The Patriot (Intrada) 3CD Set

[Jay 41,255]

EDIT: This post was initially made in response to posts that are now moved to a separate thread.  The second half of Townerfan's post that remains in this thread could not be moved there, due to the first half of his post belonging here.

 

 

This thread is specifically about the Patriot expansion, in the John Williams subforum of this message board, so should be filled with only discussion about this specific release (and the score and film in general).

 

If you have no interest in the expansion whatsoever, I do suggest you simply ignore the thread and do not post in it.  Furthermore, if you have no interest in this expansion and seeing this news spurs you to want to discuss the actual music in the score, by all means please bump an existing thread about the score and do so.  In fact, an existing thread about this score was just bumped the other day:

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27258-the-patriot-john-williams/

 

Additionally, this side discussion about our hobby in general is very valid to discuss, and very on-topic for this message board in general, but should be done somewhere in General Discussion, please.  This thread should stay focused on this new album specifically.

 

This is something we will be cracking down on this year.  Threads dedicated to new specialty album announcements should stay focused on that album (and its score and film in general), and not filled with complaints about expansions in general from the usual suspects, dumb Bruce images, off-topic banter, and anything else that detracts from the exciting news that every new specialty label announcement brings to so many people.

 

Thank you.

[Jurassic Shark 14,205]

I hope the David Arnold demos will be included, but of course they won't be.

[Jay 41,255]

5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I hope the David Arnold demos will be included, but of course they won't be.

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

@TownerFan posted this on FSM:

 

"No David Arnold demos whatsoever in this release."

 

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=158930&forumID=1&archive=0

 

[Chewy 2,637]

3 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I hope the David Arnold demos will be included, but of course they won't be.

 

Nope

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

 

@TownerFan posted this on FSM:

 

"No David Arnold demos whatsoever in this release."

 

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=158930&forumID=1&archive=0

 

[Thor 9,081]

11 minutes ago, Jay said:

This is something we will be cracking down on this year.  Threads dedicated to new specialty album announcements should stay focused on that album (and its score and film in general), and not filled with the complaints about expansions in general from the usual suspects, dumb Bruce images, and off-topic banter in general.

 

Sounds a bit....uhm, robotic. Isn't that a bit like draining all life out of chats? Isn't off-topic banter part of JWFAN's DNA, originally? Conversations move where conversations move etc.? But anyways, as long as spin-off discussions are moved to other threads and not deleted or whatever, I won't mind too much.

[Jay 41,255]

I never said off-topic banter had to go away entirely, I very specifically and clearly said we'll be keeping threads about new specialty label titles more focused.  I thought I was clear.

[Jurassic Shark 14,205]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

 

 

I guess it would make sense to release the demos separately, if there's any substance to them.

[Thor 9,081]

Quote

I never said off-topic banter had to go away entirely, I very specifically and clearly said we'll be keeping threads about new specialty label titles more focused.  I thought I was clear.

 

Alright. You do what you have to do.

[Marian Schedenig 9,718]

6 hours ago, Thor said:

Like many JW albums, gives it a nice sonata form. Home-away-home again. Always loved the way he sometimes repeats tracks at beginnings and ends.

 

It's repetitive and redundant. It's very much not like the sonata form:

 

Quote

The sonata form (also sonata-allegro form or first movement form) is a musical structure generally consisting of three main sections: an exposition, a development, and a recapitulation. […] The standard definition focuses on the thematic and harmonic organization of tonal materials that are presented in an exposition, elaborated and contrasted in a development and then resolved harmonically and thematically in a recapitulation.

 

The key point being the resolution in the recapitulation. It's very much not a repetition of the beginning. In many cases, the beginning contains all the seeds for the end (sometimes, the opening bars of the first movement of a symphony form the basis of the coda of the last movement, see e.g. Bruckner). But in between, the material is developed to arrive at the resolution.

 

If anything, it's more like a classical scherzo with trio in ABA form, where the scherzo part is repeated verbatim after the trio (see again Bruckner). But if we apply that form to a full JW score album, that would be an unusually elaborate scherzo part (itself somewhat approaching the sonata form) with an extremely long trio (the entire bulk of the album).

 

The only "classical" work I can think of that repeats the opening exactly is Orff's Carmina Burana.

 

(If you consider this too off-topic for the Patriot thread, feel free to move it elsewhere, but I figured it applies more to this soundtrack album than the other discussion about common reactions to any given new release)

[Thor 9,081]

I think it's very much a sonata idea anyway, even if it's the same track being used. It's not a classical symphony, after all. That's pretty unique to film scores. Sometimes, they don't really have natural "recapitulations", so you structure the tracks to give it that feeling. I think JW succeeds with this, in PATRIOT and elsewhere.

[Dr. Rick 1,272]

I, for one, always disliked JW's "reprise" era of the 1990s.  It just felt lazy to me and additional music could've been included in place of the reprise of the main theme.  

[Thor 9,081]

"The Reprise Era"....love that term, and love that "era". I always looked forward to the end of albums with those repeats.

[Marian Schedenig 9,718]

6 minutes ago, Thor said:

I think it's very much a sonata idea anyway, even if it's the same track being used. It's not a classical symphony, after all. That's pretty unique to film scores. Sometimes, they don't really have natural "recapitulations", so you structure the tracks to give it that feeling.

 

Yes, that's why he puts those elaborate concert versions in the end credits and at the end of the album. But a film score (at least the usual JW variety), even more than a symphony, is a narrative journey (and as usual, I'm talking about the musical form here, not the film). It is already made up of exposition, development, and recapitulation. Putting the exact recapitulation at the beginning of the album takes away that structure.

[Thor 9,081]

Just now, Marian Schedenig said:

Yes, that's why he puts those elaborate concert versions in the end credits and at the end of the album. But a film score (at least the usual JW variety), even more than a symphony, is a narrative journey (and as usual, I'm talking about the musical form here, not the film). It is already made up of exposition, development, and recapitulation. Putting the exact recapitulation at the beginning of the album takes away that structure.

 

I consider them "overtures" of sort (again, not perhaps in the strict classical sense, but in the idea sense). THE PATRIOT also has it.

[enderdrag64 1,148]

I find The Patriot's repeat slightly more forgiveable because at least the repeat has a coda so it's not an exact copy. It still wastes 6 minutes of space that could have been better allocated elsewhere though 

[crumbs 15,246]

8 minutes ago, enderdrag64 said:

I find The Patriot's repeat slightly more forgiveable because at least the repeat has a coda so it's not an exact copy. It still wastes 6 minutes of space that could have been better allocated elsewhere though 

 

Realistically though, nothing would've been added in its place. The album would've just been 6 minutes shorter if he dropped the first track. 

 

From memory POA, Tintin and ROTS all had an additional track(s) in early versions of their OSTs, but they were ultimately omitted without anything added in their place.

[BB-8 4,441]

So when and where can this be pre-ordered?

[Holko 11,054]

On the date that's in the first post, from the company that's in the title.

[BB-8 4,441]

3 minutes ago, Holko said:

On the date that's in the first post, from the company that's in the title.

So the release date is not the date of shipment?

[enderdrag64 1,148]

6 minutes ago, crumbs said:

From memory POA, Tintin and ROTS all had an additional track(s) in early versions of their OSTs, but they were ultimately omitted without anything added in their place.

Not entirely true for ROTS at least, the original tracklist had 2 extra tracks: The Reunion of Anakin and Padme, and I Am The Senate, but was also missing Grievous and the Droids

[Jay 41,255]

1 hour ago, BB-8 said:

So when and where can this be pre-ordered?

 

Intrada always releases new music on Tuesdays, which actually means they make the order page live on Monday evenings after they're done shipping for the day.

 

However, this release was announced as having a Monday release date, which is unusual for them, so I don't know if that means it will be available to order Sunday evening, or on Monday evening like normal, and Roger just put the Monday date in his post instead of the Tuesday date like he has always done before.  I'm guessing it will go up for sale Monday evening, and Roger just accidentally typed 20 instead of 21 into his post.

 

1 hour ago, BB-8 said:

So the release date is not the date of shipment?

 

None of the specialty labels do pre-orders.  Sometimes when a title goes up for sale, there's a little message saying it's not actually shipping until X days later, but that's always something unplanned.

[Jurassic Shark 14,205]

1 hour ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

It's repetitive and redundant. It's very much not like the sonata form:

 

 

The key point being the resolution in the recapitulation. It's very much not a repetition of the beginning. In many cases, the beginning contains all the seeds for the end (sometimes, the opening bars of the first movement of a symphony form the basis of the coda of the last movement, see e.g. Bruckner). But in between, the material is developed to arrive at the resolution.

 

If anything, it's more like a classical scherzo with trio in ABA form, where the scherzo part is repeated verbatim after the trio (see again Bruckner). But if we apply that form to a full JW score album, that would be an unusually elaborate scherzo part (itself somewhat approaching the sonata form) with an extremely long trio (the entire bulk of the album).

 

The only "classical" work I can think of that repeats the opening exactly is Orff's Carmina Burana.

 

(If you consider this too off-topic for the Patriot thread, feel free to move it elsewhere, but I figured it applies more to this soundtrack album than the other discussion about common reactions to any given new release)

 

I'd rather compare to the "clean" sonata-allegro form of the classical era. If you look at a Mozart symphony or piano sonata, the recapitulation of the first movement is quite similar to its exposition. 

Lady Jane.

[Meredith McKay 7,340]

4 hours ago, Thor said:

"The Reprise Era"....love that term, and love that "era". I always looked forward to the end of albums with those repeats.

Pssst, you know, if you press play on the CD player right after the album ends, you get the same effect!

[GerateWohl 5,578]

By the way, currently listening to the OST. This is really a great score and I can't wait to listen to the whole score.

 

I confess, recently I listened less and less to John Williams and more to other composers. Because I think, I know everything inside out. But then , when I put on again a John Williams score I remember again, why I started this hobby and got so excited about film scores.

He is really the best!

[Jurassic Shark 14,205]

I hope the expanded score's mix of the main theme tones down the hyperactive flutes. I've always found them too loud on the OST.

 

2 hours ago, Thor said:

"The Reprise Era"....love that term, and love that "era". I always looked forward to the end of albums with those repeats.

 

[Muad'Dib 1,895]

I like the idea of the reprises, but I don't like the fact that 99% of the time it was the same exact track as before, same take and everything... If it was a different arragement or a different take, well, that's different and it keeps the sort of "symphonic" idea.

 

I do make an exception for Mischief Managed! on POA because, despite being the same tracks we heard before, the suite works really well and it's a great track to go when I want to listen to a sort of popurri of a score I adore.

 

Anyways... Despite not being super familiar with The Patriot's score outside of the main theme and some particular tracks, an expanded release of a lesser-known JW score is always welcome. Bring it on!

[enderdrag64 1,148]

I listened to a bit of the OST yesterday to refresh my memory and I was struck by how much it reminded me of Amistad

[Jurassic Shark 14,205]

They're by the same composer. 

[Richard P 4,517]

8 minutes ago, Muad'Dib said:

I like the idea of the reprises, but I don't like the fact that 99% of the time it was the same exact track as before, same take and everything... If it was a different arragement or a different take, well, that's different and it keeps the sort of "symphonic" idea.

 

I do make an exception for Mischief Managed! on POA because, despite being the same tracks we heard before, the suite works really well and it's a great track to go when I want to listen to a sort of popurri of a score I adore.

 

Two versions with some different orchestrations, or one with a soloist and one without - I agree that something to vary the two could be nice.

 

Mischief Managed is a weird one by JWFan standards, because the majority is an edited suite, right? It flows reasonably well, I suppose, but in terms of repeating material I do think it's a poor use of space. Were it not included on the album (hence JW-sanctioned), surely it would be dismissed as a typical editor job? Actually, the only editorial thing I think the album does well is a couple of cue combos and Window to the Past.

[Dr. Rick 1,272]

1 hour ago, Muad'Dib said:

I like the idea of the reprises, but I don't like the fact that 99% of the time it was the same exact track as before, same take and everything... If it was a different arragement or a different take, well, that's different and it keeps the sort of "symphonic" idea.

 

I do make an exception for Mischief Managed! on POA because, despite being the same tracks we heard before, the suite works really well and it's a great track to go when I want to listen to a sort of popurri of a score I adore.

 

Anyways... Despite not being super familiar with The Patriot's score outside of the main theme and some particular tracks, an expanded release of a lesser-known JW score is always welcome. Bring it on!

 

I did a quick count of my OSTs and came up with 11 that had a reprise at the end, all during the 90s and 00s. 

[bruckhorn 123]

The 20th.  The day I'm getting my root re-re-canal.  What are the chances I remember to check out the sound clips?

 

Should be able to get the shipment in time for my birthday (the day between John's and Jerry's).

[Once 768]

10 hours ago, crumbs said:

From memory POA, Tintin and ROTS all had an additional track(s) in early versions of their OSTs, but they were ultimately omitted without anything added in their place.

I remember the "Picking Pockets" track from Tintin, but what was omitted from the initial Azkaban track list?

[Meredith McKay 7,340]

1 hour ago, Once said:

I remember the "Picking Pockets" track from Tintin, but what was omitted from the initial Azkaban track list?

Shrieking Shack, and some stuff was cut from Knight Bus IIRC.

[crumbs 15,246]

11 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

Not entirely true for ROTS at least, the original tracklist had 2 extra tracks: The Reunion of Anakin and Padme, and I Am The Senate, but was also missing Grievous and the Droids

 

Interesting, wasn't aware of that! Add those two tracks + Padme's Funeral and that OST is hugely improved.

[enderdrag64 1,148]

56 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Interesting, wasn't aware of that! Add those two tracks + Padme's Funeral and that OST is hugely improved.

[Amer 2,393]

To me it looks as  The 20th date is intentional to either commemorate the swearing in of the US President or to revive a Patriotic feeling amongst the US Citizens Democratic or Republican.

 

 

[A. A. Ron 2,160]

Well that ought to make Mel Gibson happy at the very least.

[Meredith McKay 7,340]

2 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

Man, imagine if that Anakin and Padme track included other cues as well, like Anakin and Padme on Mustafar.

[Davis 3,727]

1 hour ago, A. A. Ron said:

Well that ought to make Mel Gibson happy at the very least.

Considering that his house has just burnt down, I somehow doubt it.

[Lady Dimitrescu 9,304]

The school burnt down six years ago.

[crumbs 15,246]

4 hours ago, Doo_liss said:

Man, imagine if that Anakin and Padme track included other cues as well, like Anakin and Padme on Mustafar.

 

That's a great point, do we know for sure which Anakin/Padme "reunion" cue track 5 referred to? Because there's clearly 2 in the film and they're drastically different.

 

Also just noticed Anakin's Betrayal was track 2 in this version of the album, so if track 5 was Padme's Visit it would've made sense as a reprise of the Betrayal theme (as it stands, that theme is standalone to one track on the album).

[Meredith McKay 7,340]

6 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

That's a great point, do we know for sure which Anakin/Padme "reunion" cue track 5 referred to? Because there's clearly 2 in the film and they're drastically different.

 

Also just noticed Anakin's Betrayal was track 2 in this version of the album, so if track 5 was Padme's Visit it would've made sense as a reprise of the Betrayal theme (as it stands, that theme is standalone to one track on the album).

Here's a quick idea of how it could have been:

 

 

A little rough, but Ramiro or Ken would probably have been able to make it work

[Amer 2,393]

Does anyone remember an interview with Williams on CNN news segment that came on the heals of the The Phantom Menace release (or was it Angela's Ashes?) where he actually played on piano to demonstrate his next film project the secondary motif theme From THE PATRIOT?

 

I had taped it off on my VCR but today those won't be salvageable. So maybe it's online somewhere excerpted?

 

Any clues?

 

 

[Holko 11,054]

You reminded me that YT recommended this to me: Jason Isaacs is asked what makes one movie better than another, after listing a few things like the script and talking about how good the on set atmosphere was, he suddenly, unprompted, adds "You need John Williams as well, obviously." Contrast with for example Alan Rickman's diary about HP1.

 

[Brando 2,319]

8 hours ago, Holko said:

Contrast with for example Alan Rickman's diary about HP1.

I’ve heard something about this before a long time ago but I don’t know specifically what he said about the music, is there something that mentions this?

[Quppa 217]

28 minutes ago, Brando said:

I’ve heard something about this before a long time ago but I don’t know specifically what he said about the music, is there something that mentions this?

 

[Naïve Old Fart 11,026]

Are any of the Arnold demos available?

Do we know how much music he composed, and if it was reused?

[Quppa 217]

5 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Do we know how much music he composed, and if it was reused?

https://cnmsarchive.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/david-arnold-on-zoolander-and-the-musketeer/

 

Some interesting info in this interview with Arnold:

Quote

Now we’re coming to the sensitive one I’ve got to ask you about, THE PATRIOT. Now, the stories that you see floating around on the net were that, by all accounts, you were going to do THE PATRIOT…
Yeah, I’d written the whole score.

Now, my understanding is that you submitted some demos early in the process and basically for whatever reasons the demos didn’t quite hit with Dean or Roland or the studio, and then somewhere in the process they said, “We’re going to go get John Williams”. Is that pretty much the way it happened, from your perspective?
It was very unusual, because the way that film was developing, Dean phoned me when they got the script, a long time ago, and he was screaming on the phone, saying “This is it! This is the one! This is the one we’ve been waiting for! You’re on!” They were quite a ways into shooting and I think they were getting to the point where they were getting into over-budget difficulties, and I started getting phone calls from Dean and Roland where they were saying “do you still want to do this film?” And I was going, yeah, of course I do! And then another phone call a few weeks later, “Well, we’re going to have to hear some demos first…”
I’d done three movies with them and I’ve never done that before! So I said, okay… I’d also heard, before I’d even written anything, that the studio had put out inquiries to John Williams and James Horner, independently of Dean and Roland. One of the producers had worked with John on SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, so he’s going, “look, we can get John Williams – why do you want to stay with Arnold when you can get John Williams?”
I think they were under a lot of budgetary pressure. I think the studio was very keen on getting someone with obviously such a huge marquee value as John, ho tends not to put his name to things that aren’t first rate, and as far as I’m concerned very rarely ails to deliver something quite astonishing. So I felt, I’ve got nothing to lose, so I might as well send them his demo that I did. I think it was one of the best thing’s I’d ever written. And virtually immediately I hat a phone call from Dean, saying “look, we haven’t really connected with it, so we’re going to go with John Williams.” I mean, you don’t get a demo and on the same day call up John Williams and have him agree to do the film at the drop of a hat. Obviously, some other things had been going on, and I wasn’t particularly surprised. I was a little disappointed, perhaps, in the way that it was handled, but to be passed up for him certainly isn’t an insult!

 

[Richard P 4,517]

So when he says "Yeah, I’d written the whole score."... I assume based on what he says after, that he's saying that the rumours/reports were that he'd written the whole score. Sounds from the main answer like he wrote a synth demo.

 

I could've sworn I read a report that suggested Emmerich/Devlin got it into their heads that they had Oscar material, and wanted Williams based on that (it seems not to be a Clemmenson-based misconception). But the above suggests it was more of a studio-level thing in response to the budget difficulties. Likely a bit of both.

 

However, it sounds like it was a desire to have a composer of Williams' stature on board, more than anything fundamentally wrong with what Arnold might've composed. He knocked patriotism out of the park for ID4, so this one would seem right up his street, and a composer who's enthusiastic about the project... what more could a director/producer want?

[Lady Dimitrescu 9,304]

Users is what they are. They're never your real friends, these people.