Danny Elfman, John Debney, and Christopher Young - SPIDER-MAN 2 (2004) - 2024 La La Land Records edition produced by Neil S. Bulk and Dan Goldwasser

[Marian Schedenig 9,151]

1 hour ago, karelm said:

For example, the main title theme, Chris wrote his music then the music stopped for 18 bars (or whatever it was for the insert) that were just inserts of Danny's theme.  We had access to all of Danny's material and could just insert but like any composer hired to score a film, you would want to do that as little as possible so you can produce your vision of the material.  That happened wherever Danny's theme came in straight as written from prior films.

 

Are those straight inserts of the Elfman material the reason why Elfman has been preventing a release of the score? Or did Young use his theme in his own cues that that's what he objects to? (I'm not familiar with the score)

[Matt C 481]

2 hours ago, Davis said:

I’m sure Spider-Man 3 is already in the pipeline for a 2027 release.

I think it will come out sooner than that. LLL has a working relationship with both Young and Elfman— there’s no way the negotiations for the SM2 expansion were a one off (and probably included SM-3 too).
 

The question is whether a SM-3 CD premiere would include all the music as heard in the film or will it be more curated to curb the excessive temp track usage of Elfman’s material from the first two films? And I assume Debney and Lurie’s music will be included on the set too.

[NL197 468]

2 hours ago, karelm said:

 One other thing worth mentioning, sometimes (often) the filmmakers don't know what they want and ask two or more composers to score the same scene in different ways and then decide which they'll use.  That happened too.  So one shouldn't interpret that as the composer missed the mark because they might not have known of the other direction. 

Sounds exactly like what happened with James Horner and Abel Korzeniowski.

[bruce marshall 1,378]

Do fans of the SCORE for S3 like the film?

Imo it sucked

  

 

[karelm 3,099]

54 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Are those straight inserts of the Elfman material the reason why Elfman has been preventing a release of the score? Or did Young use his theme in his own cues that that's what he objects to? (I'm not familiar with the score)

I don't think Elfman has any control - he doesn't own the material.  We know that because we could use it without his input or involvement.  It was Raimi who wanted the original material used and Chris said the themes needed to be flushed out further but preferred creating new themes than existing ideas that weren't full themes.  There was a CD master made but my recollection is Sony determined not to make a soundtrack because the landscape was shifting and some other big budget film flopped (I just can't remember what it was...were all the Pirates movies huge successes?) so Sony felt that and a shift away from soundtracks to download was happening AND the film wasn't well received by fans.  So the production company shelved the soundtrack back then.  Chris was very excited to release the album and I remember seeing it as a single CD around 65 minutes in duration, but it was only the master that was submitted and the release squashed.  They just didn't feel it was going to be sufficiently profitable at that time.  

[Davis 3,135]

57 minutes ago, Matt C said:

I think it will come out sooner than that

Maybe, but 2027 will be the film’s 20th anniversary.

[Matt C 481]

2 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

Do fans of the SCORE for S3 like the film?

Imo it sucked

  

 

Raimi nailed the crucial character scenes in S3 but the script was a mess (a properly scripted SM-3 should’ve been a succinct 2 hour film). The producers and Sony should’ve let him make the film his way, a la Christopher Nolan.

 

And I’ve met Sam, he’s one of the nicest and most personable guys to talk to. They should’ve let the man alone after how wildly successful & acclaimed SM-2 was.

[Brando 2,180]

I like the movie but Venom never should've been apart of it, and Raimi didn't want him in it because he said he didn't understand the character, or something to that effect.

[crocodile 8,608]

Yeah, well, you squeeze in brooding 90s villain in the 1960-70s aesthetic. You just can't. 

 

Karol

[OneBuckFilms 390]

I personally like SM3, but it does have its flaws.

 

Christopher Young’s score is excellent but with a different feel from the first two films.

 

I hope that score finally gets released officially and given the same treatment as the Elfman scores.

 

It would bring some closure for this score and the Raimi SM scores.

[John Dutton 7,502]

It's a decent movie 

[ddddeeee 364]

I've come to love Spider-Man 3. Its flaws are plenty, but its sincerity really makes it hold up and stand out. I love everything about Sandman. I especially love how Raimi conceived the 'big bad' of the finale of the trilogy to be a guy who's decent at heart and is ultimately 'defeated' by... being forgiven. Corny? Sure, but I like that its unashamed to hang its heart of its sleeve, and it's far more satisfying than having the conflict resolved by who can throw the bigger punch. (Raimi did something similar in MoM by having Wanda 'defeated' by...getting what she wanted and being consoled by herself.) 

 

 

[mstrox 6,939]

4 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

Do fans of the SCORE for S3 like the film?

Imo it sucked

  

 

 

Well the score sucked too, but that isn’t stopping them!

[Doo_liss 6,632]

2 minutes ago, mstrox said:

 

Well the score sucked too, but that isn’t stopping them!

We're not talking about the Elfshit mstrox.

[NL197 468]

It was a fantastic experience rewatching these films back in the spring / early summer during the “Spider-Mondays” run of all live action movies. Of these three in particular, the theater I attended had the smallest audience for the first film, the largest for the second and somewhere in between for the third. 

[Davis 3,135]

The second film is easily the best of the trilogy. It has the best, most epic Spider-Man web swinging to date. And it's losely based on the classic The Amazing Spider-Man #50 "Spider-Man No More!" by Stan Lee and John Romita. 

 

[mstrox 6,939]

Nothing will beat the first for me!  A lot of classic, filmic moments, but still pretty lean, direct and to the point.  Raimi’s sequels kept getting flabbier and flabbier.

[Stark 566]

Despite Raimi disliking Venom and clearly despising Eddie Brock, I thought the Venom side of the film had by far the most interesting ideas and execution. Meanwhile the widely praised Sandman is… just there.

[ddddeeee 364]

Eddie Brock/Venom being summed up with 'I like being bad; it makes me happy," feels so incongruous with the very human and personal drama of Sandman and Harry. He just doesn't belong. I also think Raimi's original plan of for Peter to become cocky/angry without the conceit of the black suit is far more compelling, but I guess that was never going to fly.

 

I flip flop between enjoying the first or second more. I'd say I prefer the first thirty minutes of SM1 to anything in SM2, but SM2 is overall just tighter. It's one of the only big budget sequel I can think of that manages to feel bigger and more intimate at the same time. Both are great, though. 

 

On another note, here's Steve Bartek on what happened with Spider-Man 2:

 

The Danny/Sam Raimi controversy seemed fairly simple from my perspective: Sam abandoned ship for the week of recording [Spider-Man 2]. Much like I had said how great it was recording without the director on my low budget film score, with Danny he lost his director on Spider-Man 2 and it was not good. Sam showed up the first day, then disappeared to a vacation with his family. Then he came back with a list of notes that he wanted changes. While we were recording without him, we were trying to second-guess what he wanted. Sam had been listening to the temp score so much that he wanted a parts of the score  to be more like temp. No matter what you of him or what relationship you have with him good or bad, it's the director’s film and it's he who decides what is going to be in the movie. You have no real control of how your music is used. As the composer you need to satisfy the director’s needs and with Sam Raimi disappearing, we had no chance of satisfying what he wanted. Having a director involved with your work may be painful but the film  will be better for it.

 

https://neumation-music.com/blogs/news/a-composer-in-conversation-steve-bartek?srsltid=AfmBOoonmSWIndHFy9sYYY96z7sJ-yDMlyhir9-pg9aKjS1q2sExeyFu

[FunnyML 111]

Do we know if 5M10 Aunt May Sells Spidey will be part of either 5M9 Aunt May Packs (2:56) or 5M11 Not Back Yet (1:09)? Just curious because it seems to be the only cue "missing" from the tracklist.

[bruce marshall 1,378]

Anyone else notice that the plots of S2&S3 mirror those of SUPERMAN 2&3?

 Think about it.

  

 

[Manakin Skywalker 5,364]

54 minutes ago, FunnyML said:

Do we know if 5M10 Aunt May Sells Spidey will be part of either 5M9 Aunt May Packs (2:56) or 5M11 Not Back Yet (1:09)? Just curious because it seems to be the only cue "missing" from the tracklist.

 

5M9 and 5M10 were combined into a single cue (called "5M9/10 Aunt May Packs") during recording. The old bootleg simply calls it "Aunt May Packs and Sells Spidey", which is the same length as the track on the LLL set.

[Davis 3,135]

9 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

Anyone else notice that the plots of S2&S3 mirror those of SUPERMAN 2&3?

 Think about it.

  

 

Interesting, there are similarities, but the plot of S2 was partly based on a 1967 comic book. 

[crocodile 8,608]

10 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

Anyone else notice that the plots of S2&S3 mirror those of SUPERMAN 2&3?

 Think about it.

  

 

The plot of Superman: The Movie mirrors S1, too.

 

Karol

[bruce marshall 1,378]

5 hours ago, crocodile said:

The plot of Superman: The Movie mirrors S1, too.

 

Karol

I know!😊

6 hours ago, Davis said:

Interesting, there are similarities, but the plot of S2 was partly based on a 1967 comic book. 

In The comic he quits.

In the film he actually loses his powers- like Superman does in II#

[Davis 3,135]

1 hour ago, bruce marshall said:

In The comic he quits.

In the film he actually loses his powers- like Superman does in II#

Yes, but you said that the plot of S2 mirrors the plot of Superman II, and I pointed out that the comic book S2 was based on predates Superman II. 

[bruce marshall 1,378]

14 minutes ago, Davis said:

Yes, but you said that the plot of S2 mirrors the plot of Superman II, and I pointed out that the comic book S2 was based on predates Superman II. 

In the comic Spidey quits, he retains his powers.

S2 copies the plot point of voluntarily giving up/losing superpowers from SUPEII.

It's a subtle difference

[Giftheck 1,030]

On 02/11/2024 at 4:31 PM, karelm said:

I don't think Elfman has any control - he doesn't own the material.  We know that because we could use it without his input or involvement.  It was Raimi who wanted the original material used and Chris said the themes needed to be flushed out further but preferred creating new themes than existing ideas that weren't full themes.  There was a CD master made but my recollection is Sony determined not to make a soundtrack because the landscape was shifting and some other big budget film flopped (I just can't remember what it was...were all the Pirates movies huge successes?) so Sony felt that and a shift away from soundtracks to download was happening AND the film wasn't well received by fans.  So the production company shelved the soundtrack back then.  Chris was very excited to release the album and I remember seeing it as a single CD around 65 minutes in duration, but it was only the master that was submitted and the release squashed.  They just didn't feel it was going to be sufficiently profitable at that time.  

I always thought the rumour going around that Elfman torpedoed Spider-Man 3 getting a soundtrack release was absurd, and for that very reason that he didn't own the material. Honestly, Sony going 'welp, soundtrack CDs just don't make us money' sounds about right.

[Richard P 4,267]

Oddly I thought I once read the opposite - that after the chaos of Spidey 2, Elfman got the rights to his themes from Sony, hence the only way Young would get an album out would have been by editing out any references to Elfman's themes, which was hardly going to happen. Could be total rubbish.

 

I guess the idea of Sony deciding against a CD makes sense if they were going to have to shell out a lot for the AFM fees - which for our labels would be a bankrupting move, but for a major studio is just a cost that might not make a good return.

 

We can only hope that the AFM isn't an impenetrable obstacle to Spidey 3 - it's astonishing how long a modern, huge orchestral score for a tentpole blockbuster by an A-list composer can go 100% unreleased.

[ddddeeee 364]

7 minutes ago, Giftheck said:

I always thought the rumour going around that Elfman torpedoed Spider-Man 3 getting a soundtrack release was absurd, and for that very reason that he didn't own the material. Honestly, Sony going 'welp, soundtrack CDs just don't make us money' sounds about right.

I've thought the same, but I've heard Young say it several times in interviews. True or not, he certainly believes it to be true.

[Tom Guernsey 2,735]

3 minutes ago, ddddeeee said:

I've thought the same, but I've heard Young say it several times in interviews. True or not, he certainly believes it to be true.

Maybe DE did intervene and the studio buckled due to not wanting to piss off one of their top composers in the same way JW is deferred to in a way that is probably officially unnecessary but is done out of respect.  Plus, if DE objects and it'll cost a fortune, it's an easy decision to just pull the plug and not risk the cost or potential animus.

[Manakin Skywalker 5,364]

33 minutes ago, ddddeeee said:

I've thought the same, but I've heard Young say it several times in interviews. True or not, he certainly believes it to be true.

 

Maybe that's what Sony told him so he'd stop asking for an album release. 

[The Train Station 8,870]

How did Danny Elfman become so powerful?

[bruce marshall 1,378]

6 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 - it's astonishing how long a modern, huge orchestral score for a tentpole blockbuster by an A-list composer can go 100% unreleased.

You mean like WAKANDA FOREVER?

😔😣

[John Dutton 7,502]

Never heard of it

[Doo_liss 6,632]

16 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

You mean like WAKANDA FOREVER?

😔😣

Uh... What?

 

 

[Edmilson 9,122]

7 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

it's astonishing how long a modern, huge orchestral score for a tentpole blockbuster by an A-list composer can go 100% officially unreleased.

Fixed.

[HunterTech 1,290]

On 24/11/2022 at 9:33 PM, HunterTech said:

With this, Spidey 2 and 3 would have to be 4 discs each! Well, maybe less so 2, as I can't imagine Elfman composed much (if any) alts if he walked off the production. But 3 absolutely has the material to receive such a lengthy set. Let's just hope we get lucky!

 

Boy am I glad to have been wrong here

Even with the SM1 expansion and the film itself being fresh from the theater reruns earlier in the year, I didn't anticipate this much Elfman material alone existing for SM2. I kind of figured Danny just bolted the moment he finished the base score, which admittedly is silly in retrospect. Especially when two of the alts are for scenes that ended up being rescored in the final cut, so I'm most interested to listen to those. And like with its predecessor, it'll be nice to presumably hear stuff in the main program that'll surprise me after so many years of being used to the bootleg.

 

And need I say anything about the Young and Debney material? I'm more enthused by the prospect that the latter had an unused track! Let alone that his work is finally available period. I'm not sure why they couldn't have included the alts for the Demonstration sequence that is on the CY promo, but I'm guessing their "even closer to the Hellraiser temp track" nature made them too risky.

In any case, I'm incredibly excited for this release (even if my reactions have been a bit reserved for what they should be ).

[Cameron007 71]

I always thought the Demonstration cues were duplicated on the promo, just with different mixes/takes.

 

And which one is Debney's unused cue?

[HunterTech 1,290]

There are definitely differences in key sections of the alts, even if it isn't far off from how karlem described the recording process of SM3. Clearly, the versions used in the film were picked because more was done to not make them sound like full on carbon copies of the temp track. I only note it because most copies of the SM2 "complete" bootleg end up using the alts instead, so it's difficult to be certain yet which exact iterations will be what's on the LLL release.

 

21. Open Heart** 1:03

[Richard P 4,267]

I never listened to the 'demonstration' cues that much, but the main one I remember is one that started with a huge choral section extremely reminiscent of Young's The Fly II. Is it a reasonable assumption that the versions chosen for this set will be the ones used in the film, or would above discussions suggest being more careful from a temping perspective?

 

The train cues are extremly interesting from a stylistic perspective - I love both cues and they represent a very different way of scoring the same scene. Although being less familiar with Young's older material I've never been entirely sure why they rescored that scene - there's nothing wrong with Elfman's cue.

 

A minor hope for this set is that Spidey Falls matches the film - one of the leaks on YouTube contains an alternate that's nowhere near as good, whereas the film has a wonderful, somewhat subdued statement of the spidey theme and I was disappointed it wasn't on the album from the moment I saw the film.

 

Also revisited Spidey 3 yesterday and found with this score that it's primarily the Sandman and action material that's really good - the personal/family bits aren't as interesting to me (they never were with Elfman either). Maybe in the coming years an arrangement might be found with the AFM to get this one out. Given some recent comments stating that projects/franchises like Spidey were off the table for the labels, it feels like there are no longer any hard and fast rules with what might be doable.

[crocodile 8,608]

1 hour ago, Richard P said:

The train cues are extremly interesting from a stylistic perspective - I love both cues and they represent a very different way of scoring the same scene. Although being less familiar with Young's older material I've never been entirely sure why they rescored that scene - there's nothing wrong with Elfman's cue.

I might be misremembering something but I think it has something to do with tempo of the music.

 

Karol

[karelm 3,099]

2 hours ago, Richard P said:

I never listened to the 'demonstration' cues that much, but the main one I remember is one that started with a huge choral section extremely reminiscent of Young's The Fly II. Is it a reasonable assumption that the versions chosen for this set will be the ones used in the film, or would above discussions suggest being more careful from a temping perspective?

 

The train cues are extremely interesting from a stylistic perspective - I love both cues and they represent a very different way of scoring the same scene. Although being less familiar with Young's older material I've never been entirely sure why they rescored that scene - there's nothing wrong with Elfman's cue.

 

The director didn't like it because Elfman scored the wrong point of view.  He was following the train so as it slowed, the score slowed.  Raimi wanted the intensity amped up so technically, as the train approached the edge of the track should have been the moment of highest intensity matching the drama, not the action.  Elfman and Raimi were butting heads a lot and he didn't rescore it so Young did taking the directors feedback and directives into account.

[Matt C 481]

On 3/11/2024 at 2:40 PM, Tom Guernsey said:

Maybe DE did intervene and the studio buckled due to not wanting to piss off one of their top composers in the same way JW is deferred to in a way that is probably officially unnecessary but is done out of respect.  Plus, if DE objects and it'll cost a fortune, it's an easy decision to just pull the plug and not risk the cost or potential animus.

It doesn’t make sense. Giacchino used several of DE’s motifs in Spider-Man No Way Home (including Doc Ock). And that film got a OST release with the motifs included.

[NL197 468]

I have never once believed that Elfman has some sort of authority over the studio regarding his Spider-Man themes. That is such a rare thing, a film score being owned even in a small percentage, by a composer. 

Also, the idea of a studio wanting to piss off a composer? Why would a studio care ? Director or producer that makes the billions sure, but the music people?

 

Elfman, like all composers who have come and gone, is not John Williams. Maybe he has that kind of deference but he’s the GOAT in a class all his own.  

That isn’t a slight against anyone else to say that. It’s just the way it is. 
 

 

AFM reuse fees for the recording and Sony seeing the lackluster reception to Spider-Man 3 were reason enough to forget a score album release. 

[GerateWohl 5,159]

On 11/11/2024 at 12:50 PM, Richard P said:

I never listened to the 'demonstration' cues that much, but the main one I remember is one that started with a huge choral section extremely reminiscent of Young's The Fly II.

I don't think, that there is any choir in The Fly II.

[Edmilson 9,122]

For those wanting to compare the train scene with Elfman's and Young's scores, someone posted a video of it on this thread:

 

 

[Smaug The Iron 568]

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/15Qx1qn29a/

[Matt C 481]

Got a shipping notice from LLL! 
 

Can’t wait.

[TBO1711 32]

Are we one step closer to getting a Spider-Man 3 expanded soundtrack?