Exsultate Justi vs. Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas

[Trope 908]

What is the JWFan consensus?

[GerateWohl 5,344]

None of both. But if you would beat me to it, I would pick Exsultate Justi.

Anway, as epic choral finale I prefer Duell of the Fates from The Phantom Menace.

[Jurassic Shark 13,719]

Yub Nub.

[Holko 10,712]

I don't hate Merry Christmas Merry Christmas but come on. Easily Exsultate Justi!

[Jurassic Shark 13,719]

Merry Christmas is more varied. 

[Thor 8,688]

"Exultate Justi" wins for me, rather easily. Feels like a proper pastiche piece. 

[Naïve Old Fart 10,790]

Offhand, I'd say "Exultate Justi", but... it isn't a Christmas song.

A better comparison would be "Gloria".

[BB-8 4,132]

Latin vs English

non-X-mas vs X-mas

 

Clear which one works better for me at the moment.

[Jurassic Shark 13,719]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

"Exultate Justi" wins for me, rather easily. Feels like a proper pastiche piece. 

 

Because pastiche is your gold standard? 

[Thor 8,688]

Well-made pastiche is some of the best there is.

[Datameister 2,361]

Merry Christmas for me. Which is kinda funny, since I really disliked it at first. But it's grown on me some. I can't say the same for Exultate Justi.

[bollemanneke 3,701]

Merry Christmas. Take away the lyrics (if you must) and it's above and beyond EJ.

[Marian Schedenig 9,384]

I don't see why we're comparing these two specifically. Exsultate Justi is a classic, and a rare example of Williams doing a "classical" choir song. Merry Christmas on the other hand is seriously bawdy. I love the orchestral bits (not the "instrumental version", mind you, which is just the choir version sans the choir, and thus only half orchestrated during the choir parts), but I find it hard to stomach how it turns the choir up to 11.

[Trope 908]

39 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I don't see why we're comparing these two specifically. 

I feel they share some similarities and wanted to see what the consensus was on the forum. Both are something of a choral fanfare, and are structurally based on a lot of repetition (and also share similar melodic/intervallic and even harmonic elements at times, despite their stylistic differences). 

[igger6 970]

Bawdy? Am I missing some unseemly underbelly to those astonishingly insipid lyrics? Take them away, though, and you have one of the most joyous pre-Elf Christmas compositions for film. 

[Marian Schedenig 9,384]

8 hours ago, igger6 said:

Bawdy? Am I missing some unseemly underbelly to those astonishingly insipid lyrics? Take them away, though, and you have one of the most joyous pre-Elf Christmas compositions for film. 

 

I was talking purely musically, not about the lyrics. The way "Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!" is sungshouted is quite hysterical. It seems to encompass everything that Europeans tend to complain is "too American" about Christmas these days.

[BB-8 4,132]

44 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

I was talking purely musically, not about the lyrics. The way "Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!" is sungshouted is quite hysterical. It seems to encompass everything that Europeans tend to complain is "too American" about Christmas these days.

[Tom 5,228]

edit--too tired to fight with youtube links. 

[Andy 5,415]

I prefer Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas.  Remove the lyrics and context, and MC,MC is more playful whereas EJ is more... religious?  I can't help gut gravitate towards the infectious fun.

[Tom 5,228]

27 minutes ago, Andy said:

I prefer Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas.  Remove the lyrics and context, and MC,MC is more playful whereas EJ is more... religious?  I can't help gut gravitate towards the infectious fun.

How about Star of Bethlehem versus EJ, then?  

[Andy 5,415]

Tough one. Star of Bethlehem has that awesome brass chorale ending.  But it musically doesn’t reach the depths of glory that EJ does. 

[igger6 970]

14 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

The way "Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!" is sungshouted is quite hysterical.

 

Agreed, and it's superseded only by the way "YES!" is actually shouted.  It's like JW was trying to physically insert a Macaulay Culkin line into a piece of choral music.  I'm just glad the instrumental version doesn't simulate it by having all the brass play different notes simultaneously on that last beat.

[Trope 908]

Exsultate Christmas (just to prove a point that these pieces do share similarities, I'm not completely mad):

 

 

[BB-8 4,132]

At least I know that I don't like...

 

nor...

,

nor...

.

[Jurassic Shark 13,719]

13 minutes ago, BB-8 said:

nor...

.

 

Ah yes, Morricone's lets-paste-two-melodies-over-each-other-and-see-if-they-gel approach. They don't. 

[BB-8 4,132]

18 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

I was talking purely musically, not about the lyrics. The way "Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!" is sungshouted is quite hysterical. It seems to encompass everything that Europeans tend to complain is "too American" about Christmas these days.

 

This encompasses everything that Europeans tend to complain is "too British" about Christmas...

 

[Andy 5,415]

On 10/12/2024 at 11:30 PM, Trope said:

Exsultate Christmas (just to prove a point that these pieces do share similarities, I'm not completely mad):

 

Well, I’ll never hear either of those the same way again! Thanks!

[Jurassic Shark 13,719]

On 11/12/2024 at 5:30 AM, Trope said:

Exsultate Christmas (just to prove a point that these pieces do share similarities, I'm not completely mad):

 

 

Maybe not completely...

[TownerFan 5,415]

I like them both for different reasons.

 

"Exsultate Justi" is a gem in which JW almost goes full out Baroque, with high trumpet flourishes and polyphonic, motet-like choral writing that creates a beautiful rich texture. It's one of the rare circumstances where JW wrote what could be considered sacred music. I never considered a festive piece, but it could definitely fit into that category.

 

"Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas" is a joyous and yes, very bombastic and over the top, but it's so much fun. It doesn't have the noble feeling of a John Rutter Christmas piece or the sweetness of the classic Christmas carols, but it's rather in the spirit of secular Holiday music. For me, it really feels like what Christmas is for a little kid, when the day finally arrives and you get up so excited to find your gifts under the tree and then the family gathers for the lunch to celebrate. Musically speaking it has some truly wonderful writing for brass and the classic Williams' sophisticated interplay between the sections--I just adore what the French Horn does in the Hook-like sort of development section in the middle, together with the flutes and the pizzicato strings.

[BB-8 4,132]

On 10/12/2024 at 3:12 PM, Marian Schedenig said:

 

I was talking purely musically, not about the lyrics. The way "Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!" is sungshouted is quite hysterical. It seems to encompass everything that Europeans tend to complain is "too American" about Christmas these days.

 

Here's a shouting and stomping version of Exsultate Justi...

 

[Thor 8,688]

13 minutes ago, BB-8 said:

Here's a shouting and stomping version of Exsultate Justi...

 

LOL, that was terrible, and I don't even mean the stomping. They sing it as if they are robots that have the kettle on, and need to get back home as soon as possible.

[Tom 5,228]

That is just atrocious and horrendous, yet, for whatever reason I was laughing to the point of tears at the absurdity of the conductor.  

[BB-8 4,132]

Just imagined telling the choir: "Sorry folks, that was awful, just awful."

 

It's true but it would be rather harsh after so much over-commitment.

 

These kids get it better...

 

[Marian Schedenig 9,384]

2 hours ago, BB-8 said:

Here's a shouting and stomping version of Exsultate Justi...

 

LAUDAMUS TAY!!!!11

 

Should have taken some laudanum…

[Tom 5,228]

I look forward to his stomping version of Schindler's List.  Maybe a whole stomping album of all the hits.  

[Tom Guernsey 2,810]

18 minutes ago, BB-8 said:

Just imagined telling the choir: "Sorry folks, that was awful, just awful."

 

It's true but it would be rather harsh after so much over-commitment.

 

These kids get it better...

 

I've always thought that in any sane world, Merry Christmas X2 would get regular outings at festive concerts by amateur (and professional) choirs and orchestras. It's a perfect encore/finale (alongside/instead of the inevitable Jingle Bells). It's insanely catchy, lots of fun (for singers and audience) the only real downside being that, as it's JW, it's a bitch for the orchestra - mind you, the brass players in that YouTube performance do a sterling job, especially the horn player in the instrumental break. That's a fiendish passage and totally exposed; Even the lead horn player of the LSO split a few notes in the horn solo in JFK when I saw JW conduct them years ago.

 

6 hours ago, BB-8 said:

 

Here's a shouting and stomping version of Exsultate Justi...

 

 

That is quite a strange version of Exultate Justi to be sure... although the issues are more with the arrangement rather than the choir, who seem like a technically accomplished group. I'm sure if they just performed it as written (with an orchestra), they could do a perfectly enjoyable rendition. It doesn't help that it's rather fast too.

 

As to the original topic, I shall unhelpfully comment that the two works aren't particularly comparable beyond being uplifting choral compositions by the same composer. Exultate Justi as a choral anthem that has "lifted from an oratorio" vibes whereas Merry Christmas X2 is just a fun, slightly cheesy, secular Christmas song. I guess Exultate Justi is the more sophisticated work by its nature, but I probably enjoy Merry Christmas X2 more.

 

I call it a draw.

[Marian Schedenig 9,384]

We shall henceforth refer to it as MCx2.

[Meredith McKay 7,067]

Haters of MCx2:

 

[Andy 5,415]

I imagine Max the dog likes it. You can’t lump him in with his owner. 

[Meredith McKay 7,067]

1 minute ago, Andy said:

I imagine Max the dog likes it. You can’t lump him in with his owner. 

Of course, it was just the first image that wasn't the awful modern film versions.

[Andy 5,415]

I watched the original cartoon just this evening.  According to Seuss, the Grinch has put up with it for 53 years.  Which means next year, I will presumably be the same age as the Grinch.  Perhaps I will turn green or be a bastard to my neighbors at Christmas.  I am getting rather grouchy. 

[Meredith McKay 7,067]

4 minutes ago, Andy said:

I watched the original cartoon just this evening.  According to Seuss, the Grinch has put up with it for 53 years.  Which means next year, I will presumably be the same age as the Grinch.  Perhaps I will turn green or be a bastard to my neighbors at Christmas.  I am getting rather grouchy. 

To be his biggest problem seemed to be:

 

[Mr. Hooper 3,749]

20 minutes ago, Andy said:

I am getting rather grouchy. 

Something tells me your version of "grouchy" is most people's version of having a good day.

[Jamie Dutton 7,656]

Merry Christmas is good when it's a symphonic version without any atrocious lyrics like in the Duncan's Toy Store scene. But those lyrics. Absolutely atrocious.

[Lady Dimitrescu 9,109]

Sing a song for the glorious season!

[Jamie Dutton 7,656]

Leslie Brickuss, what a deranged lunatic

[Incanus 5,827]

Exsultate Justi

[Tom Guernsey 2,810]

8 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

We shall henceforth refer to it as MCx2.

I wanted to call it Merry Christmas², but I would have been rightly told off by the maths equivalent of the grammar police...

 

3 hours ago, Jamie Dutton said:

Merry Christmas is good when it's a symphonic version without any atrocious lyrics like in the Duncan's Toy Store scene. But those lyrics. Absolutely atrocious.

I mean, yeah, the lyrics aren't great, but then lots of Christmas songs have lyrics which are very twee or outright rude...

 

 

Having last week attended a Christmas concert of the sort I alluded to in my earlier post, my friend I realised how badly some well known Christmas carols rhyme and scan (we're fun like that). It doesn't make them any less enjoyable to belt out with a full orchestra playing the accompaniment.

 

...and let's face it, Exsultate Justi only works lyrically because it's in Latin. In English, it's basically "we praise you, rejoice, alleluia etc" over and over again (I mean, most requiem mass settings are like that). As I'm not a native Latin speaker (is anyone any more...?), the words just become semi-meaningless sounds - it might as well be a made up language. If it were in English, I think it would sound more obviously repetitive. There's a disconnect by it not being in a language I speak, well, aside from what I learnt at school, but it's not about Caecilius and family...

[GerateWohl 5,344]

I the meantime I have to say, I am a little tired of Christmas song, that are only about cakes, cookies, presents, snow, sleighs, Santa Claus or cozy homes and prefer those traditional ones that actually deal with the Christmas events, Christ being born, spreading the message, the sheppards, the star, world being saved etc.

[Holko 10,712]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

I the meantime I have to say, I am a little tired of Christmas song, that are only about cakes, cookies, presents, snow, sleighs, Santa Claus or cozy homes and prefer those traditional ones that actually deal with the Christmas events, Christ being born, spreading the message, the sheppards, the star, world being saved etc.

I'm not religious in the slightest but I also seem to prefer the ones about the mythology of the whole thing. My favourite bit of my Home Alone listens might be the church sequence which I extended with the unused songs: O Holy Night, Silent Night, God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen, Star of Betlehem, Carol of the Bells, Setting the Trap.