OT full scores already exist 😝

[Germoney814 21]

Tbh I think these soundtracks are still pretty good. The only thing I feel like was missing were all of Max Rebo's music and Yub Nub for ROTJ.

 

Am I wrong or does ANH and Empire have missing music?

 

Still hoping for a boxed set in future that'll include all those missing pieces of music!

[Holko 12,021]

SW: wrong takes.

ESB: wrong mixes, not great sources

ROTJ: garbage sound caused by a mastering fuckup

 

Also missing alternates and inserts etc.

And all 3 could sound faaaaaaar better.

[crumbs 15,934]

Yeah, isn't the stereo channel reversed on ESB or something?

 

They were under immense time constraints mixing that release. This was back in the days they had to pay hourly rates to mix in the same facilities as feature films (like Independence Day, which was mixing next door when they did the SEs). A good chunk of ESB was mixed live from the multitracks with no time for reviews or second passes.

 

No doubt Mike could do a significantly better job now in his own studio (without any time constraints), especially if better sources have been found since 1996 (which seems to be the case for ROTJ at least).

[QuartalHarmony 992]

And, to add to @Holko's list, if you read through @enderdrag64's excellent ongoing OT cue-by-cue reviews, you'll see how many times the speed is wrong on the releases you're suggesting are already more than sufficient.

[Loert 3,110]

This is the first time I've seen an emoji in the URL box

 

[crumbs 15,934]

14 minutes ago, Loert said:

This is the first time I've seen an emoji in the URL box

 

This sets a dangerous precedent.

[Jurassic Shark 16,373]

2 hours ago, Holko said:

ROTJ: garbage sound caused by a mastering fuckup

 

Someone should ask Mike what went wrong there.

[Holko 12,021]

He didn't do it.

[crumbs 15,934]

I don't think Mike ever commented on what happened with the ROTJ SE, other than saying they had to use less-than-ideal sources, and that he hoped people would understand.

 

But he neither mixed nor mastered it so whatever happened was seemingly out of his control.

 

It's a little concerning both the 2016 Sony and 2018 Demaster used the album master though, so who knows if better elements have turned up since 1996. Hopefully the first-gen multi-tracks surfaced at some point.

[Richard P 5,252]

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

No doubt Mike could do a significantly better job now in his own studio (without any time constraints), especially if better sources have been found since 1996 (which seems to be the case for ROTJ at least).

 

It sounds like the challenge has been convincing those higher up in Disney what the problems actually are. A bigger challenge than Indy, because at least it can be pointed out that they're more fundamentally not complete in terms of missing substantial actual score.

 

I've owned the 1997 ESB 2-CD set since around 2004 (it was a futile attempt to get into the OT while at uni - it didn't work) and the only thing I ever noticed about it was that the sound quality wasn't exactly fantastic, but I'd always attributed that to the age of the recording. I'm pretty much as ignorant as the suits would be on the grand scale.

 

I don't see any need to try to excuse Mike from these releases though. Even if he had mixed/mastered it, you've got time, financial, element, and technical limitations of the time, and everyone learns constantly. Whatever his involvement was, the end product is what it is.

[Tallguy 7,285]

8 minutes ago, Richard P said:

It sounds like the challenge has been convincing those higher up in Disney what the problems actually are. A bigger challenge than Indy, because at least it can be pointed out that they're more fundamentally not complete in terms of missing substantial actual score.

 

The really weird part is that Disney has never released even the "supposedly complete" recordings. We're back to versions of the original LPs! There is LESS Star Wars music in print than there was ten years ago!

 

This is not going how I thought it would.

[crumbs 15,934]

24 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

The really weird part is that Disney has never released even the "supposedly complete" recordings. We're back to versions of the original LPs! There is LESS Star Wars music in print than there was ten years ago!

 

This is not going how I thought it would.

 

We all salivated when Sony lost the rights, after sitting on their asses with the license for 20 years, only for Disney to follow suit.

 

And it all seemed so promising when they underwent that massive preservation effort by digitising all known music masters....

 

... a decade ago.

[Poor_Man_S_HirschFeld 97]

I'm pretty confident that the issue is not missing sources. The 1997 discs were produced under circumstances very different than today's, and that explains why they sound inferior to any expanded edition that would be released nowadays.

I'm ready to bet that a lot of the work needed to create new pristine masters of all of the full scores, complete with alternates and more has already been done. Alas, that is but one facet of releasing new editions.

Of course I share everybody's frustrations when I see Disney throw hundreds of millions of dollars to produce Star Wars movies and series that will be forgotten in two years time, but not be willing to do the "hard job" necessary to allow the release of new complete and expanded releases of all the Williams' scores.

[Datameister 2,582]

Technically, all three truly are incomplete. ANH is missing the original start to the end credits. ESB is missing an insert or two and some film mixes that would be nice to have. ROTJ is missing a couple of inserts, some source music, and the Jabba concert suite.

 

But yes, all three are comparable in completeness to your average expanded release from LLL or Intrada. It really is the sound quality that's the biggest issue. You don't run into vast amounts of missing music until you look at the other two trilogies.

[Bespin Copilot 10,735]

The Star Wars scores need the Mike Matessino treatment. PERIOD.

BTW I would need the Mike Matessino treatment too.

Oh, If I could remix my life... ta da da 

[Tallguy 7,285]

8 minutes ago, Datameister said:

ANH is missing the original start to the end credits

 

Is Star Wars missing anything that was in the film? (Not counting getting the correct takes for the moment.)

[Jay 45,837]

The only thing unreleased from Star Wars (1977 film) is the original start of the end credits, which was recorded, but never made it onto any album or video or radio drama or anything.

 

In terms of TAKES, smart people here have figured out that a few different takes went onto the 1977 soundtrack album instead of always matching the film takes, and subsequent reissues never brought us those film takes, though they have brought us various other takes at times (the 1993 box set especially had a bunch of takes that were different than the original album).  But in all cases, these different takes are only very minorly different from the ones we have.

 

So the short answer to your question is that yes, takes heard in the film are unreleased, but no, there are no compositions heard in the film that are unreleased.

[Smeltington 1,946]

Lol, after dropping this bomb, I wonder if Germoney will come back and grace this thread again. It's true though, these sets are perfectly enjoyable and so close to complete that only exceptionally dedicated fans like us will ever know or care about any missing bits. And I certainly would never know anything was wrong with the sound unless I was told, except on RotJ, which really does sound pretty crappy.

[Edmilson 12,243]

Yeah, ROTJ is really the original trilogy score that needs an expansion the most "urgently". 

 

So it seems Mike tackled a MASSIVE challenge early in his career, when he was less experienced and knowledgeable (and heck, had less power to convince executives, composers, etc). Despite that, he worked under a frustratingly difficult scenario and time constraints to work on three of the most recognizable and beloved scores of all time. 

 

Since then, he gained more experience, got "better" on the job and now that he has more know-how to really do these scores justice, the higher ups at Lucasfilm won't let him because they are idiots think that what we already have is enough. Sigh...

 

I guess the same thing can be said about the original LOTR scores. I'm glad the CRs exist, but they really deserve another attempt that corrects the problems (here, the ROTJ equivalent is FOTR). But will Shore do it? Will WB allow it?

[Mr. Hooper 8,686]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

In terms of TAKES, smart people here have figured out that a few different takes went onto the 1977 soundtrack album instead of always matching the film takes, and subsequent reissues never brought us those film takes, though they have brought us various other takes at times (the 1993 box set especially had a bunch of takes that were different than the original album).  But in all cases, these different takes are only very minorly different from the ones we have.

 

 

[Maurizio 6,913]

58 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

So it seems Mike tackled a MASSIVE challenge early in his career, when he was less experienced and knowledgeable (and heck, had less power to convince executives, composers, etc). Despite that, he worked under a frustratingly difficult scenario and time constraints to work on three of the most recognizable and beloved scores of all time. 

FYI, Matessino didn’t produce the 1997 SE sets. He supervised the assembly and wrote the liner notes. The producer was the late Nick Redman (who was kind of a mentor for Mike).

[MrJosh 1,192]

Despite their issues, I have such great memories of how exciting it was to buy each of the 1997 2CD sets, with their cool embossed logo on the slip covers, and the nice little booklets inside. 

 

They felt so premium in hand. I just stared at them for a while before popping the discs into my CD player. Later, I was annoyed at how careful I had to be to slip the CDs out to avoid any micro scratches, but still, those sets were so fun. 

[Bellosh 4,525]

tbh this is probably what Disney execs do when the topic of expanding the scores is brought up.

 

"don't they already have those songs?"

[Tallguy 7,285]

Tell them they have been in The Vault since 1997.

[Mr. Hooper 8,686]

12 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

tbh this is probably what Disney execs do when the topic of expanding the scores is brought up.

 

"don't they already have those songs?"

Yeah, if I was Matessino, I wouldn't bring up "incomplete" to the execs, but would sell them on the idea of legacy and preservation for posterity utilizing the best sources and the latest technology.

[Edmilson 12,243]

4 hours ago, Jay said:

The only thing unreleased from Star Wars (1977 film) is the original start of the end credits, which was recorded, but never made it onto any album or video or radio drama or anything.

 

In terms of TAKES, smart people here have figured out that a few different takes went onto the 1977 soundtrack album instead of always matching the film takes, and subsequent reissues never brought us those film takes, though they have brought us various other takes at times (the 1993 box set especially had a bunch of takes that were different than the original album).  But in all cases, these different takes are only very minorly different from the ones we have.

 

So the short answer to your question is that yes, takes heard in the film are unreleased, but no, there are no compositions heard in the film that are unreleased.

I know I'm going to sound ignorant and pretentious, especially to fans who research this topic for a long time, but that's not my intention. I'm genuinely curious, even if I'm sure my doubt will sound dumb.

 

But... If in terms of music composition there aren't many differences between the takes, so why people are so invested on getting these takes? What makes them worthwile in comparison to the ones on the 97 album?

 

For the record, I'm not saying that the correct takes shouldn't be released at all or that people should get used to what we have. I want to join the team in rooting for the correct takes to be released. But I wish to know what exactly do they offer in comparison with those we already have on the 97 albums?

[Mr. Hooper 8,686]

2 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I know I'm going to sound ignorant and pretentious, especially to fans who research this topic for a long time, but that's not my intention. I'm genuinely curious, even if I'm sure my doubt will sound dumb.

 

But... If in terms of music composition there aren't many differences between the takes, so why people are so invested on getting these takes? What makes them worthwile in comparison to the ones on the 97 album?

 

For the record, I'm not saying that the correct takes shouldn't be released at all or that people should get used to what we have. I want to join the team in rooting for the correct takes to be released. But I wish to know what exactly do they offer in comparison with those we already have on the 97 albums?

Collector OCD.

[Rachael Foley 10,032]

17 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I know I'm going to sound ignorant and pretentious, especially to fans who research this topic for a long time, but that's not my intention. I'm genuinely curious, even if I'm sure my doubt will sound dumb.

 

But... If in terms of music composition there aren't many differences between the takes, so why people are so invested on getting these takes? What makes them worthwile in comparison to the ones on the 97 album?

 

For the record, I'm not saying that the correct takes shouldn't be released at all or that people should get used to what we have. I want to join the team in rooting for the correct takes to be released. But I wish to know what exactly do they offer in comparison with those we already have on the 97 albums?

Its sort of like if a version of the films was released that used flubbed takes or fragments of takes, with people forgetting their lines for a second, and coming in wrong, lower energy, awkward line reads, breaking character etc.

 

 

[BloodBoal 8,552]

28 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

tbh this is probably what Disney execs do when the topic of expanding the scores is brought up.

 

"don't they already have those songs?"

 

More like: "Wait, there are people who actually listen to these beep boops background noises from films? For fun?!" 

[Tallguy 7,285]

Just now, Edmilson said:

I know I'm going to sound ignorant and pretentious, especially to fans who research this topic for a long time, but that's not my intention. I'm genuinely curious, even if I'm sure my doubt will sound dumb.

 

But... If in terms of music composition there aren't many differences between the takes, so why people are so invested on getting these takes? What makes them worthwile in comparison to the ones on the 97 album?

 

For the record, I'm not saying that the correct takes shouldn't be released at all or that people should get used to what we have. I want to join the team in rooting for the correct takes to be released. But I wish to know what exactly do they offer in comparison with those we already have on the 97 albums?

 

For my own part I am not nearly so educated nor do I have the ear of many members of this august board. I don't even really have much of a complaint about the RCA Return of the Jedi.

 

But I know that the most recent Superman sounds better, even to my ear, than the Blue Box did. And I know that for whatever arcane psychological reason I like the assembly of the LLL Close Encounters FAR more than the Arista (is that right?) from the 1990's.

 

So, for me, it's more those kind of things. I want Star Wars to be as shiny as Close Encounters, Jaws, and Superman. And Star Trek: The Motion Picture. And Always.

 

1 minute ago, The Score Cleaner said:

Its like if a version of the films was released that used flubbed takes, with people forgetting their lines for a second, and coming in wrong, awkward line reads  breaking character etc.

 

I'm sure you're exaggerating for effect but there is nothing that far out on any of the wrong takes on any of the Star Wars releases.

 

[Rachael Foley 10,032]

6 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

I'm sure you're exaggerating for effect but there is nothing that far out on any of the wrong takes on any of the Star Wars releases.

 

I was also kind of referring to alternate takes in general a bit.

 

Also:

 

Part time. vs. Part time!

6 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

For my own part I am not nearly so educated nor do I have the ear of many members of this august board. I don't even really have much of a complaint about the RCA Return of the Jedi.

 

But I know that the most recent Superman sounds better, even to my ear, than the Blue Box did. And I know that for whatever arcane psychological reason I like the assembly of the LLL Close Encounters FAR more than the Arista (is that right?) from the 1990's.

It's  always crazy comparing the Blue Box Helicopter Sequence to the LLL. there is an actual pitch and speed difference IIRC!

[Mr. Hooper 8,686]

9 minutes ago, The Score Cleaner said:

Its like if a version of the films was released that used flubbed takes, with people forgetting their lines for a second, and coming in wrong, low energy, awkward line reads, breaking character etc.

[Rachael Foley 10,032]

16 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

[BloodBoal 8,552]

14 minutes ago, The Score Cleaner said:

I was also kind of referring to alternate takes in general a bit.

 

Also:

 

Part time. vs. Part time!

 

[Tom 6,677]

Of course the full scores exist.  Otherwise, it would not make sense to want them released.   

[Germoney814 21]

12 hours ago, Holko said:

SW: wrong takes.

ESB: wrong mixes, not great sources

ROTJ: garbage sound caused by a mastering fuckup

 

Also missing alternates and inserts etc.

And all 3 could sound faaaaaaar better.

I do agree that the ROTJ doesn't sound great. Which takes from ANH are wrong? And what do you mean by wrong mixes and not great sources for ESB

[Bellosh 4,525]

if Holko says it's not correct, then it's not correct 

[Jay 45,837]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

I know I'm going to sound ignorant and pretentious, especially to fans who research this topic for a long time, but that's not my intention. I'm genuinely curious, even if I'm sure my doubt will sound dumb.

 

But... If in terms of music composition there aren't many differences between the takes, so why people are so invested on getting these takes? What makes them worthwile in comparison to the ones on the 97 album?

 

For the record, I'm not saying that the correct takes shouldn't be released at all or that people should get used to what we have. I want to join the team in rooting for the correct takes to be released. But I wish to know what exactly do they offer in comparison with those we already have on the 97 albums?

 

Nothing, really, except they are the ones in the film.   They were chosen for the film for a reason.  It might have simply been a mistake that different ones were put on the soundtrack album.

[Bespin Copilot 10,735]

I would simply add that yes, it’s true, you can absolutely not care that there are 23 takes of this or that cue. But the moment those tracks ended up either on an album or in a version of the film… well, you can’t rewrite history. I’ve always had the same attitude, for example when I worked on the Aznavour box sets. Who are we, fifty years after the fact, to decide that we’ll use this take but not that one? If it was released on a physical format... whether intentionally or by mistake... then it deserves to be preserved. Full stop.

[Mr. Hooper 8,686]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

Of course the full scores exist.  Otherwise, it would not make sense to want them released.   

 

[Bespin Copilot 10,735]

The original tapes of Star Wars still exists, they are just hidden under George Lucas's bed. Good luck to get them.

[Amer 2,722]

16 hours ago, MrJosh said:

Despite their issues, I have such great memories of how exciting it was to buy each of the 1997 2CD sets, with their cool embossed logo on the slip covers, and the nice little booklets inside. 

 

They felt so premium in hand. I just stared at them for a while before popping the discs into my CD player. Later, I was annoyed at how careful I had to be to slip the CDs out to avoid any micro scratches, but still, those sets were so fun. 

I felt the same. Later on I managed to get spare copies of all 3 book editions . All sealed up for a possible Time capsule.

 

 

[MrJosh 1,192]

4 hours ago, Bespin Copilot said:

The original tapes of Star Wars still exists, they are just hidden under George Lucas's bed. Good luck to get them.

 

[Corellian2019 491]

7 hours ago, Germoney814 said:

I do agree that the ROTJ doesn't sound great. Which takes from ANH are wrong? And what do you mean by wrong mixes and not great sources for ESB

 

Chris Malone wrote an excellent article about the creation (and subsequent issues with) the 1993 and 1997 editions of the OT scores.

 

Regarding ESB specifically, on the 1997 edition a number of cues were remixed to be more "center-oriented", resulting in weird instrument placement, compared to the Eric Tomlinson film mixes:

 

Quote

The resultant album combines the two-track and 24-track sources and unfortunately suffers significantly from doing so. When experienced as a complete album, Empire has many tonal and imaging shifts that are the result of some cues retaining the enveloping and composer approved Eric Tomlinson film mix whereas others adopt the adhoc Brian Risner remix. To the author, the 4CD box set therefore offers the definitive mix of the score despite being further generations away from the original unmixed session tapes and likely to include a handful of cues adjusted by John Neal in 1980. [Refer to Appendix A for a list of remixed cues for the Special Edition set.]

 

[Richard P 5,252]

12 hours ago, Bespin Copilot said:

I would simply add that yes, it’s true, you can absolutely not care that there are 23 takes of this or that cue. But the moment those tracks ended up either on an album or in a version of the film… well, you can’t rewrite history. I’ve always had the same attitude, for example when I worked on the Aznavour box sets. Who are we, fifty years after the fact, to decide that we’ll use this take but not that one? If it was released on a physical format... whether intentionally or by mistake... then it deserves to be preserved. Full stop.

 

You have no idea how badly I want to bring a debate about tracking/mixing into this conversation.... but I don't want to totally derail the thread 

 

I support the general notion of having the film takes, for exactly the same reason that I generally support film edits (again, another discussion) - they're the take heard in the film. Some are a lot subtler than others, but when you know a score well, it can matter, a lot.

 

But is the correct film takes where it stops? I know one of the sets contains multiple main title takes at the end. Is it a fair reading of the room that most people just want a score (film takes) + alternates/source, i.e. a standard Matessino release, or do people who dream of a set that has hours of alternate takes?

 

The same sort of argument probably applies to potential future LotR sets, where we know there is hours and hours of different takes, mixes, and versions, but even though FotR is probably my favourite score of all time, I know we don't need all of it - some curation is needed.

[Rachael Foley 10,032]

The only FOTR alternate performance take that we don't have and that we know of that I would want is the full OST take of Flight to the Ford.

[BloodBoal 8,552]

28 minutes ago, Richard P said:

The same sort of argument probably applies to potential future LotR sets, where we know there is hours and hours of different takes, mixes, and versions, but even though FotR is probably my favourite score of all time, I know we don't need all of it - some curation is needed.

 

Well, in the case of The Fellowship Of The Ring, this is not that people want film takes or anything: it is that there is actual original compositional material missing (material that was replaced with tracked music in the film, and the Complete Recordings release retained the tracked music instead of restoring Shore's original material). 

[Chen G. 6,065]

Fellowship of the Ring is really a kind of isolated score track.

[LB Makes Stuff 365]

I say we get Shawn Murphy to remix an OT expansion, what could go wrong?

[BloodBoal 8,552]

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

Fellowship of the Ring is really a kind of isolated score track.

 

Sort of, but not entirely true. The Complete Recordings did restore music that was dialed out in the film (like for example, when Frodo sees the Ringwraiths' true form on Weathertop).