Running out of ideas?

[tony69 0]

I've noticed that Williams copies himself many times.

For example, alot of his action cues uses the following rhythmic pattern in trumpets.

Key: / = eigth note, | = barline, = eight rest

6/8 / / / / / / | / / /

I've heard snippets in JP, MR (and I think HP-SS and ET.)

Then of course, he used a JP melody in AOTC. In the last minute of My Friend, Brachiosaurus, he has a flute solo which sounds just like something used in AOTC.

Other than the blatant copying of Yoda's theme in ET (hehe, it was absolutely intentionaly), I'd say the maestro is running out of ideas.

[Johnnyecks 33]

This is the John Williams FAN club, you realize right? Probably not the best place to second guess Williams genius!

[King Mark 3,631]

I say this post was written on purpose to create "trouble".

k.M.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Booom-tzzzz.

Marian - LOL

[Johnnyecks 33]

I have my suspicons (sp) as well.

[King Mark 3,631]

I'd say the maestro is running out of ideas.

Obviously you don't listen much to his music.Are you trying to impress anyone that you can write pseudo-musical annotations?

K.M.annoyed by newcommers who start out by insulting our Master.

[Morlock 11]

I say this is that Horner fan again. Ban them both user names for having multiple identities! And the same goes for anyone else who says anything anti-Williams! They can't possibly be more than one person!

[tony69 0]

Haha, that was interesting. Got slammed. And no, I'm not the horner fan. I'm a williams, newman and goldsmith fan.

Dudes, I've learned to orchestrate from williams, so dont call me a williams hater. I'm a true fan, but i thought it was very interesting as i was listening to all my Wiliams soundtracks (i hate the missouri one tho)while studying.

[Johnnyecks 33]

Hmm... you're a Goldsmith fan and a Newman fan yet you say that Williams is running out of ideas?

Interesting.

I'm no scholar, nor do I study music but on the whole (as a listener) I have found that Goldsmith scores are more and more sounding very reminiscent of each other. Some are complete bores (Looney Tunes did NOTHING for me...). Newman, as well (I'm a HUGE fan of Thomas Newman, I have his entire catalog on cd) his scores are sounding more and more alike.

I'm not criticizing Goldsmith's or Newman's music at all, they're no Horner, but neither is Williams. I am surprised at the originality of each new Williams score. Just because he writes with the same "style" dosen't mean that he is running out of ideas. It just means that he likes writing in that style.......

[Morlock 11]

Haha, that was interesting. Got slammed. And no, I'm not the horner fan. I'm a williams, newman and goldsmith fan.

Dudes, I've learned to orchestrate from williams, so dont call me a williams hater. I'm a true fan, but i thought it was very interesting as i was listening to all my Wiliams soundtracks (i hate the missouri one tho)while studying.

I was joking.

Though I do agree that as ideas go, Williams is way ahead of Goldsmith.

[King Mark 3,631]

I don't think he's running out of ideas,but if I studied and read his written scores,I'm sure certain kind of trademarks or similarities in writing musical phrases recur quite often,although in different form.

For example in POA,there are many places where I can go back to one of his 100+ scores and say it sounds similar to this and that part of a cue,so i guess in musical writing it would be similar.

K.M.

[Justin 2]

This thread confirms what I've suspected all along.

Slashes are indeed cool.

Justin - ///// ///////// //////// ///

[tony69 0]

hehe. johnnyecks. wrong newman.

i was talking about EL NEWMAN, monsiour alfred himself, famous for that lovely fanfare. of course, i forgot to mention steiner. absolutely love his now voyager score. if you don't have it, GET IT!!!! It's so good.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Well, considering there are three Newmans who are film composers and are all related it's kinda hard to tell which one you're talking about.

[John Crichton 4]

Or is it that JW has been around so long now that we have become very familiar with his style and things SEEM repetative sometimes. I'm no expert, but when you've been the most popular composer in the world for 30 something years, tons of people scrutinizing every note, it's inevitable that some things might end up sounding similar. I think he's as creative as he ever was.

You single out action cues in particular. In the past few years I am continually amazed at how every action cue he writes has such a distinct feel (yet a similar style) and sound completely original. POA is no exception.

[DarthHornPlayer 0]

There is a thin line between copying and having your own sound. Take

Brucker for instance, I don't think anyone would call him a poor

composer but most of his syphonies sound the same and use much

the same melodic structures. He most always ends the sympony the

same way and uses terraced dynmaics all the time...is this

poor writting or the Brucker sound?

Im sure we all have been listening to a new Williams piece and we

suddenly think to ourselves...yes that is Williams! He has a sound

that is his own, I agree there is a rhythmic pulse in much of the

music, maybe even the same pulse given as an example here,but

I can assure you that it isn't a lack of ideas but a style of writing

which is all Williams!

DHP

@()

[nja 0]

Take Brucker for instance, I don't think anyone would call him a poor

composer but most of his syphonies sound the same and use much

the same melodic structures. . .I can assure you that it isn't a lack of ideas but a style of writing

which is all Williams!

DHP

@()

True enough.

Take a listen to the Beethoven symphonies and sonatas listening for the da, da, da, l Daaaa . . . (or rather ///l/--------) You'll find it more than once I can tell you. Mozart and Chopin have their similar trademarks.

These are some of the greatest composers that ever lived. Get a life- John Williams is one guy and we're surprised to find that there are similarities in his various works? I'd be surprised if there wasn't.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I'll tell you who is REALLY running out of ideas: Hollywood!

These guys keep making remakes left and right. Hell, even Spielberg is getting in on the act now.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Williams and Goldsmith running out of ideas? This is news to me.

[A24 4,331]

I'll tell you who is REALLY running out of ideas: Hollywood!  

These guys keep making remakes left and right.

LOL

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I cannot believe they are bringing out a remake of The Manchurian Candidate later this year.

How is the movie going to work without the Cold War paranoia?

[Nimbus1944 0]

How is the movie going to work without the Cold War paranoia?

As I hear it, the brainwashers will be closer to home this time. For fear of getting into the forbidden topic of politics, I leave it at that.

Mike

[Morlock 11]

I cannot believe they are bringing out a remake of The Manchurian Candidate later this year.  

How is the movie going to work without the Cold War paranoia?

I'm actually looking foward to that one. Jonathan Demme directing, and a great cast, including Denael Washington, Maryl Streep and Liev Schriber, who's finaly getting some worthy roles.

[Morn 8]

Using similar rhythms is hardly what I call self plagiarizing. It's probably something all composers are guilty of.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Well, considering there are three Newmans who are film composers and are all related it's kinda hard to tell which one you're talking about.

There are at least four Newmans who are/were film composers, and at least five related to film music. But when someone only say "Newman", one should assume it's the big one, i.e. Alfred. Of course, I wasn't certain myself if that's the one we were talking about.

Thumbs up for the Bruckner example, Darth. Though since the original post was about rhythm, I guess the Bruckner Rhythm should be mentioned as well.

Marian - who found a quote from Bruckner's 4th in Basic Instinct yesterday.

Basic Instinct (Jerry Goldsmith)

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

By related I meant genetically, but I only know of the three (Alfred, Thomas and Randy). Are there more of them?!

[Ren 75]

I'll tell you what's running out of ideas. . . . i swear since i've been here, this topic has been a 'new' thread at least a dozen times. . .

enough already.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Marian - who found a quote from Bruckner's 4th in Basic Instinct yesterday.

8O Basic Instinct (Jerry Goldsmith)

I'm sure Goldsmith did that deliberatly, and improved upon it.

[Lurker 5]

Other than the blatant copying of Yoda's theme in ET (hehe, it was absolutely intentionaly), I'd say the maestro is running out of ideas. 8O

"Blatant copying" implies that he was trying to get one over on the audience, that maybe he was trying to pass off others music as his own. The quick Yoda quote was a fun moment in the film where a beloved character appeared on screen. It's no different than the Superman theme appearing in The Goonies. Was Dave Grusin just copying John Williams there?

Neil

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I'm sure Goldsmith did that deliberatly, and improved upon it.

I don't doubt it's deliberate, and it works well. But there is not and will never be any room for improvement in the coda of the 4th.

Marian - more confused by Goldsmith's Shostakovich ripoff for BI.

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban

[woodwindmaster06 0]

HAVE YOU HEARD POA and you tell me he is out of ideas, that score is filled with a new look, new themes and he is definitly not running out of ideas, just wait until Terminal comes out this should be quite different with even more new ideas!!!

[Morn 8]

Ahh yes, but some of the action music is still quite Attack of the Clones like.

[MSM 126]

I think the fact that Williams'music is getting more and more like stuff that has already been written can only mean there's no more original music to be written.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

OR that the guy doesn't feel he needs to experiment and just wants to give us enjoyable music. Which is FINE by me.

[Morn 8]

I think the fact that Williams'music is getting more and more like stuff that has already been written can only mean there's no more original music to be written.

IsWilliams less original today than he was 20 years ago? I'd say he's more original today.... I think he's putting more effort into experimenting today, just listen to some of the brass writing in the action music of AOTC. Or Forward To Time Past which actually featured some instruments recorded and played back in reverse!

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

IsWilliams less original today than he was 20 years ago? I'd say he's more original today.... I think he's putting more effort into experimenting today, just listen to some of the brass writing in the action music of AOTC. Or Forward To Time Past which actually featured some instruments recorded and played back in reverse!

That could also be a sign that he IS running out of ideas, and is desperate to do anything. No that in itself doesn't work, but of course we know that he has always experimented...it's his 'style' I guess, and it's one of the things I appreciate most of him, unlike so many other composers, and that does work in his favor. The Knight Bus is one of his latest concoctions.

BTW, Williams also reinvents (aka rediscovers) in my opinion.

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

OR that the guy doesn't feel he needs to experiment and just wants to give us enjoyable music. Which is FINE by me.

Wrong, we like him because he did things differently, not the same. The beauty and brilliance is that he usually is able to get both in the same piece.

[Morn 8]

Did he really do something differently, or did he recreate the achievements of the best film composers of the past in new ways.

That could also be a sign that he IS running out of ideas, and is desperate to do anything.

Well I doubt it, I think he wants to push himself further.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

IsWilliams less original today than he was 20 years ago? I'd say he's more original today....

Much more original, if you ask me. His big blockbuster scores from the 70s and early 80s are great, but somewhat "generic", if I dare say so. His really original scores from that time are probably Images, CE3K and The Fury.

Nowadays, his music is distinctively Williams by its sound, not just its quality. And POA shows that he can still come up with great, innovative stuff.

Marian - listening to the POA CD for the second time only.

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban

[Rogue_Leader 2]

OR that the guy doesn't feel he needs to experiment and just wants to give us enjoyable music. Which is FINE by me.

Wrong, we like him because he did things differently, not the same. The beauty and brilliance is that he usually is able to get both in the same piece.

Hey I preffered Williams when he was banging out one melodic traditional score after another.

[Morn 8]

Much more original, if you ask me.

Yeah, and if he was running out of ideas he'd still sound like he did 20 years ago. POA proves beyond all doubt that he is not running out of ideas.

[MadFrenchBird 0]

I agree that he certainly isn't running out of ideas; he keeps trying new stuff - different music style, instruments, experimentations, etc.

He's got his own signature - so we always know it's a John Williams sound - and we love it

[MSM 126]

With every new Williams album I think: Will there be finally music which he has not written already in some way before?

Fortunately Williams' music always has something special but still I can't help worrying sometimes, thinking: Everything has been said. We have heard all kinds of themes which can be composed and new music only fills in the stylistical gaps in between existing pieces of music. This is a developement which can actually be seen in reality when looking at the different music styles. Most new music is 'only' a combination of things that already existed. I think it counts for Williams' music as well.

So I think: The more music is being written, the more difficult it becomes to write something really original.

[MSM 126]

Nowadays, his music is distinctively Williams by its sound, not just its quality. And POA shows that he can still come up with great, innovative stuff.

I would regard that as a deterioration rather than an improvement. Ok, Williams music always has it's own standards which we all love but it is worrying a bit that thematically his music becomes less distinctive. And I agree that PoA is great, but it is in no way innovative.

[Morn 8]

Well, a very strong distinctive style is something that composers are expected to have. POA might not be extremely innovative, but listen to Forward To Time Past, some parts of it are played in reverse!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He's still no Goldsmith, in this respect.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I'd say the maestro is running out of ideas.

The Maestro does not run out of ideas... He just like some of them, very much.

[Omen II 1,235]

By related I meant genetically, but I only know of the three (Alfred, Thomas and Randy). Are there more of them?!

Magical,

There are also David (brother of Thomas and cousin of Randy) as well as Alfred's brothers Emil and Lionel, plus some others I have probably forgotten. Alfred (who was the eldest of 10 children), great composer though he was, used to reuse whole chunks of his best scores in several movies. It was common practice in Hollywood and really always has been. It is only recently, when fans have been able to scrutinise almost every score on CD, that self-plagiarism has become an issue.

Damien beerchug