stay True to the original Star Wars, still the 1st and Best of the series.

10. Kill off Padme, in a beautifully sad and emotional way,(unlike how you killed of Anakin's mom which ranks as one of the most lame reunion/death

scenes).

11. Kill off Mace Windu in a way that will please both Sam Jackson, and the audience.

12. Kill off Count Dooku in a way that will please the audience.

13. Kill off Anakin in a way the will have the audience in total rapture.

14. Give the birth of Darth Vader, a sense of ominence and danger.

15. Complete the circle, as Darth Vader says to OB1.

16. SEE RULES 1, 2, 3.

George, don't be stupid like Spielberg, and make a film to "please yourself", this time please your audience, something you have failed to do in the last two films. You can gain self gratification at a later date. This is your last chance. Give us a film to remember. Give John Williams something that will motivate him beyond the score by numbers routine.

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Yeah George, give us a huge epic space battle that makes us go WOW. I don't want you cluttering up the screen with beautiful, sexy, gorgeous Natalie Portman. I'm a ten year old boy, I don't wanna see a good-looking Giiirlyy, I wanna see a space battle with huge explosions n stuff!

Come on George, Wow me, WOW me.

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I just wrote a whole juicy post- which got erased.

The only thing that I feel like writing again is this-

7. I thought AoTC looked terrible. IMO not a single effect shot could possibly be mistaken for something real. So synthetic, so 5th elemant rip off. ANH has a warm feeling about it. ESB has a very dark and ominous feeling about it. RoTJ has a very green and energetic feel about it. AoTC has metalic grey feeling about it.

17. Fire youself, both as director and as writer, and hire someone like Laurence Kasdan. Or at least let him write it- as you are possibly the worst mainstreem director in history (Unless you count Veerhoven as mainstream)- and you need some real dialogue (IMO he got lucky with the original SW and American Graffiti) . NOTHING ABOUT SAND! honestly- I was hoping that was a bad print when he said '...and it gets everywhere'.

Kasdan could really have done a fantastic job- he is as good with characters as anyone working today, and I think could appritiate what Darth Vader means to everyone.

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I'm sorry guy's but I think Goerge is again choosing to flood us with loads and loads of special effects! It's ok to use special effects afterall it's a Star Wars movie but the huge amount Goerge used in the last two movies is rediculous and makes the movies very numb.

I'm afraid he is going to use the whole potential of the ILM studios. Which means a lot of special effects. Afterall Star Wars made ILM now what it is now.

About the characters I can surely hope he gives them more depths and more darkness, especially Anakin (when he is angry I think of a friend of mine who can act very very poorly). We have seen some bad casting in the last two movies (but that was a different discussion), so we can only hope that the last part in this trilogy will be the utmost best Lucas has ever made

So to quote JoeinAr:

1. Tell a good story.  

2. Tell a good story.  

3. Tell a good story.  

4. Give your characters something to do.

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1. Telling a good story means finding a good writer. But that's too late.

4. Indeed, don't let them just stand there reciting words from poorly written dialogue. But that's too late also.

5. It's the accent . Ewan speaks it in a forced manner. No fine performance can be expected from this. Not too late to change since most of the dialogue is recorded afterwards.

6. In fact, don't use any aliens at all. One of the reasons why TESB was good was because it didn't use too many aliens.

7. They always have to compete with themselves. How much good can that bring. Fire the whole ILM staff! It's getting boring. Get Douglas Trumbull, (and pay him well, very well) and we'll finally see something.

8. Hire the old staff to do their old magic with spacebattles again, they did the real eye candy stuff.

9. It's proof Lucas once had The Force. He started out as a filmmaker. Now he's a businessman first.

10. Padme doesn't get guidance. She's not to blame.

14. That's going to be tricky. And will only work for people who think Star Wars is still Star Wars and don't see anything wrong with it.

John doesn't get very inspirational material to work with. I think, all things considered, he's doing a better job than most of them. And he's is probably the only man alive that can pull it off.

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Alex Cremers

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I've identified the problems long ago:

1. Lucas is a...

a. genius STORYMAKER/STORYTELLER. The problem is that he seems to be a...

b. so-so screenwriter, a...

c. past-his-prime director, and a...

d. lousy editor.

He wrote the stories 1st 3 Star Wars and Indiana Jones films (with help granted... but he was the main man in all, don't take THAT away from him). The stories in the prequels were good, but executed terribly.

It's like a sports team with "on paper" talent and coaches who won it all years ago... but now they keep bungling everything during execution... problem is the Owner/General Manager/Head Coach doesn't want to bring in help where he needs it, like he had 20 years ago when the formula WORKED.

He had other people direct ESB and ROTJ (which are the best paced of the 5 so far, with the prequels being the DISTANT worst). He needs help on THOSE regards.

2. GIVE WILLIAMS THE FINAL CUT TO SCORE TO, NOT A ROUGH OR UNFINISHED CUT!!!! DO NOT EDIT/LOOP/TRACK MUSIC AROUND CRAPPILY EDITED SCENES! EDIT SCENES AROUND THE FLOW OF THE MUSIC AS MUCH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE, AND IF YOU CAN'T, THEN HIRE SOMEONE WHO CAN (OR ASK YOUR BUDDY STEVEN HOW HE DID IT)!

That wraps it up.

Actors-shmactors. Dialog-shmilaog.

It's the same caliber dialog and actors as the OT, just executed poorly from the top to the bottom. So we have some CG characters looking fake? We had some muppets looking fake too, but if everything else is good we'll buy into it!

Solve the above two problems, and we will have a GREAT EP:III.

If you don't, then you just killed your franchise, Mr. Lucas.

To most fans, it's on life support and this one will wake it from the coma or declare it brain-dead.

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Yeah George, give us a huge epic space battle that makes us go WOW. I don't want you cluttering up the screen with beautiful, sexy, gorgeous Natalie Portman. I'm a ten year old boy, I don't wanna see a good-looking Giiirlyy, I wanna see a space battle with huge explosions n stuff!  

Come on George, Wow me, WOW me.

oh Holiday, your posts are so..... fun.

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Chris, I don't think it will work, or rather, I don't believe Lucas knows what SW Fans have desired to see since RotJ. He will be shooting his own Star Wars to quench his own thirst, and he's bound to do it the way he wants it to be. In fact, Episodes IV, V and VI will one day be renamed to Episodes I, II and III, repudiating prequel episodes completely. Later on, Star Wars prequel episodes will have gotten renamed to something else, leaving out either "Star Wars" title or the "prequel" honor as undeserving of the Star Wars staple. I think they can't compare and I don't believe Episode III will succeed suturing prequel episodes with sequels. This suture is bound to go septic.

I hope I'm all mistaken, though. I want to be entertained, not disappointed.

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George, don't be stupid like Spielberg, and make a film to "please yourself", this time please your audience, something you have failed to do in the last two films.

For shame Joe! I had to read that statement twice to make sure you said "stupid" and "Spielberg" in the same sentence, especially when comparing him to Lucas! If you're referring to A.I., you just wait, some day you'll have a new dawning and you will learn to apprecite the film (like you're starting to appreciate Last Crusade's score). :sigh:

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If Lucas is doing the movies to satisfy his own need then let him do it. It's his movie, his universe, his creation. We shouldn't be at the top of his priority, let him make a film the way he sees fit. Our role is to judge the movie not make it, and if we are harsh then we are harsh, but it's his film. And NO ONE should tell him what to write, what to edit or how to make His movie.

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Steven, you caught my dig at A.I., you know I try to work them in when I can. What can I say as poor a job as Lucas has done on TPM and AOTC, he didn't fall to the level Spielberg did on A.I.

you just wait, some day you'll have a new dawning and you will learn to apprecite the film (like you're starting to appreciate Last Crusade's score).  

Yes I have a new appreciation of Last Crusade's score, not the film though, while it is a good film it is still the Least of the 3, and hopefully the 4.

As for A.I. you know that it is #1 on my list. My list of worst Steven Spielberg films, that is. I have forgiven Steven for A.I., thanks to MR, and especially Catch Me If You Can, but I will never forget.

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He had other people direct ESB and ROTJ (which are the best paced of the 5 so far, with the prequels being the DISTANT worst).

Don't get me started on how horribly paced Return of the Jedi is compared to Star Wars.

Neil

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Steven, you caught my dig at A.I., you know I try to work them in when I can.  What can I say as poor a job as Lucas has done on TPM and AOTC, he didn't fall to the level Spielberg did on A.I.

For what my personal opinion is worth, I could watch A.I. (which I love, actually) any day of the week over the new Star Wars films, sad to say. I want so bad to dig them as much as I do the OT, but every time I put in one of the two DVDs, I find myself getting annoyed and turning them off. Makes me feel guilty as a long-time (since '77) Star Wars fan.

A.I., on the other hand, was made as a labor of love in dedication to Kubrick for all us to enjoy. If Spielberg pleased himself on the film, you can't fault the guy, since he's been consistantly pleasing audiences throughout his career, and I'd rather see an artist takes chances than play it safe and by formula (something I hope Lucas will avoid in Episode III--the film needs to have teeth in a way even Empire didn't.).

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What I don't understand is where the audience who didn't like Phantom Menace, but went and saw Attack of the Clones, didn't like that one, but are still planning on seeing Episode III, but are already complaining on how bad it is going to be. I really don't understand this mentality. I liked the first Matrix film, I didn't like the second one, so have no desire to see the third. I won't be, some five years from now, still complaining and moaning how the Matrix franchise is ruined, how the Warchoski brothers need to hand over their movie idea to new directors and writers, how they need to listen to fans, how they will ruin any sequel that they ever conceive as long as they have anything to do with it, how they got lucky with their first movie and obviously have no talent... I don't see where this comes from? I loved the first two Godfather movies, didn't like the third one, but am not bitter about it. I don't have all this pent-up hostility towards Francis Ford Coppola that no matter how vocal I am about it, I can't just seem to let go of and move on. I just go and see movies that I think I will enjoy and avoid the ones I don't think I will enjoy.

And I also find it bizarre that people feel artists should be slaves to their audience. This sort of Annie Wilkes in Misery attitude where the artist should be tied down and write exactly what the audience wants them to write or suffer horrible physical pain. We should stand over the shoulders of painters and yell in their ears "Put more blue there!" "Paint a bird there!" "What in the hell do you think you are doing?" "You either paint the picture I want the way you want it, or you give your ideas and inspiration to other artists (who apparently can't think up things on their own) and let them do it, because they will do it better, I know this for a fact, I can see into the future, and I know, know in my heart and soul that any other artist will paint your ideas better than you can. No! I am not going to go bother somebody else, I am going to stand right here and keep screaming about your artwork until you do exactly what I want you to do, exactly how I want you to do it, because it is all about me not about you, it is my 2 hours and $7 not your three years and millions of dollars, my life, not yours."

Maybe somebody can explain this self-involved hostility to me, this bizarre sense of betrayal over a film. I think the Star Wars movies are simple fun movies, all of them have bad dialogue, bad acting, and stretches where there is no action... even Empire Strikes Back has the sophmoric written "love" scenes between Han and Leia, Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill are not acting wunderkinds, the whole middle of Empire drags with long dialogue scenes with a rubber puppet. the dumb scene inside of the asteroid slug, Yoda's painfully obvious and poorly written bits of wisdom... and then Return of the Jedi with the midgets in bear suits and the ridiculous yub nub dialogue, and also a horribly lengthy and talky middle section... These aren't classics of well written, well acted, well directed, well paced, well edited filmmaking that people seem to remember. These are Saturday Matinee style, fun children's movies. I think the difference is that people are remembering them through younger eyes, and when they re-watch them, they hear "dialogue" which brings fond memories of the past. But we are all older now. So very much older. And these suggestions of darker more violent movies, counting out death scenes that people are lusting for, and less jokes and fun and more violence are the wishes of adults, not the children who these movies are intended for.

Honestly, all this adult hatred for the films, and emotions that cannot be let go, and seeming obsession with how bad they are and what a failure the artist is, is only guaranteeing that they will be classics by our younger generation. If not already, since they all 5 appear in the top 20 grossing films of all time. Apparently, there are some people out there who are enjoying them.

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And these suggestions of darker more violent movies, counting out death scenes that people are lusting for, and less jokes and fun and more violence are the wishes of adults, not the children who these movies are intended for.

Seven Years, you made a lot of good (and passionately, sometimes humorously worded) points in your post, but the above passage is worth talking about: George Lucas himself has been hyping the final episode to be very, very dark, so if people are foaming at the mouth for a film not full of "yub nubs" and all that nonsense and it isn't delivered, in this case the artist is fully to blame (not that any adults should pout or throw tantrums about it). I think Lucas is as much a victim of his own self-generated hype as he is all the things he's not in control of (audience responses, over-zealous fans, etc.). Boy, I'd hate to be him, but perhaps he could make his film before he floods the press with quotes about what it's going to be like. He has a history of contradicting himself (which is fair, he's human), but too many fans take his word as Gospel and then when he doesn't deliver, the backlash is horrific. You'd think by now he'd learn not to promise a thing...

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In addition to Lucas's poor directing, the dialogue killed Episodes I and II. They were so sophomorish, too simplistic, too juvenille. That was the problem even with the original Star Wars, even when it was polished up by Gloria Katz and William Hyuck. TESB by far had the best of everything. Lawrence Kasdan did a tremendous job with the writing without Lucas's total involvement. But then ROTJ returned to some of the banal stuff that has made Eps. I & II a bit unbearable with Lucas throwing in his weight with the screenplay.

Why TESB succeeded so well was because Irving Kirschner was willing to push the limits and add in a lot of creative ideas that Lucas opposed until he found out those ideas worked after all. I guess Lucas no longer wanted his baby to be tampered with or deviated from his ideas, which was why he became greedy and took the helm of the new trilogy. And that is why so far, while they have been marginally entertaining, they do not hold a candle to the classic trilogy.

I am cautiously optimistic about Episode III being the "best" of the first three chapters. But Lucas is no Spielberg. He doesn't learn from his mistakes.

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The third one definitely will be the darkest, because we know that the bad guys come out on top.

It would be kind of funny if he somehow worked it out to be a happy ending, and the ewoks came out and sang their yub nub song at the end.

I just think that people expecting to see each and every character killed on screen in detail are going to be disappointed. In fact, Padme cannot die in the third one, since she will not die for a few years after it ends, since Leia has memories of being raised by her. I can't see there even being a death of Jar Jar scene. I am guessing we will see Dooku and Mace meet their end, and maybe a couple other Jedi. But I doubt we will actually bear witness to the extermination of all Jedi, including the young ones.

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Actually, I remember during Empire that there was a lot of friction between Kershner and Lucas, because Lucas pulled a Spielberg on Poltergeist and took control over a lot of the film, and Kershner was not given a lot of freedom like he had hoped.

Here is Irvin Kershner's complete credits:

SeaQuest DSV (1993) (TV)

Robocop 2 (1990)

Traveling Man (1989) (TV)

"Amazing Stories" (1985) TV Series (episode "Hell Toupee (1986)")

Never Say Never Again (1983)

Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980)

Eyes of Laura Mars (1978)

Raid on Entebbe (1977) (TV)

Return of a Man Called Horse, The (1976)

S*P*Y*S (1974)

Up the Sandbox (1972)

Loving (1970)

Flim-Flam Man, The (1967)

... aka One Born Every Minute (1967) (UK)

Fine Madness, A (1966)

Luck of Ginger Coffey, The (1964)

Face in the Rain (1963)

"Ben Casey" (1961) TV Series

"Cain's Hundred" (1961) TV Series

Hoodlum Priest (1961)

Young Captives, The (1959)

"Rebel, The" (1959) TV Series

"Naked City" (1958) TV Series

Stakeout on Dope Street (1958)

I really see no evidence here that it was Irvin Kershner who MADE Empire Strikes Back great. Never Say Never Again was hardly the best of the Bond films. In fact it is argued to be one of the worst.

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Seven Years,

The only thing that strikes me as amazing is that some people don't see any difference between the 5 movies. There saying that each movie is as good is the other. They are all equally good. Amazing! I say they're not. I still enjoy talking about Star Wars even though I didn't like 6, 1 and 2. I will probably always be a Star Wars fan even when my opinion about them is slightly negative. Does this makes me an angry person full of hatred?

I think (I know) a lot of fans (almost every fan, actually) of the first trilogy is going to see Episode 3 like they did with 1 and 2. That doesn't make them classics, Seven Years. The first one (A new Hope) is a classic (and that's about it I'm afraid) because it was almost unanimously loved by movie-goers and film critics all over the world. A classic is also responsible for renewing or changing the way films are resulting with lots of other movies trying to copy its look, feel, acting, message, etc. If a movie stands the test of time, if it can act as a role model, no matter how many years later, then we can speak of a "classic". Episodes 6,1 and 2 don't qualify.

Love and discuss the 5 Star Warses as much as you like but please don't tell me not to express my feelings.

------------

Alex Cremers

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What I don't understand is where the audience who didn't like Phantom Menace, but went and saw Attack of the Clones, didn't like that one, but are still planning on seeing Episode III, but are already complaining on how bad it is going to be.

It's like a train wreck. You want to look away, but you can't. You want to see more carnage.

OK, here's why the original trilogy has stood up for more than 25 years, while the prequel trilogy is becoming a joke: the music.

Yes, "Jedi" has some slow and uninteresting moments. But the music keeps it interesting and the flow depends on the tone.

As for "Star Wars" and "Empire," the stories are fantastic, but it's the music that drives the film, giving the slower moments heart and emotion.

Episodes I and II are like watching a snail walk across a room. It'll get there eventually, but man does it take forever to get there. And the music doesn't help throughout. Sure, there are wonderful musical moments in both films. But on the whole it's not as appealing. Does anyone listen to the music scored in Episode I after the landing on Coruscant, leading up to the departure about 20 minutes later? Boring stuff. Wallpaper.

I'm surprised that on this message board about the composer of these films, no one has given Williams the responsibility we have put on him in the previous five films. If, for example, the first shot of Darth Vader is to work, we need a musical statement like no other. If it's not scored, it would turn out pretty dull. Or when the twins are born. I'm hoping for a reprise of the "Brother and Sister" theme that is grand and promising of a bright future, despite the current circumstances. Or the most rousing version of "Duel of the Fates" during the anakin/Obi-wan battle.

The dialogue helps. Believe me, it does. The love theme playing during Padme's confession of love was beautiful, but it was drowned out by horrible writing.

Since there seems to be more time for Williams to compose music for a finished version, there should be little to no problem. And it seems like he and Lucas have been waiting for Episode II to give the saga its most thrilling score. We can only hope.

Jeff -- who went into Episodes I and II with the hope they would be excellent, and will go into Episode III the same way

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Seven Years,

Love and discuss the 5 Star Warses as much as you like but please don't tell me not to express my feelings.

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Alex Cremers

Goodness, I think you misinterpreted the meaning of my post on a couple points. 1) For gosh sake's never stop expressing your opinion, and I never meant to give you the impression to do otherwise. My original post was not about people not expressing their opinion nor was it directed at an individual poster... I just noticed lurking around these boards that for a John Williams fan site, there seemed to be a whole lot of anti-George Lucas posts that have been going on for a long time. And I was really just curious why there was so much anger and hatred in posts calling for people being fired, or insults directed at an individual... these aren't constructive posts but basically telling George Lucas to step down and let somebody else have control of his creative vision because he is talentless or has lost it, etc. Why not more constuctive criticism, why not point out what you don't like in a constructive way, why not list movies you like and just not list the new star wars films on them, why not spread joy not anger. I still know there are going to be angry feelings, but my surprise is that there are still angry feelings about Star Wars, so many years after the new films have come out, and they just don't stop. I don't see this with other films. Just these. 2) I also didn't mean to say that all Star Wars films are as good as one another. In fact I very definitely don't agree with that. I think that the first two are the better of the films, but again I also don't think they are some stellar Shakesperean case study on perfect film making either. They have their flaws as well. It just also surprises me that when people talk about the bad dialogue in the new films, they seem to infer that the older films had great dialogue. Which I would argue they don't. Perhaps the older films have better dialogue than the newer ones, perhaps, but they all suffer from emotionless obvious dialogue that ranges from bland to the ridiculous. But I also find it to be part of their charm. What is weird is all of a sudden these new films are the worst ever made... worse than Porky's 3 or Cheerleaders Go Calypso. I still think they are good films, not these dreadful nightmares people make them out to be. I mean people who "hate" them also mention they own them on DVD and still watch. It seems if you hate a movie, you would watch it once, not purchase it for multiple viewings. That doesn't make sense.

I guess I just didn't understand why so much energy was being spent over such a huge stretch of time to try and tear down something, convince people something is bad, insult somebody for making them... why not take another road and recommend a film you did like, or constructively suggest something that might have worked better... And I did not mean to upset you with my post, which it looks like I did. I was just trying to be helpful because I found I enjoy talking about the things I like more than I do talking about things I don't and putting down others.

Again, no attacks, and I hope my trying to be funny did not offend. I was trying to bring some lightness to yet another in a very long series of angry 'I hate George Lucas' threads. And no, he is not my brother.

P.S. I don't think George Lucas is a saint, I wish he would respect John Williams music more, and make a final final final cut before asking him to score it. I think the editing of the chase music from Attack of the Clones did not do justice to one of John Williams' best recent works. John Williams is a god, and George Lucas' failure to fully appreciate that prohibits me from ever sending him a Xmas card.

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I liked the first Matrix film, I didn't like the second one, so have no desire to see the third

I loved the first two Godfather movies, didn't like the third one, but am not bitter about it

Sevenyears, you are talking about films, that lack the fanatical following of Star Wars. And please don't tell me that Matrix has it, cause it doesn't. The Godfather films are revered as great, great film, but they don't have legions of fans, waiting for the next, maybe Star Wars doesn't either anymore. BTW this isn't a I hate George Lucas thread, this is a you can do better George thread.

I think the Star Wars movies are simple fun movies, all of them have bad dialogue, bad acting, and stretches where there is no action... even Empire Strikes Back has the sophmoric written "love" scenes between Han and Leia, Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill are not acting wunderkinds, the whole middle of Empire drags with long dialogue scenes with a rubber puppet. the dumb scene inside of the asteroid slug, Yoda's painfully obvious and poorly written bits of wisdom... and then Return of the Jedi with the midgets in bear suits and the ridiculous yub nub dialogue, and also a horribly lengthy and talky middle section... These aren't classics of well written, well acted, well directed, well paced, well edited filmmaking that people seem to remember. These are Saturday Matinee style, fun children's movies.  

These are popcorn films, but not necessarily children's film. Star Wars is not badly directed, badly paced, badly anything. You criticise Hamill and Fisher, yet they made two characters as real as any in the history of film, can Portman, Christianson, and McGregor say the same.

And these suggestions of darker more violent movies, counting out death scenes that people are lusting for, and less jokes and fun and more violence are the wishes of adults, not the children who these movies are intended for.  

where did you get this from. We know that Dooku must die, there can only be two, we know that the Jedi are wiped out, so we know Mace Windu must die, we know that from a certain point of view, that Anakin "dies". To ask for Padme to die, is to give her character that immortal quality it now lacks. These are kids films, these are films for the masses. Like Alex I want Episode III to work. Why post a thread about how to save it, if I didn't. I wanted TPM and AOTC to be successful.

As others have said, Lucas is saying this will be a dark film, not on the order of Pulp Fiction, but dark. ESB was dark, TOD was dark. Lucas does dark well.'

Actually, I remember during Empire that there was a lot of friction between Kershner and Lucas, because Lucas pulled a Spielberg on Poltergeist and took control over a lot of the film, and Kershner was not given a lot of freedom like he had hoped.  

See, I don't remember this at all. I remember Kershner recounting a wonderful experience on ESB, not at all like T.H. experience on Poltergiest.

I cannot reitterate once again these are not "childrens" films. And even if they are just children's films, they should not necessarily avoid the darkness, or the violence. Evil exist in all forms at all ages.

Lucas is of course free to make his film. It is his right, but he can do better and none of the suggestions I have put forth will compromise his vision, but only enhance it, within the framework of his Star Wars history.

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It's all on this to make or break the prequels, if Episode III ain't that great, the prequels will be a joke, but i believe that if EpIII is excellent, it will elevate the prequel trilogy as a whole.

Personally, I have HUGE hopes for this one, which is perhaps my own fault, but I have a feeling it'll be something amazing. I'm sure I will at LEAST like it, so that's alright I guess, but I want to love this movie. I want it to blow me away. I want to come away in tears, exhausted emotionally. I want the score to be frigging incredible, I want the story to be awesome, I want the dialogue to be worthwhile and smart, I want the look of the flick to be awesome, I want the action to be exciting and exhilarating, I just want this movie to be all it can be, dammit.

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SevenYears...

Go man, go!!!!!!

I've said the samethings as you and have almost got banned from the message board. I was almost labeled the antichrist. :sigh:

Keep it up!!!! I'm on your side!!!!

I think its great that most of the people who express their opinions about this subject have yet to create a universe of characters and stories that everyone else wants to run around in!!! Sure its easy to critisize from a distance. I just don't see them creating anything for anybody else to critisize. It's an easy target. You don't like it, you attack it. "I think this should happen..." Fine. Make it happen. Put it out there into the realm of public opinion and see how you fare. If it influences the culture for a generation or more, I'll eat my words.

Until then, keep up the opinions, the "I know better" or the " I think this should be different..."

Oh, and by the way, opinions are not creative.

Frosty

;)

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Lucas is of course free to make his film. It is his right' date=' but he can do better and none of the suggestions I have put forth will compromise his vision, but only enhance it, within the framework of his Star Wars history.[/quote']

I passed along your suggestions to George Lucas, and he just wrote me back and asked me to thank you, because eerily they were in direct contradiction for his original outline for Episode 3. George Lucas' original outline for Episode III follows:

1. I plan on telling a bad story.

2. A really bad story.

3. Just a dreadful horrible awful story.

4. I will give all the characters nothing to do.

5. I plan on continuing my goal of getting all the actors to give me horrible performances.

6. The bad performances I plan to make up for by wasting the audiences time with a lot of meaningless characters.

7. Then I plan on filling the film with special effects that aren?t really that impressive, so I can get the audience to sort of shrug and say ?eh?.

8. Since I will be calling the film Star Wars, I will continue my tradition of making sure that the new films do not have any stars or wars in them.

9. I plan on staying true to the George Foreman grill commercials, the best grill commercials out there, and steering clear of anything remotely related to the original Star Wars.

10. Fans will be pleased to learn that I plan to kill Padme off in a funny whacky way. During this scene, Jar Jar will step in icky icky doo.

11. However the death scene I have for Mace I specifically wrote to piss off the audience and especially that nogoodnik Samuel L. Jackson.

12. I plan on killing off Count Dooku in a long annoying sequence which will be interspliced with clips from old Facts of Life reruns. I envision that this sequence will have a lot of whiny noises and bells going off and will last a good forty five minutes so that I can be sure that it will not please anyone in the audience.

13. Anakin will be killed in a quick scene involving him accidentally stepping on a rake. This way audience will not know what the hell just happened.

14. When Natalie Portman gives birth, it will be quite dangerous and ominous? but when Darth Vader gives birth, I will cut to the scene from Caddyshack where Bill Murray finds a Baby Ruth at the bottom of the pool and eats it.

Thankfully your constructive suggestions have been taken to heart and he is currently scrapping his original plans. Here's hoping anyways.

(Don't you dare be sore by this, I am just having fun here. :sigh: I just seem to be making people angrier, which was my intent not to do. I respect your opinion that the new films are not as good as the originals, and I actually agree with some of your criticisms... and again my original long post was not in reaction to your post at all, but a vast series of anti-George Lucas posts. And I don't want to be the defender of George Lucas, I would take John Williams' side in a battle between the two, but I just don't like hearing somebody, anybody bashed over and over again. Excpet maybe Hitler and that Sadaam Hussein guy. Spread the love! Spread the happy! I will not post anymore in this thread, I think my backfiring plan of trying to lighten things up has run its course.)

I will close with... John Williams is the best thing about any of the Star Wars movies... and I honestly believe that if somebody else had composed the music, they wouldn't be half as good!!!

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Here's another one from the man himself:

Star Wars is a very difficult film to top.

Or something like that.

Here's another one from Alex Cremers :sigh: :

A classic is perhaps no more than a lucky shot. Take all the ingredients, put them together and maybe it tastes good.

----------------

Alex Cremers

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He had other people direct ESB and ROTJ (which are the best paced of the 5 so far, with the prequels being the DISTANT worst).

Don't get me started on how horribly paced Return of the Jedi is compared to Star Wars.

Neil

I won't disagree. I think they are both well-paced in comparison to the Prequels. Mmmm... on second thought, comparing them to prequels, I'll say "perfectly-paced".

The point was that others directed ESB & ROTJ, and the pacing was FAR superior to the prequels. Plus, although not all agree that Star Wars (ANH) is the best paced, I personally think all three of the OT have excellent pacing.

Lucas would have been better off to go BACK AND FORTH in history and tell more story. He's devoting thre movies to Anakin as a boy, Anakin as a teen, and Anakin as an adult. I would have liked to see something more than just that.

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My friend can't put the new Star Wars game "Knights Of The Old Republic" down. I also remember reading a review that pointed out that the game takes on the subjects that all the fans wanted (and what Lucas is NOT supplying) in the Prequels.

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Granted the Prequels have been getting steadily more disappointing, but I still greatly enjoyed both films... I MEAN movies. I like them better than most of the movies I have seen in the last 8 years or so even though they were disappointing.

The problem is, they could be SO much better and it looks like he is going to be making the same mistakes in E3 that he did in E1 and E2.

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Wow....two sides, and I can't disagree with either. Cool....

Joe, this was far and away your best post in years. I'm clipping and keeping it with my quotables. Seriously. Whether or not I agreed with everything you said (although, if y'wanna know, I did), the way you said it was too great. Especially points 1, 2, 3, and 16. :sigh:

One point stood out in particular, though:

6. Don't waste our time an yours on meaningless characters that have been typed into a computer. Don't you know how much better that restaurant scene in AOTC would have been if you had used Ernest Borgnine instead of the ugly alien. Have real actors interact, whoa, what a concept.

I thought that was Ernest Borgnine....oops. ;)

On the other hand:

It would be kind of funny if he somehow worked it out to be a happy ending, and the ewoks came out and sang their yub nub song at the end.

HAH....yes!!!

I don't know how long you've been lurking in the wings, SevenYears, but I'm glad you decided to speak up. Your writing style's great, and I can't deny you made some very good points in your thesis--and it was refreshing to see, as opposed to an "offended" party lashing back in anger, someone respond with wit and pinache equal to the opening remarks.

So here I am....agreeing with both of you. All I can say in answer to your question, Seven, is that frustration often breeds hyperbole. I don't think anyone hopes, expects, or believes any of these people will be fired. What would that solve? It would be infinitely better if they could, as people have said, learn from their mistakes and make a better film.

At the same time, I don't think anyone hopes, expects, or believes that will happen either. So we're left with venting, and no blame to anyone who feels the need to do so (especially if they're this clever in doing it).

What we really need is our own Chicken Soup book....

- Uni

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Seven, its funny what you wrote, I laughed all the way to the bank :sigh:

but George hasn't told a good story, and he hasn't gotten good performances from his actors, and that last point isn't necessarily his fault. They don't have to have good material to give good performances, see Star Drek Nemesis, and see Patrick Stewarts performance. He gives a great performance from a steaming pile of crap script.

Lucas is mainly guilty of giving us effects over story, something he didn't do in Star Wars or ESB(except ESB had no ending other than ROTJ).

joe, who would like to thank Neil for the last part.

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I love the ending of Empire Strikes Back. I simply have no idea why you keep saying that.

Sure... it's a "To Be Continued..." sort of feel, but it's fantastic nonetheless.

The finale is one of it's reasons for being so great... it leaves you anticipating (and back then, especially to a little kid in elementary school... the 3 year wait was OH so hard! ;)).

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I keep saying that because the 3 year wait was excruciating, and the resolution was not quite what I had hoped.

That's putting it mildly.

We've made a better ROTJ during those 3 years in our minds than George could ever make.

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Alex Cremers

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I keep saying that because the 3 year wait was excruciating, and the resolution was not quite what I had hoped.

That's putting it mildly.

We've made a better ROTJ during those 3 years in our minds than George could ever make.

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Alex Cremers

;):):) ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUS???!!!! 8O 8O 8O

OK, so ROTJ may not be as good overall as SW:ANH or ESB, but the Luke/Vader/Palpatine conflict was THE highlight of every Star Wars film to date. And to this day one of the best events I've ever witnessed in a movie.

Granted, the Ewoks took a notch off the film if you ask me, but come on now! LOL

-Chris, Who has seen what non-Lucas entities have made in novels, video games, and comic books... and has NOT been impressed...

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Wasn't it George Lucas that said:

In the end all we'll remember is the music.

Or something like that.

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Alex Cremers

Yes, Lucas has been contradicting himself ALOT of late.

In the prequel's DVD featurettes, he'll give Williams alot of "props" in the name of interviews and behind-the-scenes footage. He'll talk about the importance of the music and how in the end, after all the sound effects are added, all we'll be listening to is "the music". He'll say something along the lines of SFX without a story is nothing. Yet, he mangles the story for the sake of SFX, and then he'll mangle the music for absolutely no good reason whatsoever.

He's either being hypocritical, or ignoring his own advice.

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It's like a sports team with "on paper" talent and coaches who won it all years ago... but now they keep bungling everything during execution... problem is the Owner/General Manager/Head Coach doesn't want to bring in help where he needs it, like he had 20 years ago when the formula WORKED.

Sounds like the Toronto Maple Leafs... not that it had anything to do with the topic... ;)

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OK, so ROTJ may not be as good overall as SW:ANH or ESB, but the Luke/Vader/Palpatine conflict was THE highlight of every Star Wars film to date. And to this day one of the best events I've ever witnessed in a movie.

It was the only part that caught my attention.

By the way,

Palpatine...hahahaha...you mean the Emperor, right? Palpatine!!! What a typo! Hahahahaha!!!

----------------

Alex Cremers

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About 2 weeks ago I watched ROTJ. The last time I watched it was before TPM was released. You can see quite a bit of the flaws that plague the prequels appear.

With the exception of the Luke/Vader/Emperor conflict the film comes across a little on the dull side. In SW & TESB the humor was natural, in ROTJ we are subjected to more "forced" slapstick; burps, Ewoks getting shocked in the ass, Ewoks smacking themselves with weapons, torture is poked fun at.

The dialogue is ridiculous, Harrison Ford is obviously bored with the whole thing, Carrie Fisher is zonked on cocaine(OK that's not George's fault) Billy Dee Williams really has nothing to do, Yoda & Obi Wan are in the film for about a total of 6 mins. Luke & Leia's situation is handled poorly as is her love scenes with Han. Mon Mothma and some of the rebel leaders could have had larger roles, too many muppets at Jabba's palace, the song and dance number ugh....

What could have been a grand finale comes across as a major disappointment. Williams score is top notch, the visuals are great but unfortunatley those alone can't carry a picture.

The problem is Lucas and Gary Kurtz parted ways, Lucas hired a puppet director and he wanted to end it all on a happy note which is fine but at least have the guts to sacrafice some happiness.

As far as Vader turning good I have mixed feelings on that as well but perhaps the duel with his son on Cloud City changed Vader and he began to rethink his life, choices etc. But thanks to a poor effort in story telling we will never know. Maybe that was something that could have been addressed in ROTJ as well.

Well let's see SW & TESB were good, ROTJ was so-so.

TPM & AOTC were average so maybe this time around the third film will be good.

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The whole point of the star wars saga is the redemption of Anakin. IMHO, if Vader didn't turn good, almost all meaning would be extracted from the story.

I whole heartedly disagree. The redemption of Anakin/Vader is the start of the downfall of the Star Wars Saga. Evil on this scale deserves no redemption, only destruction.

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