Intrada Dinosuar End Credits discussion

[Evanus 355]

So, about those phasing issues in the end credits.. sounds awful! And the missing "pushing and shoving" cue is a bit of a shame, but at least it's in the bootleg. I suppose it's unlikely they're gonna fix it?

[scallenger 577]

I hope they do. I always liked that "pushing and shoving" cue, as brief as it is.

[scallenger 577]

On 16/09/2024 at 4:36 PM, scallenger said:

• “Inner Sanctum” is combined with “The Nesting Grounds” (ala the album).
• “Playing Monster” appears to be combined with “Zini Rehearses”
• “Pushing and Shoving" from the bootleg doesn't look like it is included, but it is likely part of one of the alternates on the second disc since it isn't heard in the film. My guess is it is connected to the alternate of "Aladar Meets The Misfits". But I could be wrong.
• “Aladar Meets the Misfits” appears to be combined with a bootleg track called “Herd Prepares”.
• “Finding Water” appears to be combined with the bootleg track “Enough For Everyone”
• “Aladar & Neera” (aka “Love Theme” in the bootleg) appears to be combined with “Kron Moves The Herd”
• “Misfits & Bruton” from the bootleg appears to be combined with “The Cave”
• “Attack In The Cave” aka “The Carnotaur Attack”
• “Breakout” & “It Comes With A Pool” combined.

 

Looks like my assumptions from before were all correct, except that "Pushing and Shoving" simply isn't included.

[Brando 2,181]

So this is not used in the film and is not on the release? Can't remember the scene exactly but I'm not sure where it would've played had it been used.

 

[scallenger 577]

Correct on both counts (although just that first 35 seconds, not sure why that video has minutes of silence after haha). However it is listed as "3m1a". So it could be an alternate, maybe an insert, or I've seen some suggest it is just a mockup for an unused cue. Either way, it isn't in the film or on this release.

[Evanus 355]

It does appear to be a proper recording, looking at the spectogram. Either it was overlooked or they just thought it wasn't worth including. Shame either way!

 

That and those botched percussion sections in all three end credits.. Might be worth it to try and contact Intrada about these issues?

[scallenger 577]

I think it could be worth trying, although they will likely get irritated by us if the past is anything to go by.

[Brando 2,181]

I see. Very odd it didn't make the release but at least its on the bootleg if anyone really wants it.

[CatastrophicJones 62]

5 hours ago, Evanus said:

So, about those phasing issues in the end credits.. sounds awful! And the missing "pushing and shoving" cue is a bit of a shame, but at least it's in the bootleg. I suppose it's unlikely they're gonna fix it?

 

Another issue on a new release?? Damnit, this is making me want to order less and less, I'm waiting on mine to arrive now. What specifically is wrong? Yes please post about it in the intrada facebook group. They need to know these errors exist and that they should be double (and triple) checking their releases before being sent out.

[Evanus 355]

Yup there's a weird phase effect going on in some of the percussion sections, here's an example: End Credits Phase Issue.flac

[CatastrophicJones 62]

8 minutes ago, Evanus said:

Yup there's a weird phase effect going on in some of the percussion sections, here's an example: End Credits Phase Issue.flac

 

Hmm, interesting. Is there another mix of this I can compare it to where it sounds normal? It does sound off, but is it possible that's just how the recording sounds? I know on a bootleg of Horner's Avatar score one of the Thanator chase cues had a weird phaser sound, as if the track had been doubled on top of itself. This sounds different, I was worried it was gonna be more pronounced like on that.

 

Also, regarding the lack of inclusion of "Pushing And Shoving", having listened to the youtube link, it sounds like a demo cue rather than an actual properly recorded cue, so I could see why they'd omit that.

 

Edit: Ok, I hear a difference at 3:26 onward youtube. Does this affect all 3 versions?

[Evanus 355]

This is the film version: 

 

So they definitely messed something up on the new release. All three versions have the same issue apparently..

 

 

[CatastrophicJones 62]

6 minutes ago, Evanus said:

This is the film version: 

 

So they definitely messed something up on the new release. All three versions have the same issue apparently..

 

 

 

Man that's frustrating. Yeah I'd definitely make a post about it, it sounds like a mixing issue and they did fix the problem with Land Before Time, maybe they'll be more kind toward Dinosaur themed titles? 😅

[Holko 10,406]

1 hour ago, CatastrophicJones said:

Yes please post about it in the intrada facebook group. They need to know these errors exist and that they should be double (and triple) checking their releases before being sent out.

Unfortunately past experience shows that they prefer gaslighting their customers or waving the actual problems away, then proceeding to find new ways to mess things up on the next release. Unless it's that stupid recurring clicking or the short gaps in the gapless master which show they still haven't figured out how to export audio over the years. Those they fix because they just have to reexport the master properly without any actual work needing to be redone.

 

Not that we shouldn't still try.

[CatastrophicJones 62]

4 minutes ago, Holko said:

Unfortunately past experience shows that they prefer gaslighting their customers or waving the actual problems away. Unless it's that stupid recurring clicking or gaps in the gapless master which show they still haven't figured out how to export audio over the years. Those they fix because they just have to reexport the master properly without any actual work needing to be redone.

 

Not that we shouldn't still try.

 

I'll still advocate for saying something. Persistence prevails above all else.

 

Funny enough I've reached out to both LLL and Intrada a few times over the years inquiring about applying for jobs, which they seem to ignore because the other times I have an issue with an order, they get back to right away (as well they should). I'd love to work for them and help them improve their quality if given the chance. Oh well. LLL has been maintaining the best in quality lately, imo. Even though they didn't offer replacement discs for HP or Schindler's List, at least for the subsequent pressings the issues were fixed. I'd rather have an issue fixed, even if I have to buy it again, but I cannot actually support this as a business model as I know there are plenty of people who do not have the same luxury. But fixing something is better than not.

[Slitherjump 24]

Replacement discs for HP? This is news to me. Were all 7 discs defective?

[Trope 835]

On 17/9/2024 at 10:54 AM, A. A. Ron said:

But presumably still mastered by Doug Fake, so... yeah.

We were forewarned...

 

*removes album from cart*

[A. A. Ron 1,954]

51 minutes ago, Slitherjump said:

Replacement discs for HP? This is news to me. Were all 7 discs defective?

 

No. A handful of tracks on discs 6 and 7 were from a lower quality/technically not lossless source. Most people would never notice and it was fixed for later pressings.

 

The effected tracks were:

 

6-04 The Knight Bus (Extended Version)

6-13 Buckbeak's Flight

7-02 Time Past / Saving Buckbeak

7-04 Buckbeak Saves the Day / Watching the Past

7-14 The Knight Bus (Alternate)

7-26 The Firebolt (Alternate)

[CatastrophicJones 62]

11 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

 

No. A handful of tracks from The Prisoner of Azkaban just came from a lossy source:

 

6-04 The Knight Bus (Extended Version)

6-13 Buckbeak's Flight

7-02 Time Past / Saving Buckbeak

7-04 Buckbeak Saves the Day / Watching the Past

7-14 The Knight Bus (Alternate)

7-26 The Firebolt (Alternate)

 

Not so much they came from a lossy source, rather the pressings for whatever reason had these cues rendered in lossy format. This has been fixed and any copies you would order now show full lossless. The issue is that LLL did not issue replacement disks after the fix, despite people reaching out and requesting them.

[A. A. Ron 1,954]

I guess I was editing my comment while you were writing a reply. I think we covered the most important bits of info between the two of us.

[CatastrophicJones 62]

2 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

I guess I was editing my comment while you were writing a reply. I think we covered the most important bits of info between the two of us.

 

Lol damn I was too quick!

[Evanus 355]

So I listened to all three end credits versions, the phasing is even worse than I thought! It's there for the entire duration of that section in the end credits. Could be worse, but it does sound off.

 

So to compile all the issues:

- Missing the cue "Pushing and Shoving" that's present on the bootleg

- Percussion phasing(?) from 3:26 to 5:00 in "End Credits"

- Percussion phasing(?) from 3:22 to 4:55 in "End Credits (Version 2)"

- Percussion phasing(?) from 3:26 to 5:00 in"End Credits (Version 3)"

 

I also noticed some of the transitions sound slightly different compared to the film version, but that's nitpicking.

Are there any other issues anyone noticed?

[Manakin Skywalker 5,386]

48 minutes ago, CatastrophicJones said:

Not so much they came from a lossy source, rather the pressings for whatever reason had these cues rendered in lossy format. This has been fixed and any copies you would order now show full lossless. The issue is that LLL did not issue replacement disks after the fix, despite people reaching out and requesting them.

 

Those section did come from a lossy source because it only affected small sections of those cues, not the entire cues. How that happened I have no clue.

 

IIRC Mike said that's how the session masters that he was given were. I believe he used the OST masters for the replacement bits.

[CatastrophicJones 62]

23 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Those section did come from a lossy source because it only affected small sections of those cues, not the entire cues. How that happened I have no clue.

 

IIRC Mike said that's how the session masters that he was given were. I believe he used the OST masters for the replacement bits.

 

That'd be odd if that were the case given that I've compared both the error tracks vs the fixed ones in audition and aside from the lossy/lossless issue, they're exactly the same. If he swapped them out with different files, there be a difference in timing even by just a few milliseconds. Considering both HP and Shindler's List shared this issue, my guess is the plant pressing the cds at the time, or whoever exported the files at the time, simply mishandled/made a mistake somewhere along the pressing process that resulted in both scores experiencing this issue. They were both released during black Friday 2018. If it had been a case of it coming directly from a lossy source, it wouldn't have been as easy to fix. Unless MM or LLL say otherwise, the masters were probably fine, but I'm only going by what makes sense logically, which isn't always the case when it comes to some of these scores and releases lol

[Manakin Skywalker 5,386]

It's definitely not an issue on the part of the pressing plant, as it's just small sections with visible crossfade edits. Not sure how that could've happened, but I'm also curious if anyone still has MM's response as he did offer an explanation of some sort.

 

[Trope 835]

Not sure if this is the time or thread to open this lossy can of worms, but given the last few posts...

 

I noticed some missing frequencies in the track "Village Ruins" from LLL's First Knight:

 

...as well as in "I'm with You / What Is This Thing Called Love?" from Quartet's The Russia House:

 

Not sure if these have been brought up before in other threads.

 

 

[Manakin Skywalker 5,386]

1 hour ago, CatastrophicJones said:

That'd be odd if that were the case given that I've compared both the error tracks vs the fixed ones in audition and aside from the lossy/lossless issue, they're exactly the same. If he swapped them out with different files, there be a difference in timing even by just a few milliseconds. Considering both HP and Shindler's List shared this issue, my guess is the plant pressing the cds at the time, or whoever exported the files at the time, simply mishandled/made a mistake somewhere along the pressing process that resulted in both scores experiencing this issue. They were both released during black Friday 2018. If it had been a case of it coming directly from a lossy source, it wouldn't have been as easy to fix. Unless MM or LLL say otherwise, the masters were probably fine, but I'm only going by what makes sense logically, which isn't always the case when it comes to some of these scores and releases lol

 

After a bunch of searching I was finally able to locate Mike's explanation. Here's his direct quote:

 

Quote

This situation arose because some sections of the score were inadequate or not present on the high resolution masters that served as the primary element for the presentation. Those needed to be filled in from the soundtrack album, for which two elements were provided: a 1630 44k album master and a 48k DAT tape (those numbers refer to sample rates). The former was used for unchanged tracks like “Double Trouble,” and the latter was used when album material had to be combined with the hi-resolution data. Mathematically it made more sense to use the DAT in those instances. I had no reason to question the DAT’s quality, but it seems now that the tape was made for the AOL advance streaming presentation of the album. Nothing on the tape indicated this and the audio was not compressed or “lossy,” it simply had a frequency curve applied in order to minimize artifacting when streaming.

 

For those who would feel mentally eased by having tracks that are mathematically the same as the 2004 CD, corrections have been made using the 1630 soundtrack master. As I have now decided to run a live spectrograph throughout my work process, I do not expect this issue to come up again. Sadly, elements have proven to be untrustworthy and even more diligence will be applied going forward. 

 

[CatastrophicJones 62]

29 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

After a bunch of searching I was finally able to locate Mike's explanation. Here's his direct quote:

 

 

 

I had not seen this post, thank you for the clarification. That's why Mike is one of the best, the fact that he corrected the problem himself, I can absolutely appreciate that and more album producers/masterers should strive to be like him. Any time I see his name attached to a project, I know it'll be done right.

[A. A. Ron 1,954]

Out of curiosity, where did Mike make these comments? Was it on a public forum like this one or FSM? If so, this sounds like a thread worth reading.

[crumbs 14,905]

Those end credits tracks are problematic indeed. Frustrating because the film cues sound fine, as does the film itself (meaning it isn't a recording flaw).

 

I isolated the L/R channels and found the issue present in both channels, meaning it's not merely L/R channels out of sync. It sounds more like the percussion track was accidentally duplicated and offset on the editing timeline, resulting in a distorted double-up effect. The issue is noticeably worse in mono:

Example 1.flac

Example 2.flac

 

I tested my theory by duplicating the film cue (which sounds fine) and slightly offsetting the tracks, creating an effect identical to the Intrada issue:

Offset test.flac

 

@Chris Malone  any chance you can shine a light on this, or flag it with someone at Intrada? Also curious why the bootleg cue "Pushing and Shoving" wasn't included on the set...

[CatastrophicJones 62]

3 hours ago, Trope said:

Not sure if this is the time or thread to open this lossy can of worms, but given the last few posts...

 

I noticed some missing frequencies in the track "Village Ruins" from LLL's First Knight:

 

...as well as in "I'm with You / What Is This Thing Called Love?" from Quartet's The Russia House:

 

Not sure if these have been brought up before in other threads.

 

 

 

I would probably mention these in their corresponding threads, had no idea there were issues with either of these releases! 

[Jurassic Shark 13,390]

3 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

the 1630 soundtrack master

 

What's 1630 referring to?

[A. A. Ron 1,954]

7 hours ago, Trope said:

We were forewarned...

 

*removes album from cart*

 

 

I feel like I've opened my third eye and unlocked powers I never knew I could attain. Is this what Mattris feels like all the time?

[Davis 3,159]

13 hours ago, CatastrophicJones said:

 

Another issue on a new release?? Damnit, this is making me want to order less and less, I'm waiting on mine to arrive now. What specifically is wrong? Yes please post about it in the intrada facebook group. They need to know these errors exist and that they should be double (and triple) checking their releases before being sent out.

A re-release Inchoning… I mean incoming in 2025.

[Evanus 355]

Has anyone posted about it in the facebook group? Maybe they're already aware of the issues but I suppose it wouldn't hurt.

 

Edit: discovered another minor issue. Transition at 1:37 of "Epilogue" is slightly off. 
Original version:

 

 

New version:

 

Pretty minor, but still..

 

[CatastrophicJones 62]

2 hours ago, Evanus said:

Has anyone posted about it in the facebook group? Maybe they're already aware of the issues but I suppose it wouldn't hurt.

 

Edit: discovered another minor issue. Transition at 1:37 of "Epilogue" is slightly off. 
Original version:

   

 

New version:

 

Pretty minor, but still..

 

 

Is that from the film score presentation or album release? If it's from the score presentation it's common for there to be differences between the score and album presentation, but if it's from the album portion...

[Holko 10,406]

That just sounds like a different version was used for the OST vs the film.

[Evanus 355]

It's the same on the original album and in the film.

[Richard P 4,269]

Sounds like a different take or version, rather than an editing error. The credits issue on the other hand, is clearly some sort of error aligning different tracks - a rip I have directly from the movie (much clearer than YouTube versions) sounds very different with no weird reverb.

[Evanus 355]

Yep seems like it! Still a bit sloppy though.

 

  

Edit: scratch that, the new version seems to be accurate to the film! And the album version in the new release is the same as the original album version. So no issues there, just forget about what I said 

 

So the doubling percussion in the end credits and the missing "Pushing and Shoving" are the only issues it seems. 

[Holko 10,406]

12 hours ago, Evanus said:

Has anyone posted about it in the facebook group? Maybe they're already aware of the issues but I suppose it wouldn't hurt.

 

Edit: discovered another minor issue. Transition at 1:37 of "Epilogue" is slightly off. 
Original version:

 

 

New version:

 

Pretty minor, but still..

 

 

10 hours ago, Evanus said:

Edit: scratch that, the new version seems to be accurate to the film! And the album version in the new release is the same as the original album version. So no issues there, just forget about what I said 

 

OK, figured this out.

OST Epilogue is the same take as Intrada/Film Epilogue, except for this main theme statement at 1:30-2:02, which is tracked from The Egg Travels for whatever reason, there's nothing wrong with the Epilogue performance there.

[Evanus 355]

Interesting! So this is the first time we're getting the actual film version of that moment, that's pretty neat.

 

I have to say this release sounds fantastic, and disc 1 is pretty much perfect. So it's a shame about the messed up credits and missing track on disc 2.

[Richard P 4,269]

Yeah, I'm overall very happy with this release - I discovered a few unreleased moments that I'd never listened to and most of the cue combinations work rather well, and the mastering on the whole thing is nice with lots of detail. A nice upgrade on the OST - just a shame that something's gone awry on the end credits. It's hard not to notice it.

[Evanus 355]

So uh.. any response from intrada yet?

[Chewy 2,587]

Nothing yet. But since the end credits tracks is mostly a combination of cues from the main program, it can be fixed quite easily.

That's plan B, in case Intrada never answers.

[Evanus 355]

True, but I'd like to have the proper version on the disc as well 

[Richard P 4,269]

I wouldn't mind if they fixed the problem and just had a lossless track available to download. (I know they can't due to licensing)

[FunnyML 112]

I wouldn't mind if they just had included the stuff that was actually recorded for it - 9M1 (3 versions), 9M1B, 9M1C (2 versions).

[Evanus 355]

[Holko 10,406]

Did you go and write in their FB group or something? That's one place where Roger's pretty safely reachable... and will probably at best just tell you that it's just a minor mixing difference, since they remixed the score, duh.