Are the Harry Potter stories stupid??

[nja 0]

I love the HP scores, but in regards to the stories themselves, , ,

while rewatching HP-COS with some friends recently, I couldn?t help noticing how disjointed the film could be, many scenes coming across contrived or unrelated to the plot. I realize the HP films were adapted from rather lengthy books, but still- isn?t it the job of the screenwriter to make things work for film?

Left me wondering if HP were not the huge current trend that it is, and JW hadn?t scored the film,

would I even be watching this?

[King Mark 3,624]

Incidently CoS has the weakest plot of all the books.

I saw the movies and read the books because JW is involved.I don't think i would have otherwise.

K.M.

[Morlock 11]

I can only answer this in relation to the books, not the movies.

I think the storylines are almost entirely unoriginal, yet very good none the less. What Rowling is basically take bit and pieces of the best elements of all these great Fantasy books, and put together, with her own contribution. Which is why, IMO, the books are great, gripping, engrossing, very entertaining, but aren't in the class of being among greatest books ever, or greatest children's books ever. I think that they are more than a fad, but that they're not gonna travel through the centuries like many other classic books.

[A24 4,326]

For kids these are wonderful films, and as a consequence, millions of kids, all around the world, love them. If you analyze them as an adult you are bound to discover flaws or plot holes just like you would in so many other movies. Nothing is perfect.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Oh, I just realised that you said the storyline in the films. I was ready to give you a good beating! The books are masterpieces, but in the movies they seem paper thin.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Am I the only one who thinks that the character of Fawkes The Phoenix in CoS is nothing but a blatant plot device?

In his office Dumbledore tells Harry what powers the Phoenix has, and they just happen to all come in handy during the climax.

I thought thay was pretty lazy, though i dunno if it's the same in the book.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I thought it was pathetic how in the book Dumbledore explains how powerful Phoenix' are, then in the Chamber of Secrets Riddle calls him a useless songbird. Then when Fawkes attacks the Basilisk and heals Harry Tom says something like "Of course, Phoenix tears have healing powers. I forgot!" Uh... hello? Wasn't Tom supposed to be the smartest wizard to pass through Hogwarts, only rivalling DD himself?

It's like if a man threatens another man with a knife. The man being threatened pulls out a gun. The knife-guy laughs and is shot. "Of course, guns can hurt people! I forgot!"

[Ren 75]

the books are great. very well written.. the movies are ok as stand alones. the books are not fads and will last.

[HPFAN_2 0]

I think the storyline in the movies is very good and very well adapted, but what Steve Kloves always leaves out is characters. The characters never develop or grow, we never see a part of them outside the plot but relevant to understanding them better.

[Lurker 5]

Gilderoy Lockhart is comletely useless in the second movie. What does he contribute to the story? He's a funny character and Baranagh is great as him, but he simply takes up space and makes the movie longer. He could be completely cut and never missed. The same holds true for the entire spider sequence. There's some exciting stuff there and the music is good, but even after that scene, Ron asks what the point was. My thoughts exactly.

Neil

[Ren 75]

it's too bad that they couldn't have made Lockhart have the depth the book character did....

[QMM 4]

Is this thread in relation to the book, movie(s) or both?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

This is a stupid thread, and poll, nja, could you have come up with better choices in your poll, cause if thats the best you can do why waste your time and ours.

the books are great, the films are good and great, they are just so complex that the books need to be read, the movies are just snippets, then there are those who could care less.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The stories in the film do not even live up to the shadow of the complexities of the books. To me, it always seems that too much was left in the screenplay, and there was too little work done into properly converting the books to the screen, storywise. If you think the stories of HP are weak, read the books, and read all of them, so you get a good look at the overall story arc, not just of each book seperately, but the entire series as well.

- Marc, wants new Potter.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Marc, wants new Potter.  

me too.

[Ollie 1,059]

I think stupid is to cruel a term to use.

While I do not find them interesting I don't think they are stupid.

I think a better way of phrasing this thread could have been found.

[nja 0]

This is a stupid thread, and poll, nja, could you have come up with better choices in your poll, cause if thats the best you can do why waste your time and ours.

Hmmmm . . .

[Ren 75]

I agree with Joe. They are just so complex that the books need to be read. the movies are just snippets.

[Morlock 11]

I don't think complex is the word... detailed would fit better. I found the books easy to understand, keep track of, and visualise.

And I don't think they are among the best books ever written.

Morlock- who has just reread To Kill A Mockingbird, a real classic.

[nja 0]

I agree with Joe.  They are just so complex that the books need to be read.  the movies are just snippets.

Oh is that what Joe said?

nja- who thinks that sounds more like what Marc said

[Ren 75]

Well who ever the hell said it. . joe/marc/ren it's all the same. and morlock, detailed is a good word too.

i loved to kill a mockingbird. great book. as well as the tale of two cities.

[HPFAN_2 0]

I personaly think it will become a classic since the only book that sold more is the bible. And the story is very vivid and gripping. Rowling writes as if she is harry. BRILLIANT!

[Morlock 11]

A. Sales do not reflect quality.

B. Mao's Red Book is also still way ahead of it

C. The number for HP is for all five books

D. Sales do not reflect quality

And so what if Rowling writes as if she was Harry? that's not a hard thing to do.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Morlock- who has just reread To Kill A Mockingbird, a real classic.

oh there's a fair comparison, a children's fantasy series vs a racial social commentary,

Joe, who thinks Morlock has a point about sales do not reflect quality, but otherwise hasn't a clue. Great sales do not mean there isn't quality there. Case in point To Kill a Mockingbird has sold millions of copies, it must be a piece of shit then!

[HPFAN_2 0]

A. Sales do not reflect quality.

 B. Mao's Red Book is also still way ahead of it

 C. The number for HP is for all five books

 D. Sales do not reflect quality

 

 And so what if Rowling writes as if she was Harry? that's not a hard thing to do.

I'm not saying because it has sold well that it is very good i'm just saying with these sales it has secured a place in history it may be miniscule or giganitc but it is secured. And who jugdes it's quality but the individual, so if i think it's the best thing in the world well damn it then, it's the best thing in the world, it isn't a fact but an opinion and my opinion isn't wrong. So i would appreciate it if you didn't try to condtradict my opinion. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it. A man is to carry himself in the presence of all opposition, as if every thing were titular and ephemeral but he. I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions. Harry Potter believe it or not has affected this world, historians will study this in universities and teach it to the eager listiners. Literary geniuses of the future will hear about harry potter in their college days. Oh wait some proffesers are already assimilating HP into their lectures.

Read it if you wish but it does support my argument-Greek philosophy scholar Steven Tigner felt he had more important things to read than read J. K. Rowling's phenomenally popular Harry Potter books. But the best-selling children's series so fascinated his undergraduate students at the School of Education that one day he reluctantly opened up the first volume, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

"Like so many astonished adults both before me and after, I was soon ensorcelled," says Tigner, whose February 15 lecture on the series, Harry Potter and the Good Life, drew an overflow crowd to the Ryan Library in SED's Center for the Advancement of Ethics and Character. "The ways in which Rowling's imagination harmonizes with the moral insights we find in Plato and Aristotle are really quite remarkable." Steven Tigner confers with Assistant Professor Karen Bohlin, director of SED's Center for the Advancement of Ethics and Character (CAEC), in the Ryan Library, where Tigner recently lectured on the Harry Potter books. The talk marked the official opening of the library, which was dedicated in the fall to CAEC's now retired founding director, Kevin Ryan. Photo by Albert l'Étoile

Rowling may have her detractors, but Tigner, SED adjunct professor and author of several articles on character education, is not one of them. Critics have charged that her books lure children into the occult, have an antifamily bias, promote sexism, are too violent, and have scant literary merit. Tigner dismisses all such claims with the speed of a Firebolt (an expensive racing broom Harry craves, but sensibly resists buying), for debunking critics is not the objective of Tigner's Potter analysis. His aim is to cast a scholarly eye on these contemporary books and demonstrate how the narrative echoes the ideas of ancient thinkers, especially where character virtues such as temperance, wisdom, courage, and responsibility are concerned. "Although J. K. Rowling does say these are moral stories, I don't think it is her intention to moralize," Tigner says. "I think a background in the classics, Plato and Aristotle in particular, gives us what we need to discern what's really going on morally in these stories and what children can get out of them."

For the uninitiated, Harry Potter is an orphaned British lad whose wizard parents were killed in a magical attack by the evil Lord Voldemort when he was an infant. It is not until Harry turns 11 that another wizard, the virtuous and wise Albus Dumbledore, visits the Muggle, or mortal, world to reveal the truth about the boy's heritage. Escaping the nasty relatives who have raised him, the young hero finds friends at the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry and learns about good and evil through interactions with fantastic characters. The term good life in the title of Tigner's presentation refers to a life lived virtuously, apart from one's relative wealth. In his analysis, Tigner looks at all four volumes in the Harry Potter series, drawing parallels between quotes from the Bible, Plato's Republic, Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, and other classic literature with the language in Rowling's books. For example, he cites Aristotle's definition of moral virtue as "a state of character concerned with choice," then quotes the second volume of the Potter series when Dumbledore says, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." On the subject of temperance, Tigner finds that the contrast between Harry and his gluttonous cousin, Dudley Dursley, resonates with the writings of Plato. "Dudley was given every opportunity and aid to indulge himself, did so, and became perfectly horrible," Tigner says. "Harry, on the other hand, never given any more than the bare essentials, grew temperate and won our sympathy. Harry and Dudley are like the citizens of Plato's two cities, the frugal, healthy city, and the luxurious unhealthy one, living side by side."

Tigner teaches two Cultural Foundations for Educators courses, which introduce teacher trainees in early childhood and elementary education to classic literature and art.

"If I ever were to teach a third course," he says, "it would go up into the 21st century and would certainly include Harry Potter." The books are useful in studying how literature can provide moral insight, he says, "because far more of my students are into Harry Potter than are into Plato and Aristotle. Learning how to make the moral connection is salutary for the soul."

HP has been rooted in history, i think it is eligable for the title of "classic" But what is a classic? Websters says it's-Belonging to the highest rank or class. Serving as the established model or standard: . Having lasting significance or worth; enduring. And doesn't Hp have lasting significance? Doesn't it serve as a model for future childrens book? Yes to both the former and latter. However webster isn't always a blueprint for thing so that relevance can be dashed from the argument. Classical literatue

But it always comes down to opinion. I highly enjoy and recommend the book and i think it is a classic. There is no organiztion to vote on whether a book is a classic or not so it is left up to the majority to decide. But the majority is but opinions. And opinions aren't fact. So if we think they are classics then we think they are classics there is no contradiction because you will get nowhere Morlock. HP is a classic in my eyes and it is part of history.

[nja 0]

Whoa.

[nja 0]

I agree with Joe.  They are just so complex that the books need to be read.  the movies are just snippets.

You're probably right. In regards to the films, I just wonder if they could have done a more selective job of adapting the books. Like Neil mentioned, trimming out characters like Lockhart or scenes that interrupted the flow of the plot.

Likely a result of not wanting to disapoint readers by leaving out sections. Also, Rowling had a fairly large part in the drafting of the final screenplays.

Oh well, what can you say.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

No offense to the person who started this poll but those choices are REALLY limited.

I mean I've seen better stories out there but that doesn't mean I think they are stupid.

Plus the other choice with "Aynone who disagrees" that kind of crap is also very childish. What? People cannot disagree anymore?

I am not gonna vote since both choiccs dont reflect my feelings at all.

No offense to nja is intended but in the future please dont be so extreme and limited with the choices presented.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I won't vote either, the options are too limited. The stories in the books themselves are brilliant works of genius writer J.K. Rowling. Enough cannot be said in favor of them. The films, as others have said, are mere samplers of the true stories.

Ray Barnsbury

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I heard Rowlings is now the richest woman in the UK because of these books. Probabvly one of the richest authors (if NOT THE richest EVER)

[nja 0]

I am not gonna vote since both choiccs dont reflect my feelings at all.  

No offense to nja is intended but in the future please dont be so extreme and limited with the choices presented.

No offense taken- I?m sorry you feel the choices are limited. ?I?ve seen better? was my attempt (perhaps a poor one) to make the negative option not so negative. The poll question does refer specifically to the films rather than the books which I think is pretty clear if you look at the wording.

Plus the other choice with "Aynone who disagrees" that kind of crap is also very childish. What? People cannot disagree anymore?  

Of course people can disagree (did I imply they couldn?t?) The ?iron their own hands? bit was only intended as a little humor in the spirit of HP. Not at all intended to be restrictive.

[Morlock 11]

I'm not saying because it has sold well that it is very good i'm just saying with these sales it has secured a place in history it may be miniscule or giganitc but it is secured. And who jugdes it's quality but the individual' date=' so if i think it's the best thing in the world well damn it then, it's the best thing in the world, it isn't a fact but an opinion and my opinion isn't wrong. So i would appreciate it if you didn't try to condtradict my opinion. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it. A man is to carry himself in the presence of all opposition, as if every thing were titular and ephemeral but he. I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions. Harry Potter believe it or not has affected this world, historians will study this in universities and teach it to the eager listiners. Literary geniuses of the future will hear about harry potter in their college days. Oh wait some proffesers are already assimilating HP into their lectures.

Read it if you wish but it does support my argument-Greek philosophy scholar Steven Tigner felt he had more important things to read than read J. K. Rowling's phenomenally popular Harry Potter books. But the best-selling children's series so fascinated his undergraduate students at the School of Education that one day he reluctantly opened up the first volume, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

"Like so many astonished adults both before me and after, I was soon ensorcelled," says Tigner, whose February 15 lecture on the series, Harry Potter and the Good Life, drew an overflow crowd to the Ryan Library in SED's Center for the Advancement of Ethics and Character. "The ways in which Rowling's imagination harmonizes with the moral insights we find in Plato and Aristotle are really quite remarkable." Steven Tigner confers with Assistant Professor Karen Bohlin, director of SED's Center for the Advancement of Ethics and Character (CAEC), in the Ryan Library, where Tigner recently lectured on the Harry Potter books. The talk marked the official opening of the library, which was dedicated in the fall to CAEC's now retired founding director, Kevin Ryan. Photo by Albert l'Étoile

Rowling may have her detractors, but Tigner, SED adjunct professor and author of several articles on character education, is not one of them. Critics have charged that her books lure children into the occult, have an antifamily bias, promote sexism, are too violent, and have scant literary merit. Tigner dismisses all such claims with the speed of a Firebolt (an expensive racing broom Harry craves, but sensibly resists buying), for debunking critics is not the objective of Tigner's Potter analysis. His aim is to cast a scholarly eye on these contemporary books and demonstrate how the narrative echoes the ideas of ancient thinkers, especially where character virtues such as temperance, wisdom, courage, and responsibility are concerned. "Although J. K. Rowling does say these are moral stories, I don't think it is her intention to moralize," Tigner says. "I think a background in the classics, Plato and Aristotle in particular, gives us what we need to discern what's really going on morally in these stories and what children can get out of them."

For the uninitiated, Harry Potter is an orphaned British lad whose wizard parents were killed in a magical attack by the evil Lord Voldemort when he was an infant. It is not until Harry turns 11 that another wizard, the virtuous and wise Albus Dumbledore, visits the Muggle, or mortal, world to reveal the truth about the boy's heritage. Escaping the nasty relatives who have raised him, the young hero finds friends at the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry and learns about good and evil through interactions with fantastic characters. The term good life in the title of Tigner's presentation refers to a life lived virtuously, apart from one's relative wealth. In his analysis, Tigner looks at all four volumes in the Harry Potter series, drawing parallels between quotes from the Bible, Plato's Republic, Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, and other classic literature with the language in Rowling's books. For example, he cites Aristotle's definition of moral virtue as "a state of character concerned with choice," then quotes the second volume of the Potter series when Dumbledore says, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." On the subject of temperance, Tigner finds that the contrast between Harry and his gluttonous cousin, Dudley Dursley, resonates with the writings of Plato. "Dudley was given every opportunity and aid to indulge himself, did so, and became perfectly horrible," Tigner says. "Harry, on the other hand, never given any more than the bare essentials, grew temperate and won our sympathy. Harry and Dudley are like the citizens of Plato's two cities, the frugal, healthy city, and the luxurious unhealthy one, living side by side."

Tigner teaches two Cultural Foundations for Educators courses, which introduce teacher trainees in early childhood and elementary education to classic literature and art.

"If I ever were to teach a third course," he says, "it would go up into the 21st century and would certainly include Harry Potter." The books are useful in studying how literature can provide moral insight, he says, "because far more of my students are into Harry Potter than are into Plato and Aristotle. Learning how to make the moral connection is salutary for the soul."

HP has been rooted in history, i think it is eligable for the title of "classic" But what is a classic? Websters says it's-Belonging to the highest rank or class. Serving as the established model or standard: . Having lasting significance or worth; enduring. And doesn't Hp have lasting significance? Doesn't it serve as a model for future childrens book? Yes to both the former and latter. However webster isn't always a blueprint for thing so that relevance can be dashed from the argument. Classical literatue

But it always comes down to opinion. I highly enjoy and recommend the book and i think it is a classic. There is no organiztion to vote on whether a book is a classic or not so it is left up to the majority to decide. But the majority is but opinions. And opinions aren't fact. So if we think they are classics then we think they are classics there is no contradiction because you will get nowhere Morlock. HP is a classic in my eyes and it is part of history.[/quote']

And my opinions contradict your opinions. So I would appreciate it if you didn't try to contradict my opinions.

This is a discussion, and apparantley a heated one at that, and we have somewhat opposed opinions. We both present our opinions- that's how this works.

They have indeed changed the world, but so have many other things. I don't think these will ever be taught with the classics. And I've heard many lectures by proffesers that used Harry Potter- but from a culteral point of view, not a literary one.

But, again, opinions aren't fact. I din't present my opinions to contradict yours, I just wnated my opinions to be heard, and the yhappen to contradict yours. Everything you say about opinions is equally aplicable to your posts.

I will continue to present my opinion that they aren't genuine, bona fide classics, and you contradicting that will get you nowhere.

They are great books, for people of all ages, among my favorite fantasy books of the last couple of decades, and classics of sorts, they are a part of history. But you can't take me dissagreeing with you personaly, and continue to argue that the HP books are undeniably the greatest books ever. Irrelevant of how strongly you feel, those are your opinions, and are just as debatable as mine are.

P.S.- I know I hammered my point in way too much

[A24 4,326]

Maybe the problem is that the film desperately wants to be the book. No good can come out of that. Film and books are two different media.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[JoeinAR 1,949]

There is alot of criticism that the films and the books are identical, but the truth is they are not, not by a long shot.

The films do a good job of condensing, but in each case something is left either on the cutting room floor, or not filmed at all.

While to some Gilderoy Lockhart might be wasted, his presense is there to point out the difficulty of maintaining a Defense against the Dark Arts teacher, a theme throughout the first 6 books. Not to mention Lockhart returns later in the series.

What might seem pointless in Harry Potter now might end up making alot more sense in later films of the series.

Once again Morlock is wrong, Rowlings works is original in its format.

He is quite right that Rowling draws from all sorts of other literary themes, but it is original in format and storytelling. He trys hard to come up with an arguement but like a house of cards it collapses.

[Ren 75]

it does draw on literary themes. yes.

[Morlock 11]

Format is just one of the elements. And I've seen other books simialr in storytelling.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

In a lot of ways, Rowling does with Harry Potter, what Lucas did with Star Wars 27 years ago. Both writers took ideas from pre-existing stories and myths, and turn them into something new. And in a fresh, exhilerating, exciting way.

On another note, I like the whole politics theme that enters into the later books. It makes the stories even more complex. There are many, many elements, not just layered on top of each other, but interwoven as well, in ways we probably won't be able to completely comprehense until we get a good look at the full series.

- Marc

[Morlock 11]

In a lot of ways, Rowling does with Harry Potter, what Lucas did with Star Wars 27 years ago. Both writers took ideas from pre-existing stories and myths, and turn them into something new. And in a fresh, exhilerating, exciting way.

That's what I meant exactly.

[HPFAN_2 0]

Sorry guys i just get very passionate when discussing Harry potter.

[Morlock 11]

I understand and will try to be as considerate as I can in any disagreements we have.

[HPFAN_2 0]

You make it sound like you offended me. No Morlock you didn't, no need for "sorry".

[Ren 75]

see, make up posts are the best.

[diskobolus 3]

Even the essence of this thread is meaningless. By "Harry Potter stories" you make it to mean the general storyline of the books, as that is where Harry Potter began. If you mean the films, the general storyline ideas would still be the same. Use screenplay if that's what you really mean.

So my answer: No, but this thread is. Really is.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

see, make up posts are the best.

no Ren, make up sex is the best.

[Ren 75]

you caught my drift!

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Like I said above. No offense to the original posted who started this thread. I just hope in the future you will make the poll choices less limited. They are like opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Justin 2]

you caught my drift!

You see? It's always about sex.

Justin -In joke.

[Ren 75]

it is always about sex. . . .isn't it???

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Oh come on, like you don't intentionally bring it on, Ren.

Ray Barnsbury

[nja 0]

Even the essence of this thread is meaningless. By "Harry Potter stories" you make it to mean the general storyline of the books, as that is where Harry Potter began. If you mean the films, the general storyline ideas would still be the same. Use screenplay if that's what you really mean.

Screenplay- film- whatever. I didn?t go into a long explanation in the thread title, but the poll question and original post are pretty clear we're talking about the films.

. . . I realize the HP films were adapted from rather lengthy books, but still- isn?t it the job of the screenwriter to make things work for film?

and if you read the actual poll question . . .

What of the storylines in HP films?

I don't see how you could get the wrong idea from that.

Regarding your response to the thread title-

. . .my answer: No, but this thread is. Really is.

I never doubted the question would be controversial. Feel free to take it out on me- or the thread. I just thought it was an interesting point worth discussing.

Hey, opinions make the world go round. Even wrong ones like yours- I mean mine of course.