Conrad Pope on The Phantom Menace's post-production score editing

[Erik Woods 611]

I didn’t know where to put this so please feel free to put this in its proper place.

 

Anyway, I thought this might interest some here. Conrad Pope talked about the music editing in TPM when replying to the following question on the Conrad Pope Orchestration Facebook group.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/eC1WfYvDdkGxLFNt/?

 

Question: I remember a Youtube video (now unfindable, apparently) showing all the music edits made to the final reel of The Phantom Menace.  It was quite the patchwork.  It may be anecdotal or speculative, but the general vibe seemed to be that Williams was unhappy with how the score was edited, as Lucas continued picture edits well past the main and pickup session dates.  Conrad, do you remember anything like this?

 

Dear Brian: 

Yes, I do remember that there were a number of edits after the music had been “finalize”. 

 

What I was told by “secondary sources” was a tale that went something like this:

 

Without naming names, during scoring, a friend of Lucas’s who was attending the recording session, suggested that he re-cut the film so that the cuts between the various arenas of conflict would become faster and drive toward the “ simultaneous climax “ of all the story lines (at least, in a cinematic sense-  a la  Griffith’s “Intolerance “.)

From what I was told, as JW was obligated to another project, he was unavailable to do a “re-write” — and, I’m certain, he knew this was more an “editorial” fix rather than a “ completely new blank page solution”. So,  the “conforming “ of the score to the new, inspired cut fell to John’s long time, dear friend and treasured colleague : Kenny Wannberg. 

Whether or not John Williams was happy or not, I have no idea. All I know is that everything seems to have worked out to the satisfaction of the filmmakers and the audience- in this business, that’s a success. 

Make no mistake: that success was and is grounded in the strength of the music, however sliced and diced it was; ALL the ideas are strong and  they managed to remain effective after all the re-editing- guided and informed by Wannberg’s comprehensive and intimate knowledge of BOTH the score and the film.

John and Kenny’s professional “marriages” was one of the best in the business of big talents and bigger egos. To resonate and vibe musically, dramatically, artistically, professionally AND personally with a fellow composer/filmmaker—- that’s a great bond.

Composers today should find their “ music editor “ - a colleague with whom they would trust revealing themselves to.  

Over the course of a project, they will be your advocate to the director, the producers and- most importantly- the film’s sound mixer ( a mix can be a negotiation- and the composer can’t always be in attendance to champion the score).

 

Every Don needs a Sancho. 

 

So, Brian: That’s what I know from my “second hand” hearsay.

In any case, the further we get into Star Wars with all these sequels and “inspired by” spin offs, the less insipid Mr Binks appears in the overall trajectory of the SW universe and the more inspired the Prequels seem contextually.

 

In any case, without John Williams there isn’t a “Star Wars”- only space.

[Richard P 4,245]

I think it's probably good not to know whether Williams was happy with how a particular project or scene ended up. We (royal 'we') all put a lot of value in the composer's investment on a project (i.e. someone being unhappy if they think Williams' time is being wasted on an inferior project) so if it turned out that a piece of score that we all hold dear, Williams actually didn't like for whatever reason, where does that put fan opinions on that piece? After all 'approved by John Williams' are probably the most sought-after words on a release, strongly suggesting that fans don't want music that he didn't approve of.

[Holko 10,354]

This is not about him liking his own music or not, but about the big mess they made of it after the fact for the end of TPM.

[Richard P 4,245]

Given the mention of 'the general vibe seemed to be that Williams was unhappy with how the score was edited' I'd say it was a fair part of the issue.

 

But yes, the reasoning behind how it happened is the more interesting part of it.

[Edmilson 9,065]

Honestly, I think this edits (on the movie, not to Williams' music) were ultimately positive. I like how the climax of TPM goes back and forth between the various focuses of battle, all making the conflict "faster and driving toward the simultaneous climax to all storylines" like Pope said.

 

Would it be ideal if Williams had the time (and energy) to rewrite his cues so that they'd fit the new cut? Sure. But either way the music still supports the picture really well.

[Smeltington 1,595]

Thanks for sharing, it's good to read Conrad's insights.

 

I'm sure it's safe to say Williams would have been more satisfied with his music appearing as he intended. And I think it's also safe to say he's a professional and has been dealing with these issues for much of his career, and is able to accept the situation and move on. He probably never saw the final product more than about one time max, though, and was already on to other projects. So we can wonder HOW annoyed he was at the editing, but it's not a big mystery how this would feel for a composer. Ironically he sliced and diced his own music plenty for the OST as well. C&C is clearly not sacrosanct for him.

 

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

I think it's probably good not to know whether Williams was happy with how a particular project or scene ended up.

 

Agree, it's nice that he's so gracious and doesn't vent these things, other than an occasional offhand remark. We all admire his perceived humility, and why not leave us with the music to enjoy on its own merits in the end.

 

2 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Honestly, I think this edits (on the movie, not to Williams' music) were ultimately positive. I like how the climax of TPM goes back and forth between the various focuses of battle, all making the conflict "faster and driving toward the simultaneous climax to all storylines" like Pope said.

 

Yeah! The editing in the finale is an aspect of TPM that works so well, you almost just take it for granted.

[TownerFan 5,247]

Ah, the infamous Reel 6 of The Phantom Menace. Many stories have been told over the years about the fuss that happened in between the scoring sessions and the final dub. It seems Conrad's recapitulations are quite accurate and very close to what actually happened. Some of the issues were already revealed in the big article by the late Richard Dyer for The Boston Globe:

 

Quote

Spielberg has helped Lucas make these weeks a difficult time for their old friend, whom both filmmakers address as “Johnny.” Williams had completed his score to an earlier cut of the film. After consultation with Spielberg, though, Lucas had recently re-edited the sixth and final reel, the last 20 minutes of the film, which present simultaneous actions converging on the climax.

 

Williams tries to be philosophical about the pickle this has dropped him into. “If I hit the ground running,” he says, “I can write two minutes of music a day. If I were to have started all over again on the last reel, I would be ready to record in July – with the picture already in the theaters! So I’ve been making the music fit as we go along. That’s why I’m constantly telling the players to drop measures 7 to 14.”

 

I think this has always been a bigger issue for us score fans than for the filmmakers and the speculations ran rampant for a long time fueled by that infamous interview with JW by French magazine Starfix which later appeared to have been a mostly fabricated piece.

 

We can still only speculate 25 years later, but it's safe to assume that JW never held a grudge for it. He's the consummate professional and he knows that sometimes you have to let it go and move to the next project.

 

Anyhow, what CP says about the relationship between JW and Kenny Wannberg is the gold nugget there. "Every Don needs a Sancho" is a great way to put it.

[ragoz350 480]

Still, it's a shame that Williams and Wannberg's great efforts to edit the score (prior to recording) were of little use, as snippets from Duel of the Fates replaced a lot of the original material in the final edit. 

[Marian Schedenig 9,128]

If the only reason Williams didn't rescore those parts were other commitments - just imagine what we could have gotten if he'd been available: A film version of the score that flows better than what ended up in the film/the UE - and we'd still have (or get on an eventual complete release) all the other material that we do have, as an extra bonus alternate score.

[Edmilson 9,065]

I wonder what other project was there for Williams in 1999 that stopped him for working for more time on TPM.

 

TPM was recorded in February of 1999 and came out in May of that year. His only other movie from that year was Angela's Ashes, which was released on December 1999. So even if Williams still was working on TPM until, I dunno, March or early April, he'd still have plenty of time that year to score AA.

 

Maybe it wasn't another movie but actually concerts or other gigs? What else besides these two movies did he release in 99?

 

I think the most likely answer is that he thought re-scoring the entire climax of the movie was going to be such a difficult, time-consuming job, and since he already had recorded plenty of material they could just use that instead of just recording everything from reel 6 from scratch?

[Tom 5,147]

I think this is connected to reel 6 of AotC, where minutes are filled with tracking from TPM.  It is as if Williams said, you are going to butcher it anyway, just use the temp track.  

[Marian Schedenig 9,128]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

I think the most likely answer is that he thought re-scoring the entire climax of the movie was going to be such a difficult, time-consuming job, and since he already had recorded plenty of material they could just use that instead of just recording everything from reel 6 from scratch?

 

So basically, Williams said: Fuck it, let Kenny do it - and the UE is basically his final intended version of the score.

[Luke Skywalker 1,943]

3 hours ago, TownerFan said:

 

 

Anyhow, what CP says about the relationship between JW and Kenny Wannberg is the gold nugget there. "Every Don needs a Sancho" is a great way to put it.

He is wrong though. He uses Don as Obi wan used Darth in star wars, as if it was a first name…

 

he should have said “every Quixote needs a Sancho”

 

Though musically i would say, Every John needs a Don (for the timpani)

[Edmilson 9,065]

34 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

So basically, Williams set: Fuck it, let Kenny do it - and the UE is basically his final intended version of the score.

Yeah, sometimes film composers have to...

 

[Miguel Andrade 1,380]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

I wonder what other project was there for Williams in 1999 that stopped him for working for more time on TPM.

 

TPM was recorded in February of 1999 and came out in May of that year. His only other movie from that year was Angela's Ashes, which was released on December 1999. So even if Williams still was working on TPM until, I dunno, March or early April, he'd still have plenty of time that year to score AA.

 

Maybe it wasn't another movie but actually concerts or other gigs? What else besides these two movies did he release in 99?

 

I think the most likely answer is that he thought re-scoring the entire climax of the movie was going to be such a difficult, time-consuming job, and since he already had recorded plenty of material they could just use that instead of just recording everything from reel 6 from scratch?

 

Williams wrote "Tributes, For Seiji" right after finishing work on "The Phantom Menace". That was what was next, composition wise, until "Angela's Ashes".

[ymenard 60]

The UE showed that the editing of the score did not work as a stand-alone (especially once you listened to the unedited leaked parts), but it did its job in the movie.  Under all the SFX and sound editing, everybody remembers John's score during Reel 6 and it does help with the flow for almost (almost) every second of it.  I can understand that from a producer's POV ($$$$), there was no need to rescore it.

[Marian Schedenig 9,128]

1 minute ago, ymenard said:

The UE showed that the editing of the score did not work as a stand-alone

 

To be fair, that can be said of any Star Wars film going back to ESB, and it bothers me even there in the film (tracking Hyperspace into the snowspeeder search scene both over-dramatises the scene and slightly diminishes the cue's dramatic impact at the film's climax).

[oierem 185]

3 hours ago, Edmilson said:

I wonder what other project was there for Williams in 1999 that stopped him for working for more time on TPM.

 

TPM was recorded in February of 1999 and came out in May of that year. His only other movie from that year was Angela's Ashes, which was released on December 1999. So even if Williams still was working on TPM until, I dunno, March or early April, he'd still have plenty of time that year to score AA.

 

Maybe it wasn't another movie but actually concerts or other gigs? What else besides these two movies did he release in 99?

 

I think the most likely answer is that he thought re-scoring the entire climax of the movie was going to be such a difficult, time-consuming job, and since he already had recorded plenty of material they could just use that instead of just recording everything from reel 6 from scratch?

 

Considering that non of the six original SW films (recorded by the LSO) had any extra recording sessions, I'd say it's more related to the limited availability of the orchestra, rather than Williams himself being busy with other projects.

[Brando 2,176]

I’ve wondered who/why the battle was re-edited but it doesn’t surprise me that it was Steven. I think it ended up working out better with all the cuts back and forth between the different fights.

[Manakin Skywalker 5,349]

Gee, I wonder who that "friend of Lucas" could have been... 🤔

 

[Doo_liss 6,559]

2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

To be fair, that can be said of any Star Wars film going back to ESB, and it bothers me even there in the film (tracking Hyperspace into the snowspeeder search scene both over-dramatises the scene and slightly diminishes the cue's dramatic impact at the film's climax).

And then of course the replacing of all the unique March appearances with the opening ostinato (?) of the Concert Arrangement....

[Manakin Skywalker 5,349]

6 hours ago, ragoz350 said:

Still, it's a shame that Williams and Wannberg's great efforts to edit the score (prior to recording) were of little use, as snippets from Duel of the Fates replaced a lot of the original material in the final edit. 

 

On the other hand it'd be interesting to speculate what would have been said if the score had been presented as-intended, with DotF only appearing in its full form once in the film for around a minute, with everyone complaining that it "wasn't used enough".

[King Mark 3,729]

Makes me want to hear the original unedited version of the score even more. But I guess releasing it would be an admission that the original cut of the film was no good.

[Edmilson 9,065]

Isn't that what Williams originally intended for the duel before it got tracked with the concert arrangement?

 

 

[Datameister 2,289]

1 minute ago, Edmilson said:

Isn't that what Williams originally intended for the duel before it got tracked with the concert arrangement?

 

 

 

I've often wondered if JW intended for Duel of the Fates to be tracked as needed into the duel. "The Great Dual [sic]" seems to have been written for the lead-up to the laser walls. I'm not aware of any material written for the first main chunk of the duel, going from the hangar to the big reactor room or whatever. Even though DOTF was nominally written for the credits, I suspect that Williams had his eye on this scene as well. 

 

I've got zero proof, though. Just conjecture.

 

While I'm conjecturing, I'll suggest that reel 6 was probably improved by the re-editing, even though the flow of the music obviously suffered.

[Doo_liss 6,559]

23 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

I've often wondered if JW intended for Duel of the Fates to be tracked as needed into the duel. "The Great Dual [sic]" seems to have been written for the lead-up to the laser walls. I'm not aware of any material written for the first main chunk of the duel, going from the hangar to the big reactor room or whatever. Even though DOTF was nominally written for the credits, I suspect that Williams had his eye on this scene as well. 

 

I've got zero proof, though. Just conjecture.

 

While I'm conjecturing, I'll suggest that reel 6 was probably improved by the re-editing, even though the flow of the music obviously suffered.

In my restored videos I have the opening of Droid Battle for that shot of the Jedi flipping over to the other beam to lock sabers with Maul.

[Not Mr. Big 4,739]

11 minutes ago, The Great Gonzales said:

In my restored videos I have the opening of Droid Battle for that shot of the Jedi flipping over to the other beam to lock sabers with Maul.

Where?

[Muad'Dib 1,874]

2 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

On the other hand it'd be interesting to speculate what would have been said if the score had been presented as-intended, with DotF only appearing in its full form once in the film for around a minute, with everyone complaining that it "wasn't used enough".

 

I seem to recall Williams' original vision for DotF was to use it very sparignly in the movie itself to be further developed in the upcoming installments. 

[Doo_liss 6,559]

49 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Where?

Where is the video? Or where in the movie am I talking about?

 

V1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9UkdUS1FXNUx1eDA/view?usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-dfQxOnaDrVRoyaZkIYcymg

 

V2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9N2FuT2JIUzNBOTQ/view?resourcekey=0-BVsvp1Dcv49oiQId4NJrcQ

[oierem 185]

6 hours ago, The Great Gonzales said:

Where is the video? Or where in the movie am I talking about?

 

V1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9UkdUS1FXNUx1eDA/view?usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-dfQxOnaDrVRoyaZkIYcymg

 

V2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9N2FuT2JIUzNBOTQ/view?resourcekey=0-BVsvp1Dcv49oiQId4NJrcQ

 

 Interesting.

I don't know if that was the intention, but it doesn't work nearly as well as having DotF play over the duel.

 

In any case, we are still missing the music for the first part of that duel scene.

[Doo_liss 6,559]

6 minutes ago, oierem said:

 

 Interesting.

I don't know if that was the intention, but it doesn't work nearly as well as having DotF play over the duel.

 

In any case, we are still missing the music for the first part of that duel scene.

I have that covered by The Big Army:

 

 

V1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9MllqZGJMeDIzMEk/view?usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-6AMQsw1WmWBgTTntXNY8iw

 

V2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9YWxweTFYSEJtUkU/view?resourcekey=0-7AMXNzpQIYlbeM2e6EdoTw

 

 

[Jim Ware 559]

9 minutes ago, oierem said:

In any case, we are still missing the music for the first part of that duel scene.

The only other ‘duel’ related material is the extended field drum material towards the end of 6m4 The Big Army (for the Jedi and Maul unrobing) and 6m4a The Fight Begins. 
 

It’s possible that the unrecorded mid-section of 6m7 The Great Dual(sic) was intended to score part of the duel too, but without the sketches or Wannberg’s timing notes we can’t tell.

[Doo_liss 6,559]

5 minutes ago, Jim Ware said:

(for the Jedi and Maul unrobing) 

[That_Bloke 125]

Was it not both Stephen Spielberg and Ron Howard who saw the first cut of TPM (with other director-friends), and suggested to Lucas to intercut various scenes in the last reel?  

[Schilkeman 1,331]

13 hours ago, That_Bloke said:

Was it not both Stephen Spielberg and Ron Howard who saw the first cut of TPM (with other director-friends), and suggested to Lucas to intercut various scenes in the last reel?  

Ron Howard suggested a slight addition to the podrace, making Anakin's engine take longer to refire. That's all I know of for him.

[That_Bloke 125]

17 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

Ron Howard suggested a slight addition to the podrace, making Anakin's engine take longer to refire. That's all I know of for him.

 

Ah... I stand corrected and clarified. Cheers for that. 🙂