Is symphony the highest musical accomplishment?

[filmmusic 2,777]

I had an exchange of comments with a facebook friend who is mainly a film score fan but listens to classical music too (he is here too by the way, but only has a couple of posts).

The conversation started due to the Guardian article with the known comment of Williams.

So, this friend claims basically that symphony is the highest musical accomplishment, the most perfect thing that exists in music, the most difficult and demanding than any other music, even symphonic poems, or ballet music, which are lesser.

I told him that symphony is just a musical form, maybe more tight-knit in comparison to others, and a ballet music (eg. The Rite of Spring) can be equally (or more) demanding and "difficult".

He insists (like saying The Rite of Spring, however great, can't be compared to symphonies of Brahms, Schubert etc.) and says that this is the opinion of all the musicians of classical music!

While this controversial opinion is absolute, I didn't continue to argue, because it wouldn't lead to anything. Not at least at facebook.

So, what do you think?

I would be interested too in the opinions of the musicologists of this site, who are classically trained. I'm afraid I only know of @Falstaft and @Ludwig.

[Yavar Moradi 4,002]

This is a common opinion among certain classical music snobs... but that doesn't mean it's correct. Certainly in the world of "art music" there are also many who would say that Wagner's operas are the epitome of musical accomplishment, and far beyond any mere symphony (certainly, Wagner's own symphonies are merely okay).

 

As someone who has worked in the classical music world for two decades, I've heard every single snobby opinion imaginable and I really don't have much patience or respect for it. I've heard plenty of symphonies that are certainly not "high art", and plenty of film scores that certainly are. There are common strengths and weaknesses to all forms, and it really depends on what you're looking for. Arguing that one musical art form is inherently "the most perfect thing that exists in music" is silly.

 

Yavar

[Edmilson 11,121]

[Glóin the Dark 1,666]

1 hour ago, filmmusic said:

He insists (like saying The Rite of Spring, however great, can't be compared to symphonies of Brahms, Schubert etc.) and says that this is the opinion of all the musicians of classical music!

 

I don't know these musicians personally, but I'm going to go out on a limb and give you a cast iron guarantee that not all of them think The Rite of Spring isn't as good as the symphonies of Brahms and Schubert. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a plurality liked it best.

 

A problem with the title question is that the definition of "symphony" is, at best, very vague. There are pieces that are called symphonies which bear little resemblance to the established form, and other pieces which could reasonably be viewed as symphonies but are not labelled as such. I don't think it's just pedantry or semantics to point this out; it gets at the fact that the possible musical forms constitute a continuum rather than a discrete set, which, I feel, makes the notion of one of those forms being decisively optimal rather implausible at the outset.

 

There are certain attributes and virtues which are (arguably, at least) fostered more thoroughly in the symphonic sphere than in the various other established (and named) forms of orchestral music, and it's not an accident that one finds the symphony proclaimed as the highest form much more often than, say, the capriccio. Confronted with the multiple choice question "Which of the following musical forms represents the highest accomplishment?", and with no "None" option, "Symphony" would be my choice and, I expect, would probably be the choice of a majority of musicians and of classical music listeners. "None" would be the correct answer.

 

In any case, this non-symphony is the highest musical accomplishment. 

 

(Afterthought: I meant to mention this but it didn't really fit anywhere else—"highest accomplishment" can be taken to refer to the value of the work as a musical experience for the listener or as a test/challenge that the composer has undertaken with certain rules and objectives. I think the answer is the same either way.)

[blondheim 1,414]

Obviously, there is no perfect art form. I might personally think a novel is a purer experience than a film, but that’s just like my opinion, man.

So along those lines, I do think there is something to be said for a well-reasoned musical argument presented without any distractions. But to say symphonies are the ultimate form of musical expression is taking it a little far, I think.

[Bellosh 4,369]

music peaked with Beethoven, so probably

[bruce marshall 1,959]

1 minute ago, Bellosh said:

music peaked with Bach, so probably

Corrected

[Bellosh 4,369]

Symphony No. 9 would like a word with you

[Tom 6,117]

Many consider Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, which is obviously not a symphony, to be his best work.  

[mstrox 7,286]

Is Novel the highest accomplishment in writing?  Is Filet Mignon the highest accomplishment in food?  You can write a bad book and you can burn your steak, and so too can you create a bad symphony.

[Naïve Old Fart 12,248]

As far as I know, Handel didn't compose a single symphony, yet MESSIAH is among the most popular, greatest, and famous pieces of classical music, ever.

It just goes to show.

[bruce marshall 1,959]

"Yes"

     - Jurassic Shark

   

3 hours ago, Bellosh said:

Symphony No. 9 would like a word with you

Not a bad piece of music.

[Naïve Old Fart 12,248]

Just now, bruce marshall said:

"Yes"

 

CLOSE TO THE EDGE is modern classical music.

Discuss.

[bruce marshall 1,959]

Just now, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

CLOSE TO THE EDGE is modern classical music.

Discuss.

Rick Wakeman is the poor man's Keith Emerson.

Not up for discussion or debate

[Naïve Old Fart 12,248]

Tony Banks beats them both, to a pulp.

End of.

[Mr. Hooper 7,205]

2 hours ago, mstrox said:

Is Filet Mignon the highest accomplishment in food?

I'll take a New York strip steak over filet mignon any day.

 

Medium rare.

[GerateWohl 6,233]

At such questions you have to distinguish between the form itself and the execution.

Is symphony as a pure form or template the most perfect form? I am no expert here, but I guess to a certain degree it is also a matter of taste. Of course you need a certain set of skills to write a symphony.

Apart from that I am sure there are a lot of bad symphonies. But you just rarely hear about them because they are not played very often by major orchestras. But that doesn't mean, they don't exists or that they have not been composed by notable composers.

 

Anyway, I would believe someone who knows his classical music that a symphony might be one of the most challenging musical form.

On the other hand, when I look at the definition from Wikipedia of the four movement symphony:

 

I.   An opening sonata or allegro
II.  A slow movement, such as andante
III. A minuet or scherzo with trio
IV.  An allegro, rondo, or sonata

 

it looks like it is a collection of forms that also exist on their own. 

 

 

[mstrox 7,286]

1 hour ago, Mr. Hooper said:

I'll take a New York strip steak over filet mignon any day.

 

Medium rare.

I’ll just have the tofu - but my point stands!

[Chen G. 5,544]

9 hours ago, filmmusic said:

So, this friend claims basically that symphony is the highest musical accomplishment, the most perfect thing that exists in music, the most difficult and demanding than any other music, even symphonic poems, or ballet music, which are lesser.

 

Is your friend called Eduard Hanslick?

 

Because this gets us into The War of the Romantics, which is to say: is music in symphonies better for being "pure", as compared to tone poems or opera and ballet? Or is music actually better when it is - I don't want to say subservient to, but let's say "placed in the framework of" - a drama?

 

Personally, I'm always at a little loss for words at these abstractly-aesthetic debates. For my personal tastes, I much prefer to have music be anchored in something that is comprehensible, like a narrative. Some would surely say that's symptomatic of a limited musical imagination. Naturally, I would disagree.

 

9 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Certainly in the world of "art music" there are also many who would say that Wagner's operas are the epitome of musical accomplishment, and far beyond any mere symphony (certainly, Wagner's own symphonies are merely okay).

 

This is actually a good sequitur, because it's something Wagner himself struggled with: he wrote symphonies when young and they're...servicable. His sights were already set on opera. Around the time of Lohengrin, he was again getting very immersed in Beethoven and Haydn and made sketches for symphonies but never followed through. Then he set his sights on the Ring project, and in the process he wrote essays which extolls the death of the symphony and the ascendancy of the musical drama, but this opinion was not to last: in his last years Wagner dabbled with writing symphonies, but in the event he never did.
 

But beyond just that, the nature of what Wagner's operas are changes: in The Flying Dutchman we have, essentially, a traditional opera in concept. Then in Das Rheingold we have an opera where much - not all! - of the time the music is really made subservient to the drama, in a manner that reminds one of a film score.

 

By Walkure we're already moving a little away from this - all those long pantomimes between the Volsungs, Siegmund's "Spring song" aria, the Valkyrie chorus - and by the time we get to Tristan and Parsifal we're clearly into something that's more musical in conception. I mean, the temple scene in act one of Parsifal is JUST music: it doesn't progress the plot one iota, except maybe at the very end. But it's always within the framework of a drama.

[Naïve Old Fart 12,248]

3 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

I'll take a New York strip steak over filet mignon any day.

 

Medium rare.

 

Sausage, chips, and beans, does me, anytime 

[Bespin Copilot 10,150]

While the symphony remains a cornerstone of classical tradition, celebrated for its structural ambition and sonic grandeur, elevating it above all other forms discounts the diverse achievements found across musical landscapes. Each genre presents its own summit, and together they form the rich tapestry of human creativity.

 

Composing a work, regardless of its form, that is performed worldwide for decades and remains familiar to audiences represents the ultimate achievement in music.

[Nick1Ø66 7,424]

19 minutes ago, Bespin Copilot said:

While the symphony remains a cornerstone of classical tradition, celebrated for its structural ambition and sonic grandeur, elevating it above all other forms discounts the diverse achievements found across musical landscapes. Each genre presents its own summit, and together they form the rich tapestry of human creativity.

 

Composing a work, regardless of its form, that is performed worldwide for decades and remains familiar to audiences represents the ultimate achievement in music.

 

AI Probability: 97.6%

 

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Personally, I'm always at a little loss for words at these abstractly-aesthetic debates.

 

Proceeds to write 500-word essay.

[Bespin Copilot 10,150]

35 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

AI Probability: 97.6%

 

I'm more machine now than man.

[Glóin the Dark 1,666]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

For my personal tastes, I much prefer to have music be anchored in something that is comprehensible, like a narrative.

 

Mine are the opposite. If only we could get this narrative pollution banished from films as well...

[Chen G. 5,544]

Just now, Glóin the Dark said:

If only we could get this narrative pollution banished from films as well...

 

[Naïve Old Fart 12,248]

22 minutes ago, Bespin Copilot said:

I'm more machine now than man.

 

... twisted and evil 

[Bespin Copilot 10,150]

3 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

... twisted and evil 

 

[Quintus 5,953]

No, winning American Idol is.

[karelm 3,239]

I don't think his opinion makes a lot of sense.  He probably means the symphony is a pure vessel for the composer's output.  But that's not necessarily true.  Some symphonies have programs (a script) like Shostakovich Symphony No. 11 being about the Russian revolution, the songs of the patriots, the machine guns, etc.  Some are subtextual (Shostakovich No. 10 where there is a tyrannist movement that is ultimately destroyed by the musical idea of the composer - DSCH...the individual conquering their obstacle without saying it directly).  Then you have Schoenberg who wrote two chamber symphonies so only a small ensemble was used.  I think it's best to say the symphony is a composer's blank canvass.  Some will write a massive work with that canvass, some will be inspired by an existing story.  Some will be inspired by the artist who is performing it or commissioned it.  Doesn't mean it's their greatest achievement just because it's titled a symphony.  

[Holko 11,723]

Yeah, if there's anything I learned by going through some late romantic/early modern composers' symphony cycles earlier this year, it's that by then a symphony was already just whatever the hell the composer decided to call a symphony.

[ChrisAfonso 226]

Great discussion, and a lot of great points made!

Regarding the sometimes diametrical views what a symphony even is, I always like the famous quote from a Sibelius and Mahler discussion (from memory) "A symphony is absolute unity of form" - "No, a symphony is like a world, it has to contain everything!". It can be anything between these points - or farther out either side of them

On the question of "pinnacle of achievement", it's just a different thing - of course it's quite a task to write a long, coherent work for a big ensemble, but at the same time it's often harder to write a similarly long, engaging work for a very small ensemble, which lays bare the composer's raw skill with "the notes" (as compared to "dressing them up" with orchestration -- without going into the topic of orchestration-as-development). See Shostakovich's symphonies vs his string quartets, for example.

[Chen G. 5,544]

4 hours ago, Holko said:

Yeah, if there's anything I learned by going through some late romantic/early modern composers' symphony cycles earlier this year, it's that by then a symphony was already just whatever the hell the composer decided to call a symphony.

 

You know, this is another relevant point: Symphonies took a relatively fixed form with Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. But because those composers have exploited those forms so expertly, early Romantic composers just couldn't find their bearings in those forms: it took the distance of another generation, with the advent of Brahms, for composers to feel comfortable writing in those forms again.

 

Now imagine with Williams, evidentally with a lot of Haydn in his ears...

[Bayesian 1,560]

I'm inclined to argue that, in art music, the string quartet is the pinnacle of compositional form. I won't die on this hill, but there is a rational purity in the argument that getting four highly expressive string instruments to converse with each other, to explore emotion and thematic development in almost unlimited ways (but always within some form of overarching structure), is an extraordinarily difficult thing to achieve when it's done well. And apart from the notes on the paper themselves, the interpretation of those notes is half of what makes this musical form sublime. (I suppose that's true about any other form, though, sublime or otherwise.)

 

I think this is why Beethoven is so revered, and deservedly so. Late Beethoven is basically its own genre. He paved the way for Romanticism with his middle period and that alone would have guaranteed his place in the pantheon. But his late work is a glorious sui generis spur on the big musical tree, one that required composers from the next century to pick up where he left off. And of course, late B is where we find the last quartets, which collectively have been called, more than once, the pinnacle of Western music.

[Chen G. 5,544]

7 minutes ago, Bayesian said:

And apart from the notes on the paper themselves, the interpretation of those notes is half of what makes this musical form sublime. (I suppose that's true about any other form, though, sublime or otherwise

 

One of the fascinations I have with opera, particularly mature Wagner, is that the interperative capabilities call for from the singer-actors are so immense. Basically, to play a great Tristan, you need - and I'm not exaggerating here - the voice of a Melchior and the acting of an Olivier (and preferably the physique of a Pitt).

[The Score Cleaner 8,806]

8 hours ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

Opposite pollution well films the are narrative Mine only get if this could from banished as well... films

Fixed that for you. Since you prefer incomprehensible  

12 hours ago, Chen G. said:

For my personal tastes, I much prefer to have music be anchored in something that is comprehensible, like a narrative. 

Yeah, I agree, I prefer to be able to see (in the minds eye) the music dammit!

[Glóin the Dark 1,666]

better's Oh! yes that,

[Marian Schedenig 10,921]

21 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

You know, this is another relevant point: Symphonies took a relatively fixed form with Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. But because those composers have exploited those forms so expertly, early Romantic composers just couldn't find their bearings in those forms: it took the distance of another generation, with the advent of Brahms, for composers to feel comfortable writing in those forms again.

 

Well, Haydn basically defined the symphony, and Beethoven took it to its most extreme at that time - a 5 movement symphony (and a programmatic one!), and his final one was a full hour long (excessive for its time), swapped the middle movements, and had a recapitulation of the previous movements at the beginning of the finale before adding a FREAKING CHOIR.

 

Brahms famously struggled to write his first symphony in the shadow of Beethoven, but let's not forget that Schumann had written four symphonies in the meantime, and Schubert a whopping eight, his last one also lasting almost an hour (with all repetitions). Mendelssohn wrote five, with his last practically an hour long cantata with choir and soloists (though apparently published posthumously as "Symphony No. 2" simply because that number was left open in the chronologically confused list of symphonies published during his lifetime).

 

But while Brahms stuck to the strict traditional symphonic form, Bruckner expanded it, making it longer (at least 1 hour, up to 90 minutes+), adding extra thematic subjects, and generally taking Beethoven's idea of unifying the symphony by reusing themes throughout the movements and basing them on common building blocks (hey Goldsmith!). He also planted the seeds of Mahler's "symphony world" by opening his symphonies with all the bits that would be developed throughout and return at the coda of the finale. Rott took that over, until Mahler continued where he left off (using some of his Material in the process) and exploded the entire form.

 

Bruckner also sometimes had an underlying programme for his symphonies (or at other times maybe added it on top of the finished music, or had it added by others) - which apparently even back in his day led to criticism by people who frowned upon non-absolute music. But if you take that line of thought further, you have to discard much of Bach's output, and much of everyone else's! All those masses, motets, lieder - they're all based on texts, and at the very least use music to portray the meaning behind the text, often carefully modelling the musical lines word by word on the lyrics. Or onomatopoeically rendering the text (Mozart's weeping Lacrimosa). Or going outright narrative/programmatic like Mendelssohn in his oratorios (themselves modelled after Bach - listen how he scored Saul's dialogue with an ethereally shimmering Jesus in Paulus) and later Bruckner's dramatic, weeping crucifixion and rousing resurrection. Before the symphony was even conceived, that kind of text-based music (both sacred and secular) was the core business of the major composers. The idea of non-absolute music being unworthy is, it seems, essentially a Romantic idea that never actually took hold anyway - if anything, text-based music at the time doubled down on the concept of mirroring the text in the music, and never stopped. As a final example, here's Britten's chillingly cold In the Bleak Midwinter, complete with slowly falling snow-on-snow-on-snowflakes.

[Chen G. 5,544]

26 minutes ago, Little Ghost said:

Yeah, I agree, I prefer to be able to see (in the minds eye) the music dammit!

 

I do also admit to liking "descriptive" music: stuff like the literal shimmering of the Grail in Lohengrin or the storm in Oberon or any number of effects in Williams' music.

 

I'm sure the Hanslicks of the world would call it simple-minded but goddamit if it's not fun!

[Marian Schedenig 10,921]

That reminds me of the braying donkey in Mendelssohn's A Midsummer Night's Dream - something I'd never noticed until just a few years ago, and how delighted I was when I did:

 

[Chen G. 5,544]

4 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

That reminds me of the braying donkey in Mendelssohn's A Midsummer Night's Dream 

 

Of course, one would be remiss not to mention the barking hounds in Valkyrie:

 

 

But no, we're doing Oberon tonight!

[bruce marshall 1,959]

14 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

That reminds me of the braying donkey in Mendelssohn's A Midsummer Night's Dream - something I'd never noticed until just a few years ago, and how delighted I was when I did:

 

He's so " overrated".

😉

 

 

 

 

 

There's only been one great symphony since WWII.

You know what it is.

[Glóin the Dark 1,666]

Can't work out whether it's Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 6 or Elliott Carter's Symphonia: sum fluxae pretium spei.

[Yavar Moradi 4,002]

37 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

There's only been one great symphony since WWII.

You know what it is.

 

 

 

But seriously... that's nuts. This is one of my favorite symphonies of all time (and I love Shostakovich's last five symphonies more than his first five symphonies, easily...)

 

Yavar

[bruce marshall 1,959]

2 hours ago, Glóin the Dark said:

Can't work out whether it's Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 6 

Is that post- 1945?

[Glóin the Dark 1,666]

I would say so. It was completed in 1947 and first performed in 1948.

[bruce marshall 1,959]

2 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

I would say so. It was completed in 1947 and first performed in 1948.

Well , it's a terrific piece but not the one I'm thinking of.

[Glóin the Dark 1,666]

Ah, of course - it must be Robert Simpson's Symphony No. 9 !

[bruce marshall 1,959]

6 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

Ah, of course - it must be Homer  Simpson's Symphony No. 9 !

 

Think Otis. Think!

 

What is the one modern symphony to have reached a wide audience, sold alot of albums, and received universal praise ?

[Glóin the Dark 1,666]

Is it Witold Lutosławski's fourth?

[Bayesian 1,560]

23 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

 

Think Otis. Think!

 

What is the one modern symphony to have reached a wide audience, sold alot of albums, and received universal praise ?

Hmm... You got me stumped at the moment but lemme think on it. I feel like I should know the answer to this.