Williams and Ghost writers.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Here's an interesting thread i found at FSM.

Contribution by Neil S. Bulk included.

Comments anyone?

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/post...19613&forumID=1

[Morlock 11]

That's scary.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

Lovely thread.

P.S - I've always loved Angela Morley's arrangements in Boston Pops albums

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Steiner involvement in ROTJ makes some sense.

But I really wonder what parts of E.T. was done by a ghost writer, if any?

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

I've also heard of ghost writers in the early times of online film music communities, but it has never been talked about much, Seems like film music taboo.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Like Williams using Orchestrators.....

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

Well, orchestrators are more like copyists from what I've heard they do, usually composers write detailed sketches of the music, but because they have to write down the separate parts, instead of just copying something exactly is why the orchestrator title is used.

Again, all what I said is from what I've read or heard.

Hector - I heard things, I heard things

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes, Hector, this has been said many...many times.

People slavishly repeat that John Williams, their hero, writes ever note himself and that orchestrators do not ad anything to that.

But if he uses ghostwriters on occasion, then it's not so hard to believe his orchestrators "finish up" or "cross the T's and dot the I's" when the schedule gets a bit hairy.

[Morlock 11]

He cuts down the trees for the paper. He invented and personaly hand carved all the insturments, especialy the brass, which he made with his wooden spoon. He invented the 12 note scale. As a matter of fact, he invented the concept of music.

To say anything else is sheer madness.

And, of course- the absolute worst thing John Williams ever wrote is ten times better than the best thing anyone else wrote.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Naturally.

[nja 0]

He cuts down the trees for the paper. He invented and personaly hand carved all the insturments, especialy the brass, which he made with his wooden spoon. He invented the 12 note scale. As a matter of fact, he invented the concept of music.

 To say anything else is sheer madness.

LOL Good call.

[Morn 8]

So, just what parts of ET and ROTJ were ghost written!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I think it's pretty clear that Williams never wrote a single note of Bicycle Chase/ Saying Goodbye.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Haha, talk about disenchantment. Though I'm sure KM would be happy if it was discovered that JW wasn't the composer of the ewok music.

Ray Barnsbury

[King Mark 3,631]

Well,if anything was ghost written,maybe it's that long and boring cue called Land of the Ewoks on the S.E.

K.M.

[Lurker 5]

Well,if anything was ghost written,maybe it's that long and boring cue  called Land of the Ewoks on the S.E.

Are you sure it has nothing to do with the long and boring movie for which that cue was written?

Neil

[Jeshopk 8]

I wants me proof!

John Williams does not use ghost writers. Its all hearsay.

That kind of rumor gets passed around all the time. I had a music teacher who worked with Pat Hollenbeck. He said that Pat was a "ghost writer" on Indy 3. I was a little disappointed, but didn't quite believe, and then I read this quote from Pat Hollenbeck.

"When I got out there I heard these horror stories of orchestrators being handed a page with a title, a key signature and a number of bars and nothing else on it; so orchestrators have developed a mystique as, allegedly, 'the secret composers,' and in many cases it may be true -- but not with John Williams. With him, orchestrating means taking his notes from the little green paper and putting them in the big yellow paper. But it was a tremendous learning experience."

-Pat Hollenbeck

The Boston Globe, page 91, June 18th, 1989

So seeing as how his own colleague told me Pat was a "ghost writer" I don't think it takes too much brain power to realize that people are just jumping to their own conclusions.

Williams can't have time to properly layout the big score for the copyists, but I've never seen evidence that he writes the music with any uncredited help. William Ross got large amounts of credit. And if he was in the usual practice of using ghostwriters, then why didn't he have ghostwriters finish his Attack of the Clones score?

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

I'd say John Morgan is a pretty reliable source.

Marian -

[Morlock 11]

Uh, who's John Morgan?

[Lurker 5]

Uh, who's John Morgan?

I agree with Marian. John Morgan is a reliable source. He works in the industry and has done many score reconstructions over the years and even co-composed the score to the upcoming Starship Troopers 2!

Look at him as an industry insider without an attitude problem.

Neil

[Morlock 11]

I think you might's chosen the wrong quote there. Anyway, is there an even slightely detailed bio out there?

[Jeshopk 8]

John Morgan co-wrote the Starship Troopers 2 music.

He says "I believe Fred Steiner did some work on RETURN OF THE JEDI and we all know about the last Harry Popper film."

"I was sort of assisting Fred at the time and peeked over his shoulder. "

"I just remember Fred being involved and not to what degree. "

"Next time I talk to Fred, I will ask him, but he maybe hesitant to discuss something like this. "

I don't think this is any indication that Williams uses ghost writers. If Steiner helped on a ROTJ cue, it was probably onnthe re-performed cue from the Death Star trench battle. They'd need somebody to lay out tempos for that cue to fit a new scene, and Williams and Wannberg were probably busy timing the new cues and effects.

Again, Morgan began with saying Steiner ghost wrote for Williams, and when probed says

"I just remember Fred being involved and not to what degree. "

Not very credible, and thats the pattern that always follows an implication of ghostwriting, when it comes to Williams.

And "Harry Popper"'s "ghost writer" was credited, so in fact he was an adapter, not a ghost writer.

[Lurker 5]

I think you might's chosen the wrong quote there. Anyway, is there an even slightely detailed bio out there?

Actually, I decided not to be a jerk. The original post was:

Uh, who's John Morgan?

I agree with Marian. John Morgan is a reliable source.

Neil

[Jeshopk 8]

I agree with Marian. John Morgan is a reliable source.

Yes, then why not read what Morgan wrote and agree with me that he doesn't know what Steiner was doing on Return of the Jedi? It's certainly not smart for him to jump to the conclusion that Steiner wrote cues based on Williams' themes. Morgan only said he glanced over Steiner's shoulder and saw him working in some way on music from Return of the Jedi. That could mean any number of things, not necessarily writing an original cue based on themes.

When Williams works with others, he doesn't hide it.

Joseph Williams got credit for the "Lapti Nek" and "Ewok Celebration" English Lyrics.

Joseph was also probably the male vocalist in the AI techno piece.

That explains the stuff on their Agency page.

William Ross got full credit for the cues he wrote on Harry Potter 2.

I don't see why Morgan's story, or Williams' history implicates ghost writing at all.

[Lurker 5]

He then goes on to say, "The only reason some of these composers needed help was for the lack of time. Sometimes a scene gets so reedited, the music must be rethought and rewritten to fit properly. Virtually every composer I know of needed some kind of help at some time in their duties. Whether Liszt helped Korngold or Salinger helped Herrmann, it happens. I never would think less of anyone who happens to need help for lack of time.And it's worse now than ever....that is, the lack of time."

It has nothing to do with ability.

Neil

[Jeshopk 8]

I'm not defending John Williams' ability. I am just stating that I think its an assumption to think Williams uses uncredited ghostwriters to write cues (which ARE original music) that include his themes.

The only two examples Morgan uses for Williams are the Steiner ROTJ example, and Harry Potter 2. Why do people jump to the conclusion that the Steiner example was ghost writing? I'm not defending John Williams' ability. I'm just saying that if he had people write cues for him based on his themes, it would be credited somewhere. Like when Shirley Walker is credited in Nightbreed end credits. Or like the frank discussion of the Star Trek TMP "additional music" by Steiner.

I think its clear (not secretive) when there are difficulties with Williams' schedule to that point. Harry Potter 2 and Attack of the Clones are 2 examples. On HP2, there was a credited adapter, and AOTC, music was retracked from another film (TPM). We know that someone else arranged the Nazi source music from Indy 3, which is traditional source music, not underscore. Not a problem.

Williams takes projects based on his availability. If its a 2 hour score, he needs at least 2 months. He plans ahead and doesn't run out of time. If they make last minute changes, and he doesn't have time to rescore, they edit the music to the movie, or retrack other music. Is it so hard to believe that Williams doesn't take jobs he doesn't have time to complete, except HP2 where he agreed to write original material and give someone else full credit for completing the score?

Clearly, Morgan feels a little tiny bit defensive about ghostwriting and having ghostwriters, so his defense is, everyone uses them, citing HP2 and ROTJ. The HP2 example was not a ghostwriter, and for ROTJ, Morgan even admits he has no idea what work was being done by Steiner, or if it was composing cues.

So where's the proof? We have proof for Goldsmith, as it is well documented, and unhidden, that Steiner wrote a few Star TrekTMP cues. No such documentation or stories exist in the Williams case. This is rumor and assumption.

If there were any clear evidence, I would accept it, but there isn't, and I think Williams would throw in a little credit in the end credits, as he is very auteristic about his own music. Unless he is lying in his interviews, and his orchestrators are lying for him, which some people seem to slyly insinuate.

[Lurker 5]

Perhaps you are missing the point. If a person is acknowledged, they are no longer ghost writing.

Neil

[Jeshopk 8]

You call Morgan's post valid acknowledgement that Steiner wrote an actual cue for Return of the Jedi? That's my point here. I'm not against Williams using Ross and acknowledging him (i agree that's not ghostwriting), but I am against spreading unfounded rumors that people did the same thing Ross did, uncredited, for cues from his other scores.

[Lurker 5]

But (and here's the part you're not quite grasping) we don't know for sure what was done. Yes, I believe that Morgan is a man of integrity and wouldn't lie. Steiner has acknowledged that he's done this sort of work before and every answer he's ever given about his work on Star Trek - The Motion Picture has been nebulous at best. It would not surprise me at all if Steiner worked on some cues on Jedi. Why are you so opposed to this? If you enjoyed the music all along does this change your perception of it? Is that the real issue?

Neil

[Jeshopk 8]

It would not surprise me at all if Steiner worked on some cues on Jedi. Why are you so opposed to this? If you enjoyed the music all along does this change your perception of it?

A) Well it WOULD surprise me if Steiner did for Williams what he did on Star Trek for Goldsmith (writing original music based on his themes) because I think it would be common knowledge by now, the way it is with Star Trek.

B) I AM opposed to this because its misleading to take credit for all the underscore, when someone else wrote some too. Jerry Goldsmith has stopped taking credit for cues he didn't write, presumably because it is misleading and wrong. I would think Williams, too would not be in the habit of allowing himself to get credit for others' compositions.

C) It DOES change my perception of the music. While I would still like it, its not shallow to want to know that your favorite cue is written by Fred Steiner or John Williams. Would a baseball fan just shrug if their favorite batter just had a guy go up to the plate with facial prosthetics that look like him because he was in the restroom?

[Ollie 1,059]

I too believe John Morgan to be a man of integrity plus he also cares a great deal about film music, why else would he spend his time restoring and re-recordiing all of those great scores, and describes himself as a fanboy too.

I believe Steiner was not credited for his work on Star Trek and also has uncredited work on The Greatest Story Ever Told and Airport.

As John Morgan said it was probably 6-7 minutes and I bet a couple of the cues were Superstructure Chase, the Funeral Pyre music and the Sail Barge cue used in the film.

I have no problem with a few cues because the film had so much music maybe Williams didn't have time to do re-writes of cues Lucas didn't approve. Besides you really can't tell the difference in any cue, at least to my ears, and it is based on Williams' material.

[Jeshopk 8]

I agree that Morgan is a man of integrity, because he admits he has no idea what Steiner was doing and that he just glanced over his shoulder and saw him writing on sheet music from Return of the Jedi. To assume that this means he was writing a cue containing unique, original music (ie sail barge and funeral pyre) is a big jump.

Its more likely he was using a timing sheet to make the Superstructure Chase music fit the new scene. There is no original music in that, so it is not uncredited writing.

I'm sure Morgan also has no idea what capacity Angela Morley helped Williams on E.T. Its not like he sat there and watched what she did.

People like John Morgan spend time around lots of orchestrators and helpers who work with composers, and stories get passed around. Composers and musicians are very competetive and they like to spread assumptions if it has a little bit of sensationalism. In my experience, these stories get exaggerated on even the first or second telling. Look at Morgan. He admits he's not sure, but yet he likens Steiner's help with the William Ross help. I told you before, a teacher of mine once said the same thing about Pat Hollenbeck and Indy 3, but that was proven wrong by Pat himself, unless you are going so far to say he's lying.

[TownerFan 4,983]

The fact is: a ghost writer is a person who write music WITHOUT taking credits. If he's been credited, he is an "additional composer". I know this sounds sibilline, but that's the way it works. Probably the only proofs to know exactly who did what are the cue sheets.

I believe the crediting of a collaborator has to do also with unions and guilds rules. Take this example too: Herbert W. Spencer was in many cases credited as the only orchestrator in Williams' scores. But the reality is that there were at least other four-five people who contributed with some orchestrations. Williams himself acknowledged in an interview (Films&Filming, October 1978) that in the first Star Wars score, other than Spencer, also Angela Morley, Al Woodbury, Arthur Morton and Williams himself did the orchestrations for that score. But only Spencer received credit in the film.

I think Williams is an honest gentleman and a real composer and I think he doesn't want to take credit for music he hasn't composed. So, in his case, probably the "ghost writer" - when he asked his or her help - only "filled the gaps" in some particular points and nothing else. He IS the author of his music.

[Lurker 5]

To assume that this means he was writing a cue containing unique, original music (ie sail barge and funeral pyre) is a big jump.

"Sail Barge Assault" as heard in the movie utilizes a lot of previously written material from Star Wars. Keep in mind these are our guesses, we have no actual proof.

Neil

[TownerFan 4,983]

People like John Morgan spend time around lots of orchestrators and helpers who work with composers, and stories get passed around. Composers and musicians are very competetive and they like to spread assumptions if it has a little bit of sensationalism. In my experience, these stories get exaggerated on even the first or second telling.

While I completely trust Morgan's sincerity, I belive too that probably there are a lot of this kind of stories in the industry, especially concerning ghost writing. Probably some of them are blown-up from telling to telling... and probably others are true as real facts. But it's a common thing in every part of the world: some time ago, I knew a guy (a musician) here in Italy who studied with people whom have worked with Ennio Morricone. He said to me that they told him that even Morricone uses ghost writers...

[Jeshopk 8]

I got involved in the Williams ghostwriting debate over at filmscoremonthly (click above link in original post for thread). John Morgan elaborated on his knowledge of Fred Steiner's involvement with Return of the Jedi. As I explained to him, none of what he said proves that Steiner was working on any original bars of music. Even if what Steiner was doing was editorial in nature, it would still require trying things out on the piano, and making playable sheet music out of it. It could still just be Superstructure Chase, which is all Williams, but edited into a new cue and reperformed.

But he has me intrigued enough to seek confirmation by looking at the manuscripts in Williams' office. Anyone know how we could turn this into a request for a "study project" so we can find out for sure? Any California residents who are respected music scholars? We could make a proposal.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Jeshopk has a great point about AOC.

Why they did not hire a ghost writer to score at least some music for the battle? (it would not be new in SW, since ROJ supposedly has ghostwritten parts...)

[Lurker 5]

Jeshopk has a great point about AOC.

Why they did not hire a ghost writer to score at least some music for the battle? (it would not be new in SW, since ROJ supposedly has ghostwritten parts...)

My guess is because there was no time to write and then record the music with the LSO. I bet that scene was completed at such a late date that tracking was all they could do with it. Besides, tracking it is much cheaper.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Well....

is ben burt a ghostwriter too?

[Lurker 5]

Well....

is ben burt a ghostwriter too?

No because:

A. He is fully credited on the film

B. He didn't write any music

C. It probably wasn't his job to cut the music

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Isnt the percusion in the arena music?

[Lurker 5]

Isnt the percusion in the arena music?

Is there? I haven't seen it in a year. If so, it's more source than anything else I would think, and not dramatic underscore.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

You should watch that movie more often

[Lurker 5]

You should watch that movie more often

I'd rather have a colonoscopy.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Well... everyone has his priorities...

[King Mark 3,631]

. It could still just be Superstructure Chase, which is all Williams, but edited into a new cue and reperformed.

.

I don't think it's actually Williams who arranged the Superstructure Chase cue,If it was him it would be much better and the old ANH stuff would be mixed with some new transitions,like he did for Sail Barge Assault.

K.M.

[Ollie 1,059]

I think some of you are taking this matter waaaayyyy too seriously.

Yes I believe Ben Burtt did add some percussion to the Arena Battle as sound effects.

[Lurker 5]

I think some of you are taking this matter waaaayyyy too seriously.

But a colonoscopy is something that should be done!

Neil

[Ollie 1,059]

I think I can wait..........

[King Mark 3,631]

Yes I believe Ben Burtt did add some percussion to the Arena Battle as sound effects.

It's not a matter of believing it or not,Ben Burtt outright says so in the AotC bonus disk feature on the sound effects editing,and it was meant for the conveyor belt sequence.The started off as sound effects but served more as "music" in the end.

K.M.