Hans Zimmer & Lisa Gerrard - GLADIATOR - 25th Anniversary 3-CD Expanded Edition from La-La Land Records

[Richard P 4,752]

Some further thoughts on this.

 

The main score program is just wonderful - lots of edited-out material restored, some film versions, and a good half a dozen cues (some of which were under dialogue/edited on the MMF) that are personal highlights - To Marrakesh, Home, the full Battle, Barbarian Horde and Slaves To Rome cues, the 'plot' material nearer the end, and a few more 'Sister Theme' variations. I always found the final third of the score a little uneven with some repeated ideas, but having the entire score like this is to be treasured. I specifically checked out a few tracks specifically for film takes, and all present and correct! I would've been so disappointed had the film ending of The Battle not been present, and I was a bit worried about whether the editors had dialed out Gerrard - I think the cue works better with just strings.

 

The third disc does a wonderful job of tidying up the MMF album and presenting those tracks properly, along with the new material. I was convinced that I'd listen to this disc and decide to drop maybe half a dozen tracks - a lot of the time some alternates just sound too similar to the film versions, or 5 seconds are different, or the composer's initial noodlings are just dull meanderings, or don't resemble the final score enough to be of interest. But not here - for the Sketchbook section it's nice to hear the origins of the 'merciful' theme, the 'wailing' theme, the opening music, and Lucilla's theme. I wonder why the first minute of 'After The War' made it onto the MMF, but not the rest? Such a random, brief inclusion. The two To Marrakesh alternates are my highlights from the alternates that we didn't already have.

 

As for the crossfades, I think this works most of the time - one exception I think being Flashback to Elysium, where I'd have preferred to hear the gentle opening of Elysium by itself. I've decided to join most of these gapless sequences - a few of the cut up tracks on the OST never made much sense to me, given the lack of a notable change in tone that a track change usually marks.

 

Overall, amazing release!

[bollemanneke 3,999]

Is it me or is the crossfade between Flashback and Elysium a bit off? Not complaining though as I don't care for the latter cue.

[Richard P 4,752]

It's a very loud cue to a very quiet cue, with a rather sudden transition - that's why it's the one crossfade on the set that I was a bit iffy over. I'll get used to it.

[Stéphane Humez 520]

36 minutes ago, Richard P said:

It's a very loud cue to a very quiet cue, with a rather sudden transition - that's why it's the one crossfade on the set that I was a bit iffy over. I'll get used to it.

 

You wanna know a secret ?

It's less an artistic choice than it is a cosmetic cover-up.

HZ's programming is usually top notch, you can blame him for many things but not THAT part of a score. But on Gladiator, Klaus' cues are sometimes extremely weird and cheap.

And Elysium, the first few seconds of the cue are... horrible. It sounds like the cue's opening is an awful mp3 @96 transcode with artifacts ! And it comes from how Klaus used his samples.

 

So it was better to hide it... The funny thing is whoever compiled the 2000 album KNEW that, and did the same thing crossfading Elysium with Am I Not Merciful? ! 

 

 

So, it's not perfect, but trust me it was worse !

[crocodile 9,167]

Anyway, my set arrived today:

 

 

Karol 

[paleo 78]

It will probably take  a while for my copy to arrive. Shouldn't have ordered it alongside Dark Crystal, which was currently out of stock. In general, this hobby has become epically expensive.... I had the choice between paying 56 (!) € for the set or 40 (!) $ for shipping.

[WampaRat 1,768]

5 hours ago, Richard P said:

So, three films got me into scores, back in 2000/2001.

 

All are now expanded  Took just four years for the first, 17 years for the second, and 24 for the last one!

 

Swap out HP for HOOK and we're the same!

Got my set last night and listened to the first disc while working late. It's fantastic. It's like meeting an old friend who's thriving in life. I loved reading the liner notes.

Interesting that Spielberg was initially hesitant about Gerrard's contributions. I know Gladiator made the "wailing female vocal" trope skyrocket in popularity. But I don't think it was unheard of at that time. Spielberg's own Amistad has quite a few female vocals in that score. And he was a big fan of Zimmer's Peacemaker, which also had some vocals. Wonder what made him skittish at first?

Speaking of the vocals, Lisa Gerrard truly is the MVP of this score. She has such a unique alto and really lent a much-needed feminine presence to what could have been a simple macho revenge film in sandals. Her matronly tone and unique phrasing set her apart from the dozens of similar film scores that followed. Listening to the "Opening Soldiers" sketch cue with Lisbeth Scott's vocals, for example, pulled me into another score entirely (Munich, Lair, Passion of the Christ). She's great. But doesn't have that layer of mysticism that Lisa brought to it.
Often imitated. Never equaled. 

PS- Im so accustomed to hearing the dialogue in cues like "A Soldiers Death - Home" and "I Salute You" that my brain started running those lines automatically.

"The colosseum...ooooh you should SEE the colosseum, Spainard..."

This set is fantastic. Thank you to all those involved in it's production!

[Richard P 4,752]

You know, I'll defend how the More Music album was constructed in terms of the selection and placement of dialog - it's not just quickly slapped on, and the sequencing does have thought behind it. But because of that dialogue and its heavy use of sketchbook and alternate material, it is no more than a film keepsake. (largely the same by which the 2nd Braveheart volume is not a substitute for LLL's edition)

 

And yes, very interesting to read about how Gerrard eventually came on after hesitation, The Wheat and Elysium really owe their character to her, and some of the quieter cues with that echoey string instrument combine with her voice to create a sound that's somehow ancient yet relatable in tone. I also love how the ending to Now We Are Free combines the song element with the beautiful elegy-type sign-off with her vocals and strings.

 

I was surprised to learn that the opening cue (on this set and the film) is editorial - a last minute addition to add a new opening to the film, before the wheat. Might be taken from the After The War guitar variation (?) because it's got some atmospheric pads I don't hear in After The War from the main program. If ever there were a perfect case for a film reconstruction - who said composers never give their blessing to things like that!

 

Despite a full disc of bonus material, it doesn't feel overwhelming, because the themes and ideas are interesting enough to warrant the exploration. I don't think there are a lot of scores that earn this sort of archival process. I kept just two alternate tracks from The Rock because I don't find those initial noodlings anywhere near as interesting. Probably not up for Thelma though - I found a few other score tracks on YT and they don't really have the structure and interest that the chase track has.

[Jay 42,355]

5 minutes ago, Richard P said:

I was surprised to learn that the opening cue is editorial - a last minute addition to add a new opening to the film, before the wheat. Might be taken from the After The War guitar variation (?)

 

hans-zimmer.com always tells you exactly which cues are inside every OST track for all his albums under "Album Assembly" on the right

 

https://hans-zimmer.com/index.html?path=discography&id=175&project=755

 

 

[Richard P 4,752]

It says where the OST is from, yes, but the track on this set sounds a bit different to me, and there's a sound in a few places that I don't recognise from that take, which I do hear in the guitar variation from the sketchbook.

[Jay 42,355]

Ah I see, I misunderstood!

[WampaRat 1,768]

I agree. Great call on opening the album with "Opening/Fields", even if it was editorially created.
It really would have felt like something was missing, if  the album had just jumped right into "The Wheat" after sitting with the OST and film for 25 years. 

Heitor Pereira's acoustic guitar playing deserves a special shout-out too. From the echo-y string plucks to the foreboding "Spaniard motif", its a wonderful delicate color to this score. Its some of my favorite material in the whole album.

@Stéphane Humez, do you happen to know what language the choir is singing in the "Now We Are Free [Alternate 1]"? Or is it also made up like Gerrard's vocals? 

[Stéphane Humez 520]

It's all "Lisa made up" !

[Davis 3,949]

7 hours ago, Richard P said:

So, three films got me into scores, back in 2000/2001.

 

All are now expanded  Took just four years for the first, 17 years for the second, and 24 for the last one!

 

For me it was these.

[Meredith McKay 7,842]

44 minutes ago, Davis said:

For me it was these.

Davis, he said three films. that's four films. can't you count!?

 

 

[A. A. Ron 2,257]

I only just now found out that Lisa Gerrard's lyrics aren't actually lyrics but just random noises she makes and I really don't know how to feel about it.

[crocodile 9,167]

I started listening last night and finishing it this morning. It's a very long album! I am really enjoying it, glad to hear some new bits that flesh some ideas. Congratulations @Stéphane Humez and thank you!

 

To be perfectly honest, I wasn't exactly a fan of this score when it first came out. Not because of lack of enjoyment as such, but because I felt bit letdown everyone loved it and The Patriot by John Williams went overlooked somewhat. And, perhaps, because Filmtracks review told me to look down on it. I was an impressionable 15 year old then! Suppose same reason why I was told Horner's recycling was a force of evil. All of which is funny because the first score I ever experienced on album was The Lion King, and then there was The Peacemaker not long after in 1997 when my proper soundtrack collecting actually started for good. The latter I still adore and it does seem to anticipate some of the things in Gladiator. So I sort owe Zimmer a great deal in terms infecting me with this hobby (alongside Williams and Elfman).

 

Only later did it occur to me that I can enjoy multiple styles and approaches of film music and I don't have to choose. Who knew? 😆

 

I am hoping one of the future projects is Hannibal, another brilliant score by Zimmer that desperately needs an update. I love Anthony Hopkins' voice to bits but I don't need it on my album. 😉

 

Karol

[Pawel P. 820]

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

I only just now found out that Lisa Gerrard's lyrics aren't actually lyrics but just random noises she makes and I really don't know how to feel about it.

 

This is what she's always done, since the early days of Dead Can Dance. Her voice is her instrument and she carries a lot of messages and emotions without using specific words. In a truly unique way.

[crocodile 9,167]

I sometimes this is the way some artists do that and it's more about the articulation and feel, rather than the meaning. For example, when I was younger, I really enjoyed the music of progressive rock band King Crimson (I still do actually). But if you listen to their lyrics, they might come off as bit pretentious and, quite honestly, often feel like absolute drivel. But, to me, it always felt it's more about what they do with their voice rather than what the lyrics were actually saying. The voice is another instrument, and words are merely the way to perform it to create an emotional response.

 

Speaking of which, I am one of those people who, quite oddly, often doesn't often understand lyrics in songs. I just can't discern words unless I actually read them. The exceptions might be musicals where you absolutely have to follow the narrative. But, overall, I am lyrics-deaf. 

 

Karol

[Lady Dimitrescu 9,804]

I really thought it was some foreign language she was singing with "hahgh-rorrrrm, shagh-rorrrrm... hahgh-rorrrrm, shagh-lehhhhh"

[Davis 3,949]

I thought it was sanskrit or ancient greek. 

[Lady Dimitrescu 9,804]

Hearing all that in Mission Impossible 2 was weird.

[Bilbo 3,998]

2 hours ago, crocodile said:

I sometimes this is the way some artists do that and it's more about the articulation and feel, rather than the meaning. For example, when I was younger, I really enjoyed the music of progressive rock band King Crimson (I still do actually). But if you listen to their lyrics, they might come off as bit pretentious and, quite honestly, often feel like absolute drivel. But, to me, it always felt it's more about what they do with their voice rather than what the lyrics were actually saying. The voice is another instrument, and words are merely the way to perform it to create an emotional response.

 

Speaking of which, I am one of those people who, quite oddly, often doesn't often understand lyrics in songs. I just can't discern words unless I actually read them. The exceptions might be musicals where you absolutely have to follow the narrative. But, overall, I am lyrics-deaf. 

 

Karol

I actually prefer when choirs sing in a language I don’t understand. 
 

I just can’t listen to the version of Hogwarts Forever with lyrics. It makes my skin crawl. 
 

but if it was in Latin? Fire away. 
 

Something Wicked This Way Comes is fine because it’s just nonsense anyway. 

[Richard P 4,752]

I prefer that too - it feels more mysterious and you don't get distracted from the music by analysing or disliking the lyrics.

[Meredith McKay 7,842]

Wordless: eh

Humming: woah

English: WOAH

Un-Understandable Language: WOAAAAHHHH!!!!

[Lady Dimitrescu 9,804]

8 minutes ago, Richard P said:

I prefer that too - it feels more mysterious and you don't get distracted from the music by analysing or disliking the lyrics.

 

Ave Satani

[Davis 3,949]

[Richard P 4,752]

8 hours ago, crocodile said:

All of which is funny because the first score I ever experienced on album was The Lion King, and then there was The Peacemaker not long after in 1997 when my proper soundtrack collecting actually started for good. The latter I still adore and it does seem to anticipate some of the things in Gladiator. So I sort owe Zimmer a great deal in terms infecting me with this hobby (alongside Williams and Elfman).

 

There's something about this Zimmer era that is polarising for me in terms of style. I like The Rock but not really any other of his scores from that period (The Thin Red Line, but the OST is enough for me, and a few tracks from Pearl Harbor) and I really have to fast forward to the mid 00s to find his next that I really find interesting.

 

With Gladiator he had to work within a (invented or otherwise) specific culture with some historical acknowledgement, and that changed something about his whole approach to the score. All I know is that when I got the OST and then watched the film on DVD,  started noticing music all over the place that I wanted. It's definitely a factor that the film is of a very different type to what he was typically scoring in that period. I certainly get drawn to a lot of the ethnic cues such as To Marrakesh and Home, and any piece that creates a mood - an ambience that's extremely unique to that film. I consider myself very lucky that of all the huge Zimmer scores waiting to be expanded, this one was doable.

 

On that logic, why does Last Samurai not do more for me? Perhaps if I'd seen the film at the right time, maybe I'd like it more, but I find a selection from the OST more than sufficient.

[WampaRat 1,768]

8 hours ago, crocodile said:

And, perhaps, because Filmtracks review told me to look down on it. I was an impressionable 15 year old then!

Ah. I remember going to CC's site a TON in junior high when I first got into collecting scores. His reviews also shaped my opinions for a while. If it was a large orchestral score with a lot of themes is was generally considered 4 stars. If the themes weren't clear in their narrative approach and there were too many styles going on, it was considered a mess. (Can't wait for his take on Sinners ) That's probably too reductive of his opinions, but that's how it seemed to me. I didn't understand (and frankly still don't) why he finds Gladiator so meh yet gives The Peacemaker four stars. For me, there's a lot more sonic variety/colors/themes in Gladiator than Peacemaker, which I have a tough time getting through after 30 minutes. But I know he's not alone in that opinion. I still enjoy reading reviews over there from time to time. Some of my favorite scores were discovered due to his recommendations. 

[Richard P 4,752]

The only consistency Clemmenson has is orchestra = good, Zimmer or clone = bad

 

He's fantastic at pointing out themes and how they develop throughout a score, I just think he's absolutely terrible at forming an objective opinion on the quality of a score. You sort of need to be able to do both, ideally.

[WampaRat 1,768]

For those of you who have listened to the set, have you noticed any bass distortion? Its most likely my crappy headphones and the settings in my car speakers. But just thought Id check...

[bollemanneke 3,999]

51 minutes ago, Richard P said:

The only consistency Clemmenson has is orchestra = good, Zimmer or clone = bad

 

He's fantastic at pointing out themes and how they develop throughout a score, I just think he's absolutely terrible at forming an objective opinion on the quality of a score. You sort of need to be able to do both, ideally.

I lost patience with him. He insists on this stupid idea that a composer is 100% responsible for a score. Don't know what world he lives in, but directors are still there too. That and this obsession with dismissing anything Zimmer does. I just look at him for album situations.

[Meredith McKay 7,842]

Just now, bollemanneke said:

I lost patience with him. He insists on this stupid idea that a composer is 100% responsible for a score. Don't know what world he lives in, but directors are still there too. That and this obsession with dismissing anything Zimmer does. I just look at him for album situations.

"Completely fails to" gets on my nerves.

[Bilbo 3,998]

Got my copy. Rewatched the film last night for the first time in years. Instantly remembered why it’s one of my favourites. Looking forward to diving into the score at some point over the weekend. 

[Edmilson 10,433]

I haven't listened to this score in over a decade. So listening to a complete presentation now was a revelatory experience. It was one of the first scores I listened to it back as a teen when I was beginning my journey into listening to film music, I thought it was good but The Last Samurai was better.

 

Now, as a more experienced listener, it's nice to see how this score fits into the context of Zimmer's trajectory. He wanted to do something more "classical music" style despite his pop/rock background (not a criticism), and the merge between the style he was developing in the 90s (The Lion King, The Rock, Crimson Tide, etc) with something more classical in nature resulted in something very interesting. Say what you will about Zimmer but one thing that can't be denied is his courage to do something completely different and risky for him if he thinks this is what the movie needs.

 

I have a question though for @Stéphane Humez: what was the creative proccess behind Barbarian Horde? Both it and The Battle are based in Zimmer's Gladiator Waltz demo. But while The Battle is credited just to Zimmer (so he just reworked his demo to fit the scene), Barbarian Horde is credited to him and Nick Glennie-Smith. 

 

What exactly did NGS do for this cue? Did he took the suite and made it fit the movie? Is it credited to both HZ and NGS because HZ wrote the suite and Nick arranged it for the context of the scene? Also: is this usually how he works with his team of additional composers? Like, he gives them his demo material and they are tasked with making those suites (written freely and not to the picture) become film cues?

[Stéphane Humez 520]

In the case of Barbarian Horde, it really is HZ's Gladiator Waltz suite temped in the film, and Nick adapted it to the scene.

The first 5 minutes of the track REALLY sound like Nick, he definitely wrote that. The rest is just slight arranging of HZ's suite.

Nick only got cuesheet credit for that track, but I know he wrote/arranged about 3 or 4 other cues. If you ask me, I Salute You, The Greatness Of Rome, Slaves To Rome and Walk To Colosseum have all Nick in them, in my opinion.

The theme suite process really depends on the projects.

In the case of Man Of Steel, Hans wrote that big 32 min "New Superman Suite" on his own. Then he tasked his team to take different segments from that suite and expand them on their own, see what they could come up with. Tom Holkenborg lifted the whole Zod / Arcade themes from that. Atli took a more heroic "Superman & Lois" approach with his "Superman Theme" (unfortunately unreleased) and basically made a tiny Hans segment become Lois' theme. Steve Mazzaro focused more on a guitar "Smallville / Clark Kent" kind of thing (track Earth). 

Same approach worked for POTC 2 & 3.

[Demondm810 434]

Very cool insight @Stéphane Humez  Love to hear it

[Ninoners 36]

Just got my copy a few days ago and have listened to the score presentation all the way through twice.

 

Agree with all the previous comments about the sound quality and overall presentation-- both are superb.

 

If I have a nitpick, it's with the liner notes.  Don't get me wrong, the information given is absolutely interesting.  I just wish there was a little more commentary on the themes and how they fit into the score.  Gladiator is very familiar to me, but not a score I know a ton about like Star Wars, or well documented like Shore's Middle Earth film scores.  Even in the included interview with Zimmer, he references the "main theme", but what IS the main theme?  Most people seem to say it's the melody from "Honor Him", but occasionally some others refer to the melody that opens "The Battle".  Commodus' theme is easy enough to identify, but what about that one from "Win the Crowd?  I associate it with Proximo, but does it have a proper name?

 

Again, I didn't need 15 pages, but maybe a few paragraphs about it.

 

Still, it's a minor quibble.

[Richard P 4,752]

Yes, I would've loved to see a thematic outline and brief description of where they appear, and maybe a bit more commentary on the origin of the sketchbook/alternates. I think I anticipated a bit more of this sort of thing given the size of the booklet.

 

I've had bits of this this constantly playing for the last week or so, and finally did a near-enough play through of disc 3. I'm really loving After The War (Guitar Variation) particularly, and Sister Theme has subtly different orchestration that makes me go back to it.

[WampaRat 1,768]

One of my favorite themes in this work is the "Strength and Honor" theme from the OST/"Win The Crowd". It's a real simple, almost Trevor Jones-like theme with some beautiful woodwinds pulsing around as it grows around 0:54. It's variation with the tribal percussion in the "To Marrakesh" Alternate is a real delight. I prefer it over the film version. And it's march-like rendition in "Walk To Colosseum" is a great discovery on this release.
I can see why Hans dipped back into the same well for the "Knight's March" idea on his King Arthur score a few years later. 

[Ninoners 36]

1 hour ago, WampaRat said:

One of my favorite themes in this work is the "Strength and Honor" theme from the OST/"Win The Crowd". It's a real simple, almost Trevor Jones-like theme with some beautiful woodwinds pulsing around as it grows around 0:54.

Yes, that one is so effective.  That's the one I have always associated with Proximo, so much that in my head canon I was calling it "Proximo's Theme".  It evokes something proud but there's a sadness to it.  I know this score is far older, but it reminds me of some of the Dwarven music from the The Hobbit movies.  

[WampaRat 1,768]

@Stéphane Humez, There's a bit of source music near the beginning of the movie where Maximus is washing the blood off his hands in the camp after the battle right before the senators and Commodus talk to him about his plans after the war. Kind of a chimes and chanting sort of thing. Was that something written by Zimmer's team? Or something licensed? Can't find a specific clip online otherwise I'd share it here for reference.

Also with the  "Soldier's Death - Home" cue, there's a furious little Spanish guitar solo that is punctuated with big orchestral hits at 1:19-1:30. But in the film, it's just the guitar strumming rather than the orchestra hitting. Was that just an editorial/Ridley tinker? Or was it an alternate cue that didn't get released?

[Stéphane Humez 520]

They are licenced from the artist Synaulia, both tracks :

 

 

 

As for A Soldier's Death, it's just typical music editing, some stems were muted.

[WampaRat 1,768]

Oh sweet! Thanks for sharing these.
Was this one of the CD's Hans tossed in the bin when they said "This is the music of ancient Rome!" ? 

[Richard P 4,752]

If that was someone's idea of a score for this film, the bin is the correct place 

 

I love Etruria however - I added it as a bonus track years ago, it works so well in that scene as a bit of a relaxed/celebratory interlude after the hell of the battle, but before the snowy morning.

[Stark 682]

Do we expect this release to sell out as quickly as Reivers? I don't want to spend too much money right now!

[WampaRat 1,768]

Man. The vocal samples at the end of "I Salute You" and in "Six Man Fight" are just so badass. I love that female chanting. Its really eerie and otherworldly. Similar to some of Hans' flavors in WW84 and a few of the Robert Langdon movies.

[Brando 2,459]

22 hours ago, WampaRat said:

@Stéphane Humez, There's a bit of source music near the beginning of the movie where Maximus is washing the blood off his hands in the camp after the battle right before the senators and Commodus talk to him about his plans after the war. Kind of a chimes and chanting sort of thing. Was that something written by Zimmer's team? Or something licensed? Can't find a specific clip online otherwise I'd share it here for reference.

Also with the  "Soldier's Death - Home" cue, there's a furious little Spanish guitar solo that is punctuated with big orchestral hits at 1:19-1:30. But in the film, it's just the guitar strumming rather than the orchestra hitting. Was that just an editorial/Ridley tinker? Or was it an alternate cue that didn't get released?

I just want to point out, these 2 source cues are probably credited in the end credits (unless they aren’t, I can’t remember), and IMDb is pretty good at listing licensed music in the “soundtracks” section of the film info. Unfortunately for a film like Raiders of the Lost Ark, the 4 or 5 source cues heard in the Cairo sequence aren’t listed.

[WampaRat 1,768]

Oh good to know! Nice resource @Brando!

[Trope 1,185]

Finally, it's arrived!!!! Ordered day 1 from Intrada and it's finally made its way to Australia. Honestly, this is my most anticipated release in a long time. It's got to be one of Hans' top 5 scores IMO. I cannot wait to sit down and listen to this all the way through this evening!