Dinosaur Expansion from Intrada September 17th, 2024!

[LSH 1,098]

Spare us both the embarrassment.

[Holko 11,836]

On 11/10/2024 at 12:52 AM, HunterTech said:

Namely that one of the alts here (Enough For Everyone) is actually the full version of a cue that was shortened and added to the end of the proceeding track (Finding Water)

Looking into this a bit with the booklet's cue/take list, it seems this is not technically the case. Well I guess it was shortened, but not just by microediting, as I guess we'd assume from this wording.

 

The alternate is take 49, the film version is take 49 plus wild take 160 picking up at bar 17, which seems to be a clean take of the high strings at that part fading in, to give it a new longer "fake" opening (take 49 has the previous section's low brass and strings fading out even while the high strings are coming in, until the next section begins) and eliminate the opening which was presumably rejected.

 

Somewhat debatable how inclusionworthy this is, personally I'd have kept the full take 49 in the main program (will definitely put it there in my edit) and maybe included the one shortened with the wild take 160 as a film version bonus track. And yeah obviously name it in the main program if you're naming its alternate too, but it wouldn't be a Doug production without his weird/confusing naming conventions.

[Jurassic Shark 15,893]

13 hours ago, LSH said:

Spare us both the embarrassment.

 

Looks fine to me!

 

[Muad'Dib 2,005]

Something that I find super interesting is, hearing that demo of The Trek, how the overall accompainment is the same but the melody wasn't quite there yet. And to think that basically with the same elements JNH found a great and powerful melody is simply amazing.

 

Makes me think in POA with that theme that later became Window of the Past. It's like a little glimpse into the creative process.

[Cristian 68]

1 hour ago, Muad'Dib said:

Something that I find super interesting is, hearing that demo of The Trek, how the overall accompainment is the same but the melody wasn't quite there yet. And to think that basically with the same elements JNH found a great and powerful melody is simply amazing.

 

Makes me think in POA with that theme that later became Window of the Past. It's like a little glimpse into the creative process.

I love the alternate version of The Trek, I'm so glad they released it. 

Listening to this expanded release, nostalgia kicks in, Dinosaur is one of my first scores and one of the reason I love film music. This release is a great addition to any fan of this score. My favorite new released music include: End Credits (Version 1), The Trek (Alternate), Raptors / Aladar Meets The Herd, Aladar & Neera the second half.

[Holko 11,836]

Well this is a lovely little score that won't need much editing to get perfect!

 

Spreadsheet for comparison and notes, some naming choices are puzzling:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a5GGvHTo1ePkCNWbEiyX-W5LQAb4p2_CYo-9SBGS7CQ/edit?usp=sharing

[Holko 11,836]

So in the end all I did for a first pass at an edit was replace the main program Aladar Meets the Misfits and Enough for Everyone with their longer alternates, and made up my own Credits version. As a first step I replicated the craptors edit from the non-crap main program version and used AI separation to gradually dial the drums down near the end like in the credits. Then I decided to start with the Courtship version of version 2 to make it less redundant after Epilogue, but I still wanted to keep the V1/3 opening too with its unique intro. I also don't like the transitionary bit between Breakout and Raptors, it doesn't feel right, it should hold longer.

So what I did there was:

- used Breakout's original ending instead of letting it go to its credits ending replacement

- quickly transitioned that to the V1/3 opening before Comes with a Pool would start

- combined the first and second main theme in it into one to shorten it and still remove some redundancy

- used The Egg Travels' ending to give it a clean ending

- then started the raptors edit + rest of the credits when it felt right. Used V1/2's ending, not a fan of the horn coming back for the end in V3.

 

I also changed some track titles back to the OST ones where I preferred them. And used @crumbs' cover of course.

[Jay 44,713]

This has been nominated for Best Archival Release at this year's IFMCA Awards

[Brando 2,703]

I can't remember if this was discussed already, but is there anything in the OST portion that's not in the alternates section?

[crumbs 15,853]

I wonder if we'll ever hear back from Roger about that missing track that was in the session leak. He said he would ask JNH about it.

[Holko 11,836]

1 hour ago, Brando said:

I can't remember if this was discussed already, but is there anything in the OST portion that's not in the alternates section?

 

On 26/10/2024 at 1:53 PM, Holko said:

 

Spreadsheet for comparison and notes, some naming choices are puzzling:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a5GGvHTo1ePkCNWbEiyX-W5LQAb4p2_CYo-9SBGS7CQ/edit?usp=sharing

^

[A. A. Ron 2,408]

25 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I wonder if we'll ever hear back from Roger about that missing track that was in the session leak. He said he would ask JNH about it.

 

Do you really think Roger had any intention of reaching out to Howard about this? Because I think he just said that to shut up his customers who he sees as spoiled and entitled. Call me uncharitable, but that's my read on him.

[Stéphane Humez 967]

10 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

 

Do you really think Roger had any intention of reaching out to Howard about this? Because I think he just said that to shut up his customers who he sees as spoiled and entitled. Call me uncharitable, but that's my read on him.

I find it harsh on Roger. It's not my experience working with him at all. 

The thing is, you need to realize he's not the album producers, artistically he gives the key to people (like me with Hans) to handle that. And Dinosaur, the album was handled & produced by Douglass Fake, who's not among us to "defend" his album anymore. So what's Roger gonna do anyway, through the mastering engineer under the bus ?

And yes, there will always be complaints about everything on albums, that's life. I can understand Roger or MV have become quite cynical about such reactions... (I'm not excusing MAJOR problems on albums, but errors do happen. There's an upcoming album I probably listened 30 times full within a month to make sure everything is perfect and I'll still be anxious on release day that I didn't miss anything... ).

[scallenger 657]

I just don't get the hostility I have always seen from that label when pointing out issues or questions that have legit evidence to back them up, such as the case here for the missing cue from old sessions. Is it wrong for us to inquire why something was left off, purposely or not? We just want to know, especially when some of us are still interested in purchasing it.

[Stéphane Humez 967]

There's issues & issues... I see many complaints that are not valid as well. But I'm with you, I won't hide if I have to explain something on an album I produce.

The problem, as I said, is the person who produced Dinosaur simply cannot answer...

[HunterTech 1,582]

Except for when an answer was given that didn't fully convince everyone.

 

Though we already caused enough trouble last time for us to go over this again.

[Evanus 422]

Yeah, he was being pretty dismissive. Doesn't help that the facebook group seems to be filled with bootlickers, defending anything they'll do. I get that it can be tiring having to deal with questions or criticism constantly, but that was not the way to deal with it. These issues could've easily been avoided to begin with. Doesn't seem like the best approach, especially for such a niche market...

[Jurassic Shark 15,893]

3 hours ago, Stéphane Humez said:

So what's Roger gonna do anyway, through the mastering engineer under the bus ?

 

Acknowledge the mistake, even if they won't correct it nor issue replacement discs. 

[Luke Skywalker 2,289]

One of the archival releases purposes is deeming illegal bootlegs obsolete, or at least that is what mike mattessino tries to do. 
 

so inquiring why a booleg cue is not on an expanded set it legit i think. Mike even goes the way of including takes not just full on alternates

[A. A. Ron 2,408]

7 hours ago, Stéphane Humez said:

There's issues & issues... I see many complaints that are not valid as well. But I'm with you, I won't hide if I have to explain something on an album I produce.

The problem, as I said, is the person who produced Dinosaur simply cannot answer...

Some producers like our beloved Mr. Matessino have proven themselves capable of delivering both a high quality product and a high level of transparency when the occasional issue arises. Other producers however, seem to drop the ball on a semi regular basis and or choose to behave in a less than courteous way with their customers. Roger may be a great guy to work with. I don't know. I only know how he interacts with us plebs and it's not always a negative experience, but sometimes it is.

[Trope 1,360]

9 hours ago, Stéphane Humez said:

There's an upcoming album I probably listened 30 times full within a month to make sure everything is perfect and I'll still be anxious on release day that I didn't miss anything... ).

Now this has me excited! 

 

30th anniversary Crimson Tide or Beyond Rangoon?

 

25th anniversary Gladiator or The Road to El Dorado?

 

20th anniversary Batman Begins?

 

Sorry for the speculation. I think I've become obsessed with anniversary milestones due to the LLL Bond releases.

[A. A. Ron 2,408]

El Dorado would be awesome! Or Prince of Egypt for that matter.

[Bespin Copilot 10,288]

Can you resume the problems related to this expansion, do I have to wait before ordering it?

[Brando 2,703]

1 hour ago, Bespin Copilot said:

Can you resume the problems related to this expansion, do I have to wait before ordering it?

For Dinosaur? There’s a missing track that is available on the bootleg but it’s also not in the movie, and the End Credits has some weird stuff going on with the drums when the raptor chase music is reprised. The original discussion about this seems to be deleted here and was asked in the Intrada FB group.

[Slitherjump 106]

1 hour ago, Brando said:

The original discussion about this seems to be deleted here and was asked in the Intrada FB group.

It wasn't deleted, just moved it to a separate thread and locked it iirc due to users being really toxic to a member. Tbh I'm not even sure if Jay even wants us to bring it up again due to how this went. That being said I recall the fb texts in question were fine. I don't recall anyone being hostile there.

 

 

[Holko 11,836]

8 minutes ago, Slitherjump said:

That being said I recall the fb texts in question were fine. I don't recall anyone being hostile there.

They certainly took it as hostile nevertheless, as usual.

[Slitherjump 106]

11 minutes ago, Holko said:

They certainly took it as hostile nevertheless, as usual.

They did? I'll have to look at screenshots again

 

 

Just looked though it now, I think the explanation for the unused cue is pretty reasonable if, it's just his very first sentence that's a bit bizarre and needlessly judgmental.  

 

He did not say anything like that with me, when I brought what I thought was an issue with the Herrmann  re-recording when the intrada forum was still a thing

[Holko 11,836]

Ah yes, the phasing they're still denying in the award winning release

Or did they eventually get to step 2, "it was meant to sound like that"?

[Slitherjump 106]

23 minutes ago, Holko said:

Ah yes, the phasing they're still denying in the award winning release

Or did they eventually get to step 2, "it was meant to sound like that"?

It was the reverse and it’s worth mentioning they said Chris Malone took a look at it himself and couldn't find any phasing issue which is what made them drop the matter

[crumbs 15,853]

2 hours ago, Slitherjump said:

It was the reverse and it’s worth mentioning they said Chris Malone took a look at it himself and couldn't find any phasing issue which is what made them drop the matter

 

I mean, that just makes no sense. I cannot imagine Chris Malone didn't hear the issue, it's distractingly obvious.

[Jurassic Shark 15,893]

He probably stretched the truth a little bit, as I guess Malone was involved during the production. 

[Stéphane Humez 967]

19 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

One of the archival releases purposes is deeming illegal bootlegs obsolete, or at least that is what mike mattessino tries to do. 
 

so inquiring why a booleg cue is not on an expanded set it legit i think. Mike even goes the way of including takes not just full on alternates

Yeah but it's not always that simple.

I'm all for including all that's available.

 

But I give you an example, there's a HZ score I LOVE and I really want to release (and I'm sure everyone will want it to be released). It probably won't happen before a few years unfortunately.

The thing is, there is a TON of material for that score. Like several cues have 3 or 4 alternates. By alternate I mean sometimes just a slightly different set of percussions / programming, or the mix of an instrument is slightly different. It's like every day the cue was rejected and remixed until approved.

I compiled something as a test, initially it was 4 CDs, to the point there's almost more alternates than the actual score ! But seriously it makes no sense, it's unlistenable. And even if Hans lets me decide, he would probably look at the tracklist, raise an eyebrow and tell me "are you sure ? "...

So I cut down about 40 min of very repetitive material, it makes a much better 3 CD set. I know perfectly if I'll actually do that, a firestorm will rain down upon me because "a bootleg has 12 secs mixed differently on that cue that's not included in the release !!!!!". 

[Richard P 5,060]

I think a link is being made between leaks/boots (particularly more comprehensive ones) and an official expansion that just isn't there, or at least can't be compared in terms of their content.

 

If you're looking for literally every idea and variation to be included in a release, you're basically asking for the recording sessions to be released, which in many cases is an unlistenable mess. I don't think this is compatible with the expansion mindset where producers have to make some decisions about which variations are interesting and which are not.

 

Are there some here who genuinely want a box set of 20 CDs containing every cue, every take, every insert - literally every audio file recorded for Star Wars? I won't be obtuse - of course there are. But I'll bet most want a seasoned producer to tidy it up and make an intended score with the most notable variations. That means losing some material.

 

In this case, a brief cue that's clearly a demo and wasn't in the film - the simplest explanation is it just wasn't in the proper recorded sessions. Given the lack of that supposed Egg Travels demo, perhaps JNH didn't go into his archives for some reason... maybe those demos don't even exist any more.

[Holko 11,836]

13 minutes ago, Richard P said:

I think a link is being made between leaks/boots (particularly more comprehensive ones) and an official expansion that just isn't there, or at least can't be compared in terms of their content.

Mike has confirmed multiple times that when there was space for it he included the "wrong" takes as alternates just to make the release as comprehensive as possible so no one can say "I'll keep the boot too and this previous bad edition too because they have unique stuff". For example ST:TMP and Far and Away I think.

[Richard P 5,060]

Sure, a lot of the time there's space for stuff like that.

 

In the case of Sleepy Hollow, had the main program been assembled with actual attention to the film takes (not paperwork), you'd be left with a lot of extremely similar takes, some of which I still have no idea how they differ.

 

Just because it's different in some manner, do we need it? I can't get into the mindset that if it exists, we must have it. I think the final complete film takes are the only things that need to be there - with everything else being up for indvidual merit. In many cases that still results in a disc of alternates because it's great to have stuff like that, but we don't need everything. I don't think a presence on a boot necessarily means it needs to be on a release.

[Holko 11,836]

Yes, I'm on the same page, I don't care at all about alternate takes that are not actually any different unless maybe in the rare case where there's some performance error/weakness in the film/OST one that can be fixed with it, or ones that are only different in that they're missing these 2 bars here, or ones that are only different in that this instrument line that is the main interesting part was removed from it. Or ones where the only difference is the final 20 seconds but for some reason the whole 5 minute cue is included 3 times to get all 2.5 versions of those 20 seconds. Get the actually different and interesting ones, combine them to get the most interesting parts, include only segments/inserts if needed.

[Edmilson 11,393]

5 hours ago, Stéphane Humez said:

But I give you an example, there's a HZ score I LOVE and I really want to release (and I'm sure everyone will want it to be released). It probably won't happen before a few years unfortunately.

Pirates? Gladiator? Pearl Harbor? King Arthur? The boot for the latter have a ton of alternates.

[Stark 834]

The description of the mixing made me think of Black Hawk Down.

[Brando 2,703]

23 hours ago, Slitherjump said:

It wasn't deleted, just moved it to a separate thread and locked it iirc due to users being really toxic to a member. Tbh I'm not even sure if Jay even wants us to bring it up again due to how this went. That being said I recall the fb texts in question were fine. I don't recall anyone being hostile there.

 

 

I forgot it was moved to a separate thread. I don’t remember posts here but the ones on FB I remember more from both sides.

[Brando 2,703]

@HolkoI was just going thru your spreadsheet and I'm not sure if I'm reading this right-"1:14-3:07 is also used shortened with badly duplicated percussion in 3:27-4:48 of D2T1/D2T6 and 3:23-4:45 of D2T5". Is the Raptors portion in the End Credits a new recording or is it taken from the actual Raptors cue? I just had both tracks up in audacity and sliding them around, they appeared to phase, but I wanted to ask here. There's definitely some editing of the Raptors cue if thats the case but if it is the the End Credits can be fixed.

[Holko 11,836]

Yes, the Credits use a shortened edit of the same Raptors recording (plus the duplicated percussion)

[Brando 2,703]

10 hours ago, Holko said:

Yes, the Credits use a shortened edit of the same Raptors recording (plus the duplicated percussion)

Awesome! I was worried it was different and couldn’t be fixed without a lot of work but doing a little bit of editing isn’t too bad, thanks!

[Kasey Kockroach 2,612]

I like how credits opener, but otherwise the complete score has a lot of redundancies. 

[Brando 2,703]

This is an absolute crime, like why does this edit exist???

[Holko 11,836]

Stupid composers gonna stupid OST

 

There's not even any performance problem or whatever that he needed to cover up with this

[FBC Director 10,559]

What's wrong with OSTs?

[Brando 2,703]

11 hours ago, Lady Dimitrescu said:

What's wrong with OSTs?

That edit is awful 

[Jay 44,713]

Holy crap this is already going OOP after only 13 months!  Less than 275 copies in stock!

 

https://store.intrada.com/s.nl/sc.16/category.66697/.f

[Jay 44,713]

Less than 150 now

 

https://store.intrada.com/s.nl/sc.16/category.66697/.f