Film Composer Concert Works and Vice Versa

[albanberg 0]

I was wondering who you think ( film composer) would be a good canidate to write concert music? I wonder sometimes about the new crop of film composers and if they are capable of sustaining a thirty or forty minute symphony. When I say sustain, I mean develop a theme or motif for the entirety of a work. Could Zimmer do it? Elfman? I think most of the European film composers are concert hall composers also.

What about concert hall composers that could write film music? I think John Adams, Michael Torke, Lowell Lieberman, ect. would make fanstastic film composers.

So much of Hollywood music is un-original and cliche. The concert hall guys have an original take on things. In fact, word on the street is that an experimental composer is writing music for Gibson's Passion.

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

I like Williams' and Goldsmith's concert music, and also the one Corigliano film score I know. And I like most Korngold.

Marian - awaiting Goldenthal's opera.

Damien - Omen II (Jerry Goldsmith)

[AC1 3,565]

The problem with known concert hall composers is that when they start writing for Hollywood their "serious" career is in great danger.

Also, writing for movies is a whole different world. Besides the technical aspect of it, it isn't so much fun as you might think. Gone is the freedom you enjoyed as a serious composer. Imagine you'll have to listen to the director, nosy producers with sometimes different opinions than the director. Copying temporary tracks is pretty much your job describtion when you're working for Hollywood. We want "Basic Instinct"! Can you do "The Rock"? We want something trendy, like "Ocean's Eleven". Are you our man?

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Morn 7]

I think a composer with self respect should take the Herrmann attitude, I write the score my way or hire someone else.

Anyway I think film composers can make good concert music, look at Don Davis for example. I wonder how many film composers could truily make something original and complex enough to be good concert music.

And concert hall composers make great film composers, ie Prokofiev!

[jsawruk 0]

Both of my careers are in danger because I constantly try to straddle both. My film comp professor constantly complains that my film music is too concert oriented, and my concert comp prof says that my concert music is too film oriented. Ironically, I have had better results in CONCERT music, even though that's not really what I want to do. The problem really is that they are completely different, and that if you excel in one area, you most likely will fail in the other. Some have mixed success, such as concert composers who dabble in film music, like Glass, or the opposite, like Williams. However, there has yet to be someone who truly excels in both areas (in my opinion) because the technical demands are quite different. I do not think Elfman could write a truly great concert work. Catchy? Yes, but not technically great. Zimmer might be able to do it, and it would probably resemble the concert works of Williams.

I think Adams' general style will be adapted into film music more often, and I think Torke's will also be added, but I don't know if people like Liebermann and Larsen will find much of their style's incorporated into film music, but perhaps Rochberg might.

[Morn 7]

Prokofiev, Jaswruk, he excelled at both. It is possible to excell at both, and good film music should be concert like in some ways, I mean Goldenthal like compared to say David Arnold. Bring some quality standard to film music, of complexity and originality, we need less of the cliched commercial nonsense, film music is better than that, it can be as good in quality as concert music when done by somebody with standards.

[jsawruk 0]

Morn never went to film music school it seems. He does not grasp the vast differences between film music and concert music. You cannot just write concert music and call it film music. Just because your reference frame is concert music does not mean that the film music is better or worse because they are so different.

Prokofiev was ok in film music, but he excelled far greater as a concert composer. I doubt that anyone would list him as a great film comopser, but he is on every list of great 20th century concert composers. Korngold, however, certainly excelled as a film composer, quite possibly one of the first real film composers, but isn't that well known for his concert works.

We also have to remember that this difference transcends style. Compositional styles change, as do film music style. The fact that they are not the same style at the same time certainly says something about the disparity between the two fields. Therefore we must compare technique rather than style.

[Morn 7]

No, I just know of plenty of high quality concert quality film music, Herrmann, Rosenman etc that functions great at supporting a film too. Note it's not interchangeable with concert music though.

Prokfiev's film scores are extremely popular you know though, jsawruk, nevsky is regarded as one of the best often.

[jsawruk 0]

Popularity doesn't make a composer good. Alexander Nevsky is good for what it is, but he still is not a film composer because 1 strong work doesn't make a film composer. Personally, I like Lieutenant Kije better.

[Mari 279]

And I like most Korngold.

Agreed

I like what I've heard from Elmer Bernstein (guitar concerto) and Lee Holdridge (Scenes of Summer, Ballet Fantasy for Strings and Harp). The film composer I'd most like to see branch out into concert music is Patrick Doyle. I think he could be as successful in both arenas as one of my other favorite composers, Sir William Walton.

~Mari

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Korngold, however, certainly excelled as a film composer, quite possibly one of the first real film composers, but isn't that well known for his concert works.

Not anymore you mean. Before he went to America to write film music, he was the 2nd-most popular opera composer around here, and greatly admired by composers like Richard Strauss. He was considered to be one of the biggest wunderkinds since Mozart. I think his is THE classic case of a film music carreer ruining a composer's concert carreer.

Marian - wishing Korngold had lived longer.

[AC1 3,565]

Korngold has written a beautiful, easy accessible (very melodic) violin concerto that I can recommend wholeheartedly. It's on Deutsche Grammophon together with Barber's violin concerto. Andre Previn conducts the LSO and the soloist is Gil Shaham, who knows a thing or two on how to get a beautiful tone out of a violin. On other occasions I feel he's to clean, missing some guts, but here he's right on the money.

-----------------

Alex Cremers

[David Coscina 3]

Vaughan Williams' Symphonia Antartica was originally a film score for Scott of the Antarctic. Pretty amazing stuff too.

I agree with jsawruk in that the disciplines are too very different beasts. As a composer for film, you are compromised by the fact that you're not the captain of the ship. And most often the captain is not very well versed in music so communication is difficult. But then again, I found that I composed things that I would have never thought of because a director had a certain direction he wanted me to go in.

But to develop one's compositional chops, there is no better medium than concert works. Recording orchestras is very different from live performances. One must orchestrate differently. Such as, I'd never have the horns playing non-stop in the concert piece because most groups up where I live are comprised of semi-pros and the tend to cack after a while. Also, brass sounds a helluva lot louder than strings do so they must be scored at a different dynamic level in you want everything else in the group to be audible.

Both are rewarding endeavers for different reasons.

[nja 0]

Korngold, however, certainly excelled as a film composer, quite possibly one of the first real film composers, but isn't that well known for his concert works.

. . . I would disagree.

His string quartets and orchestral works are well-known and performed, not to mention his concertos. In fact, the violin concerto is considered one of the finest in the repertoire. I once heard Perlman say that if he could only have one CD on a desert island it would be Heifetz playing the Korngold (don't ask me how he would play the CD )

If anything, I think Korngold is a classic example of someone whose concert works were snubbed by his contemporaries because of their Romantic style while other trends were more in vogue. By past precedent, history seems to justify such composer "misfits" with the best music eventually rising to the surface.

Rachmaninov comes to mind (though his body of concert works is significantly larger)- also that much maligned contemporary composer . . . what's his name- I think it started with a J . . .

[ocelot 445]

Janet Jackson?

[ocelot 445]

Has everyone forgotten about George Gershwin?

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Leonard Bernstein. On the Waterfront is a very good score, reminds me of Rosenman.

[Mari 279]

Aaron Copland had quite a successful career in both arenas too.

[ocelot 445]

It seems to be easier and more acceptable to American Classical Composers rather than European composers. Also, Tan Dun. Did we mention him already?

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

And Shostakovich wasn't yet mentioned either.

Sinfonia antartica (Ralph Vaughan Williams)

[Mari 279]

And back to more modern composers, Philip Glass.

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Uh-oh, noone mentioned Nyman.

Marian -

The Matrix Revolutions (Don Davis)